Why don't post-modern Christians regard Book of Hermas as Scripture?

7,255 Views | 129 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by codker92
codker92
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Apparently the bounds to which the post-modern Christian will go to cherry pick what they like is endless. While the average post-modern finds the church fathers authoritative in many aspects, they cringe when they actually learn what the church fathers actually believe, especially when it comes to the idea of the supernatural world and life before creation. I ask my post-modern friends, if you think that the church fathers are the context of the scripture where is the Pastor of Hermas in your bible?

Among the early Christians, the idea of a preexistent church appears explicitly in the hugely influential text The Pastor of Hermas. Harnack describes the development as a segue from Jewish antecedents:

"If the world was created for the sake of the people of Israel, and the Apocalyptists expressly taught that, then it follows that in the thought of God, Israel is older than the world. The idea of pre-existence of the people of Israel follows from this. We can still see this process of thought very plainly in the Shepherd of Hermas, who expressly declares that the world was created for the sake of the Church. In consequence of this, he maintains that the Church was very old, and was created before the foundation of the world. Harnack, History of Dogma, 1:324."

The second century text was considered scripture by many of the earliest Christians and was EVEN BOUND WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT IN SOME CODICES!!! The text has the account of five visions, interspersed with several parables and commandments given to the former slave Hermas. In it we find the most emphatic ancient expression of the preexistent church. Appearing in a vision, a beautiful lady addresses the shepherd with this preface: "Hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, ... multiplied and increased them on account of His Holy Church.: That the church here referred to has its roots in the pre-mortal world is explicitly stated soon after. Hermas mis-takes a different female figure for a sibyl, but a messenger of the revelation quickly corrects him: "It is the Church." Hermas asks, "When then is she an old woman?" and is told, "Because . . . she was created first of all. On account of this she is old. And for her sake the world was made." Pastor of Hermas, I.1.1, 2.4, tans. F. Crombie (ANF 2:9,12).

The allusion is to none other than Ephesians 4:11-13, which describes the purpose of the church which Christ instituted, with its apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, as nothing less than "the building up of the body of Christ," till the saints all come to "maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ." Indeed, the intertextual allusion seems confirmed by Hermas' subsequent vision of the construction of a tower, with stones representing "apostles, bishops, teachers, and deacons,: and a summary explanation of God's dispensation of mercy and righteousness intended to make the shepherd "righteous and holy." Pastor of Hermas, I.3.5.,9 (ANF 2:14, 16). This is in direct opposition to the Platonic idea of pre-existence. Plato thought that mere life itself resulted in moral betterment, but Christian thought the church results in moral betterment. The established church is the particular medium envisioned for the amelioration of the human spirit.

That the Shepherd (or Pastor) of Hemas has these views is weighty. Iraneus, one of the earliest church fathers, was instrumental in deciding New Testament Canon. He endorsed the four Gospels, Acts, Revelation, and all of the epistles except Philemon, 2 Peter, 3 John, and Jude. BUT, he considered 1 Clement and Pastor of Hermas as scripture. See note to Iraneus, Against Heresies IV.20.2 (ANF 1:488).
Tertullian also considered the Pastor of Hermas as scripture. Origen and and Clement referenced it.

The Author of Pastor of Hermas admonishes their audience to "do the will of God our Father, we shall be of the first church, the spiritual one, that was created before the sun and the moon." Seeming to recognize that it might surprise readers, the author adds "the books and apostles say that the church not only exists now, but has done so from the beginning, For she was spiritual as our Jesus also was." "The So-Called Second Letter of Clement" XIV.1-2, in The Apostolic Fathers, trans. Edgard J. Goodspeed (New York: Harper, 1950), 91.

