AgLiving06 - Israel

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Zobel
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9:40p, 5/11/21
AG
Quote:
This negotiation - what does it entail? You've established a way to get to the table. But what I think is there's no solution that ends the conflict that will be acceptable to either party. The Israelis aren't going to trust the Palestinians with an open border and anything resembling an economy - with good reason. And they can't make them part of Israel. anything less than than either of those doesn't actually *do* anything. What do you think? How would you structure a negotiation?

You are wrong. It's that simple. To do otherwise is to ignore terrorism.

Lets stop the terrorism and figure out a solution.


Moving this over here because people were complaining I was interrupting their rocket viewing entertainment.

I am asking you what figuring out a solution looks like. I agree, the terrorism is futile, wrong, tantamount to murder, inexcusable, and likely any other strong language of condemnation you or anyone else will use.

What I think is a mistake is ascribing the terror as the cause of the negotiating impasse. The status quo was both produced by and produces terrorism. You have to change something or the violence will continue. Stopping terrorism doesn't change the calculus on a geopolitical level for either the Jews in Israel or the Arabs in the Palestinian locations.

The problem as I see it is that you are saying to figure out a solution, but it doesn't seem like anyone has an idea what that solution might be.

When I ask you, you say I'm wrong or that I'm ignoring terrorism. I don't get this when I've repeatedly and clearly said terrorism is wrong and evil - so weird, but in a thread where I've had to clarify that ethnic cleansing is bad, who knows?

But this is a real question. Let's say for the sake of discussion that Hamas is rejected, a reasonable political group takes over. What is the actual solution?

As far as I can tell the only possible way forward is for such a significant change in the Palestinian people to happen that would somehow engender mutual trust and respect between them and Israel. They'd have to have a real economy, trade, freedom of movement - like a normal nation, or something like it. But I don't see the way you get there. Israel views Arab citizens in their own country as a threat as a matter of public policy. Change is then required on both sides.

How do you begin the process? What does it look like?
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one MEEN Ag
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In reply to Zobel • 11:12p, 5/11/21
AG
How do you begin the process? What does it look like?

It starts with confession, repentance, laying down arms, loving your neighbor, and forgiveness with softened hearts.

If only there was some figure, from that area, that taught those things those groups could look to as an example.
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Zobel
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11:12p, 5/11/21
AG
Also I saw a quote earlier I thought was perfect. It said something along the lines of, if you study the conflict for an hour you'll know Israel is right. If you study for twelve, you'll know the Palestinians are right. If you go any further, you'll have no idea who is right.
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craigernaught
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1:47a, 5/12/21
AG
At this point, I have no idea what the Israelis and their supporters want the Palestinians to do. If they vote, their neighborhoods are attacked by settlers. If they protest, they're arrested. If they fight, they're killed. If they take it up to the UN, they're vetoed. If they cooperate, their lands and homes are taken away while everyone "negotiates".

Other than just completely submit to being second class citizens and having their homes stolen from them and moving away, what action can they possibly take that will result in them not being violated and dispossessed of their land and homes? Why do they not deserve equal rights under the law?
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chimpanzee
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7:52a, 5/12/21
Has any group of people managed a convincing argument to support a more valid/moral claim to sovereignty over a disputed piece of land?

Apart from the obvious.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to craigernaught • 8:18a, 5/12/21
AG
craigernaught said:
At this point, I have no idea what the Israelis and their supporters want the Palestinians to do. If they vote, their neighborhoods are attacked by settlers. If they protest, they're arrested. If they fight, they're killed. If they take it up to the UN, they're vetoed. If they cooperate, their lands and homes are taken away while everyone "negotiates".

Other than just completely submit to being second class citizens and having their homes stolen from them and moving away, what action can they possibly take that will result in them not being violated and dispossessed of their land and homes? Why do they not deserve equal rights under the law?
This. People would be surprised, mostly because American media only presents a grossly distorted pro-Israel view of the conflict, to find out just how many nonviolent reconciliation organizations there are in Palestine. But even those promoting nonviolence end up in Israeli prisons, having their homes destroyed by the IOF, or homes outright stolen by settlers.
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Zobel
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In reply to chimpanzee • 8:23a, 5/12/21
AG
I'm not sure I understand this question -more valid than what? Can you rephrase this?
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chimpanzee
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In reply to Zobel • 8:27a, 5/12/21
Zobel said:
I'm not sure I understand this question -more valid than what? Can you rephrase this?

That's the rub, what would be considered valid?

Has anyone ever convinced another to give up their sovereignty over a piece of land without a fight?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to one MEEN Ag • 8:27a, 5/12/21
AG
one MEEN Ag said:
How do you begin the process? What does it look like?

It starts with confession, repentance, laying down arms, loving your neighbor, and forgiveness with softened hearts.