The analogy of the pre-existence of Christ may also carry beyond the community to the collective, to those individuals who make it up. If we are in Christ, we also pre-exist. "This flesh", the author 2 Clement writes, is the "counterpart and copy of the spirit." In other words, the body and soul are not of two natures, but the body is the copy of the spiritual nature. This is different than Platonic thought. Jewish conceptions of a covenant or soul that precede birth existed before Plato and they influenced the Jewish Christian writers. This are summed up in three uniquely Jewish ideas

(1) the idea of promise and fulfillment suggests that the future is all already in God's mind
(2)the material presence of God's Name foreshadows the idea of pre-existent hypostases
(3) the vision of the prophets (Jeremiah) imply the existence of a heavenly world "which contains pre-existent things"
R.G. Hamerton-Kelly, Pre-Existence, Wisdom, and the Son of Man: A Study of the Idea of Pre-Existence in the New Testament (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1973; repr. Eugene, Ore.: Wipf and Stock, 200), 16.
Gerals Bostock, "The Sources of Origen's Doctrine of Pre-Existence," in Origeniana Quarta, Die Referate des 4. Internationalen Origenskongresses, ed. Lothar Lies (Innsbruck: Tyrolia, 1987), 261.

So what is gonna be post-moderns? Are you gonna put Pastor of Hermas in your bible?

jkag89
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Not every popular early Christian writing, even those believed to be scripture by some Church Fathers necessarily belongs in the Bible. Are they valuable in understanding early Christian thought and hence worthy of study, sure. Still does not necessarily mean they belong in the canon of scripture.
codker92
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The fact that the early church spent an inordinate amount of resources putting it in a codex indicates they thought it was scripture. I thought that being close to the time of Jesus gave them a better context or authority?

This is blatant cherry picking.
Nasreddin
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Pascal said " All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone." This means several things to me, but my biggest takeaway is to stop worrying about what other people do and think. Unless you believe your salvation is directly tied to what other people believe, I don't see why anyone would care. Someone else's beliefs have no bearing on mine.

Of course, if the question is posed for open discussion it's a different situation entirely.
codker92
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I think that is ok for some but we are talking about weighty subjects. And besides, these post moderns are actively touting their own opinion whilst persecuting those they disagree with.
dermdoc
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I am no expert, but I believe the Shepherd of Hermas advocates Donatism in one part which was one of the reasons for removing it from the Canon.

And persecution is a pretty strong word. I know that Christians are being persecuted around the world for professing faith in Christ.

I am not aware of anyone being persecuted over their belief that the Shepherd of Hermas should be in the Canon.
dermdoc
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And since the Shepherd of Hermas seems to have been removed by the 4th century, do you consider that time period post modern?

Everything that I google says post modern thinking began in the 1940s?
Frok
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I don't regard it as scripture because the early canon didn't include it. I figure they knew better than me.
PacifistAg
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Who, where, and how is anyone being persecuted over this?
Faithful Ag
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Quote:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


God revealed his Church through the lives of men throughout history....Through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, and through the prophets, and ultimately and quite literally through the Blessed Virgin Mary.

God Incarnate, Jesus Christ, became man and humbled himself to enter this sinful world so that we could come to know and believe in Him, and he sacrificed himself on the cross for us and rose from the dead conquering death. He fulfilled all that was prophesied about him from the beginning. Only by and through Christ are we saved.

Christ chose to reveal Himself through his Holy Church, filled with sinful people who need his perfect love. While incarnate, Jesus revealed and established his visible Church for us. He appointed it's leadership in Peter and the Apostles, along with the other disciples (about 72 which also has authoritative significance). He gave to this visible church on earth his authority and his promise to protect and guide his church through the Holy Spirit for all the ages. He sent the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth.

The Church is a living Church and is much more than a book or compilation of texts. Jesus did not leave us a book. He left us a Church. Through that Church full of sinful men the Scriptures were written and collected. Through this same church WHAT writings were to be treated as scripture was discerned, debated, and accepted. Through that process the Church discerned and decided not to include the Shepherd of Hermas despite the fact that up until that decision some in some places had considered it a part of the Scriptures. The church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, decided otherwise. Therefore this writing was not included in the Canon.

We don't need a history lesson because we have the church and the faith that has been passed down through the church with the promise of Christ that the darkness will not prevail against It. We don't need to be an ANE expert or Greek scholar or fluent in Hebrew or Aramaic to have the Truth. Sorry. We need Jesus and we are able to come to know him fully through the Church he blessed us with and gave to us.
Nasreddin
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I didn't know they were pushing it. I wouldn't even know a postmodern Christian if I had one preaching to me lol. Well, the quote applies to their post modern asses as well!
Zobel
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This is a really weird post. The scriptures absolutely teach that the world was created with a plan in mind, fore-ordained, and the entire order of creation was laid out for the deification of Man. So I don't see why this idea is presented as some shocking evidence.

However it does not follow that because the world was created with an end or telos in mind that the parts or players in that end preexist the world. If I buy an oven to bake a cake, only an idiot would say that is evidence that the cake existed before the oven. There's a categorical error, here, in understanding correct thought - that God foreknows and has an end in mind for all created things - and conflating it with incorrect thought - that this means things existed as such. That the logoi of creation exist within the Logos means He pre-exists and anything that does exist exists by and through Him. Not that they pre-exist alongside Him.

What is bound in a codex has never been the criterion for scripture. Many codices contain prayers, hymns, and other liturgical materials right alongside the scriptures. Most of our manuscripts come from liturgical books - because that's how scripture mostly existed.

And St Irenaeus wasn't instrumental in establishing the canon. He's a witness to what writings were in use and what were authoritative. But he's not the only witness, and to look at him as if he were writing on the canon (he wasn't) or as if there weren't others who were specifically writing on the canon (there were) or as if he were the only witness to what was considered reliable and authoritative (he's not) is cherry picking.

To project a modern idea of canon, as both these do ("bound in a book" or "referred to as authoritative") is an error. The criterion for scripture was what was read aloud in the church as scripture.

The Shepherd is a good book, and useful for teaching. But it isn't scripture, because the church has never used it in this way.
Zobel
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Also, this idea that the church fathers are the context of the scriptures is an idiotic premise that no one is arguing. The last time you brought it up the idea was pantsed and ridiculed. Why do we have to go through this again?

Can you provide any evidence of any "post-modern" cringing at the idea of the supernatural world? And can you provide any evidence of a church father teaching life before creation?

Your combination of plagiarism and misapplication of other peoples words and research is tiresome.

My prediction is you'll not answer anything here, insult some people with galaxy brain crushing taunts like postmodern, boomer, and skinny pants wearer, then vanish to start another similarly plagiarized and poorly thought-out argument.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Shouldn't you also be asking why post-first 1500 years of Christianity Christians have the same OT that were considered canonical for the first millennium of Christian history.
747Ag
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I'm still struggling to understand what the OP means when stating "post-modern Christians"...
Zobel
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So is he.
codker92
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So the early church just coincidentally included the book alongside essentially the entire New Testament? I don't buy it.
codker92
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Faithful Ag said:

Quote:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


God revealed his Church through the lives of men throughout history....Through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, and through the prophets, and ultimately and quite literally through the Blessed Virgin Mary.

God Incarnate, Jesus Christ, became man and humbled himself to enter this sinful world so that we could come to know and believe in Him, and he sacrificed himself on the cross for us and rose from the dead conquering death. He fulfilled all that was prophesied about him from the beginning. Only by and through Christ are we saved.

Christ chose to reveal Himself through his Holy Church, filled with sinful people who need his perfect love. While incarnate, Jesus revealed and established his visible Church for us. He appointed it's leadership in Peter and the Apostles, along with the other disciples (about 72 which also has authoritative significance). He gave to this visible church on earth his authority and his promise to protect and guide his church through the Holy Spirit for all the ages. He sent the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth.

The Church is a living Church and is much more than a book or compilation of texts. Jesus did not leave us a book. He left us a Church. Through that Church full of sinful men the Scriptures were written and collected. Through this same church WHAT writings were to be treated as scripture was discerned, debated, and accepted. Through that process the Church discerned and decided not to include the Shepherd of Hermas despite the fact that up until that decision some in some places had considered it a part of the Scriptures. The church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, decided otherwise. Therefore this writing was not included in the Canon.

We don't need a history lesson because we have the church and the faith that has been passed down through the church with the promise of Christ that the darkness will not prevail against It. We don't need to be an ANE expert or Greek scholar or fluent in Hebrew or Aramaic to have the Truth. Sorry. We need Jesus and we are able to come to know him fully through the Church he blessed us with and gave to us.