If only there was some figure, from that area, that taught those things those groups could look to as an example.
This reminds me of the group Parents Circle Family Forum. It's made up of families from both sides of the conflict who have lost loved ones due to the violence. We met with them when I was in Hebron. Here's a great story about two fathers who lost daughters, one Israeli and one Palestinian, that's actually about to be turned into a movie by Steven Spielberg:


There's also Jewish Voices for Peace, B'Tselem, Tent of Nations, and BDS that promote nonviolent means to resolve the conflict.

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Zobel
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In reply to chimpanzee • 8:32a, 5/12/21
AG
I see. I don't think we as mankind have any way to handle this. I think we have a pretty firm ethical footing that we don't think race wars are good, we have the Geneva conventions that prevent conquer and repopulation. But when rubber meets the road, no one really cares all that much.

The theoretical "what happens if Hamas has more military power than Israel" should be matched with the historical "what happened when Zionists had more military power than the local Arabs?"

If we fall back on the historical process for solving this, you just let Israel do whatever and might makes right. Which gives you no moral or ethical standing to oppose a hypothetical future Muslim revolt and takeover of somewhere in Europe.
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chimpanzee
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In reply to Zobel • 8:44a, 5/12/21
Zobel said:
I see. I don't think we as mankind have any way to handle this. I think we have a pretty firm ethical footing that we don't think race wars are good, we have the Geneva conventions that prevent conquer and repopulation. But when rubber meets the road, no one really cares all that much.

The theoretical "what happens if Hamas has more military power than Israel" should be matched with the historical "what happened when Zionists had more military power than the local Arabs?"

If we fall back on the historical process for solving this, you just let Israel do whatever and might makes right. Which gives you no moral or ethical standing to oppose a hypothetical future Muslim revolt and takeover of somewhere in Europe.

Agree. When is it morally licit to fight someone for something more? You end up with competing claims and choices between bad alternatives that swing depending on what side of the spear you are on.
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Zobel
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10:18a, 5/12/21
AG
There's a fascinating historical document here:
https://www.akevot.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/1948ISReport-Eng.pdf

It's a military intelligence analysis of the causes of the Arab population flight during 1947-48. Contrary to common sentiment in the US, the Israeli military intelligence figured the vast majority of people fled due to their military action.

Anyway, the conclusion is what really struck me.

Quote:
One of the important questions related to the problem of Arab migration was whether the Arab migrant would become a fighter or not. The Arab [migrant] has not turned into a fighter. His sole focus now is collecting handout money. He has accepted the lowest standard of living, choosing it over joining the war. There are many factors at play here, but two are central: First, the assessment of Jewish strength and the crisis of confidence in Arab strength. Second, the war in Eretz Yisrael developed in such a way that there was no room for "volunteers" to fight, not to mention that the main volunteer force, the "Liberation Army", fell apart at the time. The refugee problem troubling Arab countries has a significant impact on society and on the economy and brings with it problems which will grow worse, particularly given that no serious, comprehensive and organized measures are taken by Arab countries to resolve the issue.
Whoever wrote that was darn near prescient.
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Zobel
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11:15a, 5/12/21
AG
This is a response to richardag, who I invited to join over here to not clutter up the rocket video entertainment on F16.


Quote:
  • the root of the problem is terrorism, so you are completely wrong.
  • The Palestinians don't behave irrationally - totally unethical, amoral disgusting murderous behavior.
  • Hamas and Abbas do not negotiate in any way in good faith, they want all Jews dead. Period end of story
  • Both Hammas and Abbas need to be defeated with prejudice.
  • The Palestinians need to force better leadership to the top and disavow terrorism.

If we're talking about root causes, that needs to be where the problem started. The situation today didn't begin with Palestinian terrorism against Israel. If we talk about terrorism in a general sense, I actually quite agree - but the cycle of terrorism in what is now Israel began with Jewish terrorism against the British and Arabs.

The root cause of the problem is the hopeless situation of the Arab population who were displaced by war. Terrorism is a symptom of this.

As for the irrationality of the Palestinian Arabs - the unethical, amoral, etc. behavior is precisely what I am describing as irrational. Particularly when there is no situation where their continued violence produces what they want. "War is simply the continuation of political intercourse with the addition of other means." Terrorism is unconventional war. They're fighting an irrational, unwinnable war. Continuation of their immorally carried-out war (e.g., targeting of civilians indiscriminately) will not accomplish their stated goals.

I don't disagree about Hamas being a terrorist organization, and at no point have I said otherwise.


Quote:
Your biggest breakdown in logic is conflating Hammas to represent all Palestinians.
I don't understand this comment as it seems to apply far more to people wanting to exterminate all Palestinians because of the actions of groups like Hamas. Why didn't you direct this at them?
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Zobel
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11:25a, 5/12/21
AG
@dmart90


Quote:
The Jews conquered them because they couldn't accept an equitable solution. Per the BBC:

If only they had been willing to compromise like the Jews.
This is an incredible set of claims!