So the early church just coincidentally included the book alongside essentially the entire New Testament? I don't buy it.
Zobel
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Which codex, and what were the contents of the codex? Where was it placed within the codex? How many codices included the Shepherd of Hermas?

Your argument - you provide the evidence.
codker92
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PacifistAg said:

Who, where, and how is anyone being persecuted over this?


Read the post I don't include persecution anywhere.
codker92
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Zobel said:

Which codex, and what were the contents of the codex? Where was it placed within the codex? How many codices included the Shepherd of Hermas?

Your argument - you provide the evidence.


Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Claromontanus

It is labeled as part of New Testament in Sinaiticus and is after Acts but before Pauline letters in Claro.
codker92
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Faithful Ag said:

Quote:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


God revealed his Church through the lives of men throughout history....Through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, and through the prophets, and ultimately and quite literally through the Blessed Virgin Mary.

God Incarnate, Jesus Christ, became man and humbled himself to enter this sinful world so that we could come to know and believe in Him, and he sacrificed himself on the cross for us and rose from the dead conquering death. He fulfilled all that was prophesied about him from the beginning. Only by and through Christ are we saved.

Christ chose to reveal Himself through his Holy Church, filled with sinful people who need his perfect love. While incarnate, Jesus revealed and established his visible Church for us. He appointed it's leadership in Peter and the Apostles, along with the other disciples (about 72 which also has authoritative significance). He gave to this visible church on earth his authority and his promise to protect and guide his church through the Holy Spirit for all the ages. He sent the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth.

The Church is a living Church and is much more than a book or compilation of texts. Jesus did not leave us a book. He left us a Church. Through that Church full of sinful men the Scriptures were written and collected. Through this same church WHAT writings were to be treated as scripture was discerned, debated, and accepted. Through that process the Church discerned and decided not to include the Shepherd of Hermas despite the fact that up until that decision some in some places had considered it a part of the Scriptures. The church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, decided otherwise. Therefore this writing was not included in the Canon.

We don't need a history lesson because we have the church and the faith that has been passed down through the church with the promise of Christ that the darkness will not prevail against It. We don't need to be an ANE expert or Greek scholar or fluent in Hebrew or Aramaic to have the Truth. Sorry. We need Jesus and we are able to come to know him fully through the Church he blessed us with and gave to us.


What did He provide before He was on earth?
Zobel
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There are no "labels" in the Codex Sinaiticus. You can see the pages yourself here. It goes from Job to the next page, which simply says at the top "According to Matthew". Yes Shepherd is at the end.

The Codex Claromontanus is only a manuscript of the Pauline epistles. It doesn't contain Shepherd or anything else other than that. When found there was also a catalogue of books with the number of lines of each book called a stichometric catalogue in the pages, written by a different hand.

That stichometric catalogue does list Hermas, and it is after acts - but not after the Pauline letters. Here is the whole list. The list of the NT is as follows:


Quote:

Four Gospels:
Matthew
John
Mark
Luke
Epistles of Paul:
To Romans
To Corinthians 1
To Corinthians 2
To Galatians
To Ephesians
To Timothy 1
To Timothy 2
To Titus
To Colossians
To Philemon
-To Peter 1
To Peter 2
Of James
Of John
Of John 2
Of John 3
Of Jude
-Of Barnabas
Revelation of John
Acts of the Apostles
-Shepherd
-Acts of Paul
-Revelation of Peter
The dashes above are original to the list, they're called obeli and these lines are said to be obelized. Most people take it to mean that these books are spurious.

At any rate, you're not correct on either case.

Only one of the four major codices have Shepherd. Do we then say it is not scripture? What about numerous witnesses of explicit canonical lists that themselves say are complete, and exclusive, which omit it?

Now that we've established that, how about you address your error that simply by including the book in a codex means it is scripture? For example, the Codex Alexandrinus has the book of Odes in it, which is used liturgically. But that is not scripture. It also contains 1 and 2 Clement, which Sinai does not. Does that make them scripture?

You're missing the definition of scripture.

PacifistAg
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codker92 said:

PacifistAg said:

Who, where, and how is anyone being persecuted over this?


Read the post I don't include persecution anywhere.

I'm talking about this post you made:

I think that is ok for some but we are talking about weighty subjects. And besides, these post moderns are actively touting their own opinion whilst persecuting those they disagree with.

So who, where, and how are people being persecuted for this?
PacifistAg
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747Ag said:

I'm still struggling to understand what the OP means when stating "post-modern Christians"...

I think the most clear understanding of what they mean is "a Christian who disagrees with him". Which, of course, highlights the fact that he doesn't actually know what "post-modern" means.
Faithful Ag
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Everything. He provided everything because everything that was made was made through him.

The early Church was working though a lot of issues and did so through the living and visible church that had leadership and bishops and a process guided by the Holy Spirit. When differing views, understanding, and beliefs were made known or came up the church discerned and determined what was right and what was wrong. The church fathers were not correct on everything 100% of the time as individuals, but collectively the church was led into all truth through the Holy Spirit. Because a particular writing happened to be included in a particular codex at a particular time in a particular place does not make that writing on the level of Holy Scripture.

Christ established and instituted His Church on the men he chose and sent to do his will. Through his appointed leaders (Peter and the Apostles, and his chosen disciples) He promised to guide and protect and lead into all through throughout the ages. This Church does not consider the Shepherd of Hermas to be Scripture so that is why it is not Scripture.

Codker92 is not a more reliable or trustworthy source in 2021 over what is and is not scripture compared the the Church that was established by Christ.

codker92
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Zobel said:

There are no "labels" in the Codex Sinaiticus. You can see the pages yourself here. It goes from Job to the next page, which simply says at the top "According to Matthew". Yes Shepherd is at the end.

The Codex Claromontanus is only a manuscript of the Pauline epistles. It doesn't contain Shepherd or anything else other than that. When found there was also a catalogue of books with the number of lines of each book called a stichometric catalogue in the pages, written by a different hand.

That stichometric catalogue does list Hermas, and it is after acts - but not after the Pauline letters. Here is the whole list. The list of the NT is as follows:


Quote:

Four Gospels:
Matthew
John
Mark
Luke
Epistles of Paul:
To Romans
To Corinthians 1
To Corinthians 2
To Galatians
To Ephesians
To Timothy 1
To Timothy 2
To Titus
To Colossians
To Philemon
-To Peter 1
To Peter 2
Of James
Of John
Of John 2
Of John 3
Of Jude
-Of Barnabas
Revelation of John
Acts of the Apostles
-Shepherd
-Acts of Paul
-Revelation of Peter
The dashes above are original to the list, they're called obeli and these lines are said to be obelized. Most people take it to mean that these books are spurious.

At any rate, you're not correct on either case.

Only one of the four codices have Shepherd. Do we then say it is not scripture? What about numerous witnesses of explicit canonical lists that themselves say are complete, and exclusive, which omit it?

Now that we've established that, how about you address your error that simply by including the book in a codex means it is scripture? For example, the Codex Alexandrinus has the book of Odes in it, which is used liturgically. But that is not scripture. It also contains 1 and 2 Clement, which Sinai does not. Does that make them scripture?

You're missing the definition of scripture.




It's spurious because you don't like it. Your church fathers wont save you. You are literally making more garbage up.

This is the citation showing Hermas in Sinaiticus.
Chapman, John. (1910). "Hermas." The Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. 7. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 27 September 2017
Zobel
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Seeing as you didn't address anything I wrote, or introduce any new information, or any additional points of discussion, I'll go ahead and call that a concession.

Good talk, sport.
codker92
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PacifistAg said:

codker92 said:

PacifistAg said:

Who, where, and how is anyone being persecuted over this?


Read the post I don't include persecution anywhere.

I'm talking about this post you made:

I think that is ok for some but we are talking about weighty subjects. And besides, these post moderns are actively touting their own opinion whilst persecuting those they disagree with.

So who, where, and how are people being persecuted for this?


Ok someone literally cried Donatist for questioning why we don't read Pastor of Hermas, which is a legitimate question considering that it was in the NT. Considering Donatists were murdered for their beliefs I think it's a fair statement.
codker92
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Those missing books are scripture also.
codker92
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Faithful Ag said:

Everything. He provided everything because everything that was made was made through him.

The early Church was working though a lot of issues and did so through the living and visible church that had leadership and bishops and a process guided by the Holy Spirit. When differing views, understanding, and beliefs were made known or came up the church discerned and determined what was right and what was wrong. The church fathers were not correct on everything 100% of the time as individuals, but collectively the church was led into all truth through the Holy Spirit. Because a particular writing happened to be included in a particular codex at a particular time in a particular place does not make that writing on the level of Holy Scripture.

Christ established and instituted His Church on the men he chose and sent to do his will. Through his appointed leaders (Peter and the Apostles, and his chosen disciples) He promised to guide and protect and lead into all through throughout the ages. This Church does not consider the Shepherd of Hermas to be Scripture so that is why it is not Scripture.

Codker92 is not a more reliable or trustworthy source in 2021 over what is and is not scripture compared the the Church that was established by Christ.




Exactly they just included all the books I think you should read in their NT.
codker92
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Faithful Ag said:

Quote:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


God revealed his Church through the lives of men throughout history....Through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, and through the prophets, and ultimately and quite literally through the Blessed Virgin Mary.

God Incarnate, Jesus Christ, became man and humbled himself to enter this sinful world so that we could come to know and believe in Him, and he sacrificed himself on the cross for us and rose from the dead conquering death. He fulfilled all that was prophesied about him from the beginning. Only by and through Christ are we saved.

Christ chose to reveal Himself through his Holy Church, filled with sinful people who need his perfect love. While incarnate, Jesus revealed and established his visible Church for us. He appointed it's leadership in Peter and the Apostles, along with the other disciples (about 72 which also has authoritative significance). He gave to this visible church on earth his authority and his promise to protect and guide his church through the Holy Spirit for all the ages. He sent the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth.

The Church is a living Church and is much more than a book or compilation of texts. Jesus did not leave us a book. He left us a Church. Through that Church full of sinful men the Scriptures were written and collected. Through this same church WHAT writings were to be treated as scripture was discerned, debated, and accepted. Through that process the Church discerned and decided not to include the Shepherd of Hermas despite the fact that up until that decision some in some places had considered it a part of the Scriptures. The church, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit, decided otherwise. Therefore this writing was not included in the Canon.

We don't need a history lesson because we have the church and the faith that has been passed down through the church with the promise of Christ that the darkness will not prevail against It. We don't need to be an ANE expert or Greek scholar or fluent in Hebrew or Aramaic to have the Truth. Sorry. We need Jesus and we are able to come to know him fully through the Church he blessed us with and gave to us.


The church says that Hermas was alongside scripture until they decided they didn't like it anymore.

Chapman, John. (1910). "Hermas." The Catholic Encyclopedia Vol. 7. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 27 September 2017

Time is a construct of particulate matter. If the church is in Christ it is eternal and thus the church which has Shepherd of Hermas as scripture is the one I am in.
LGBFJB
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Nvm
PacifistAg
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codker92 said:

PacifistAg said:

codker92 said:

PacifistAg said:

Who, where, and how is anyone being persecuted over this?


Read the post I don't include persecution anywhere.

I'm talking about this post you made:

I think that is ok for some but we are talking about weighty subjects. And besides, these post moderns are actively touting their own opinion whilst persecuting those they disagree with.

So who, where, and how are people being persecuted for this?


Ok someone literally cried Donatist for questioning why we don't read Pastor of Hermas, which is a legitimate question considering that it was in the NT. Considering Donatists were murdered for their beliefs I think it's a fair statement.

You weren't talking in past tense. You said these, actively, and persecuting. Your statement is not about the past, but the present. So who is actively being persecuted in context of this thread? Where? How?

And mentioning Donatists is not "cried". Goodness, you are incapable of rational discussion.
jkag89
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Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia article mentioned by codker92 just in case you don't trust his rather brief summary,
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