The Jewish settlers changed the demographics of the region in less than 50 years through legal and massive illegal immigration. They then had several uprisings against the British, ongoing campaigns of violence and terrorism including assassinations and attacks against police, police stations, hotels, market places, trains, and train stations which targeted both Arab and British people.

Then in 1947 the UN gives them a state. You say they compromised by accepting this?

Even further, Irgun and Lehi rejected it out of hand. So while "Jewish Leaders" accepted it, the radical elements responsible for terrorism and violence did not.

Truly astounding.
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ramblin_ag02
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11:27a, 5/12/21
AG
Terrorism is one of those really odd ideas. Everyone thinks it awful and wrong, and everyone thinks they know who is and is not a terrorist. However, in any given situation lots of people disagree about whether people are terrorists or not. In my mind, a basic definition of terrorism would be "violence by non-state groups to make political change". So by this definition Hamas is a terrorist group, but then again so are the American revolutionaries, Lawrence of Arabia, the Kurds, and any politically rioting group in any country. Whether you consider any of these groups terrorists, revolutionaries, radicals, or freedom fighters largely depends on your relationship to them and thoughts about their cause.

As far as the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict goes, there are only 2 real "solutions". One is genocide/ethnic cleansing/mass deportation of one group or the other. The other is both sides coexisting without violence. The first is never going to be acceptabe to anyone, and the latter is a fantasy. In the past these problems were solved with the utmost brutality by the stronger party. Maybe in the distant future we can solve them with politics and diplomacy. Right now we're stuck in an "awful but could be worse" state with no clear path out.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Aggrad08
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12:25p, 5/12/21
AG
A first step is for people to disabuse themselves of the fantasy they if the Palestinians did nothing but peaceful protests their situation would reverse. I'm not saying the terrorism is in any way effective-it's just naive to suppose an effective alternative.

Or that even in a generally peaceful population you can prevent disgruntled outliers from extreme behavior. In our own country we have a small taste of this in the BLM riots and the Jan 6th capitol nonsense. I'm not really sure what the broader sane population is supposed to do to fix this- let alone the absurdity of judging all people of a similar demographic for that action.

The terrorism is both completely inexcusable and almost as predictable as the sun rising.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 1:03p, 5/12/21
AG

Quote:
As far as the Israeli/Palenstinian conflict goes, there are only 2 real "solutions". One is genocide/ethnic cleansing/mass deportation of one group or the other. The other is both sides coexisting without violence.
This. I also believe the illegal settlements make a two-state solution an impossibility now. Israel will never remove the settlements, and you can't have an independent Palestinian state with enclaves of another nation scattered throughout. Especially enclaves of a hostile nation. The only solution is a one-state solution, in which all people are given equal rights under the law. But for this to work, one side will have to surrender power, and the other side surrender the "right" to revenge. I don't know if either side, at least en masse, are willing.

But, I see this situation as very similar to the arguments used to continue slavery. Was it Jefferson who said that slavery was like holding a wolf by the ears. You don't want to be holding it, but you sure as heck don't let go. I understand the practicality of that, but the morality was never defensible. Fear of retaliation for brutalizing and oppressing people does not create a moral right to continue brutalizing and oppressing. At some point, the band-aid has to be ripped off. The wall has to come down. Indefinite administrative detention has to end. The occupying soldiers have to go home and countless checkpoints must go away. Both sides need to lay down their arms, but only one side really has the power to do anything yet they do nothing but escalate.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 1:06p, 5/12/21
AG
For as much as people are rightly critical of Hamas and Palestinian leadership, and many of the more vocal critics are actual Palestinians, I think it's problematic that in American circles someone like Netanyahu has escaped criticism given his role in escalating the situation.
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AgLiving06
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In reply to Zobel • 1:09p, 5/12/21
I didn't notice this when I responded again on the other thread.

Lets start with looking at what I actually responded to. What you used to start this thread is edited.

Quote:
Abbas and Hamas aren't the root of the problem, they're symptoms.

Acknowledging that the Palestinians behave irrationally - and therefore should not be expected to behave rationally - is not an excuse. I'm not excusing their terrorism, or their role in the conflict. It's also not low expectations. I have every belief that as individuals they are normal people. But normal people will behave irrationally and against their own self interest in certain situations.

This negotiation - what does it entail? You've established a way to get to the table. But what I think is there's no solution that ends the conflict that will be acceptable to either party. The Israelis aren't going to trust the Palestinians with an open border and anything resembling an economy - with good reason. And they can't make them part of Israel. anything less than than either of those doesn't actually *do* anything. What do you think? How would you structure a negotiation?

My responses have been geared to the first two sections, that you did not include when you started this topic. You spent multiple responses essentially defending terrorists while also claiming you're against terrorism.

The problem I have with your reasoning is your logic is using it, everybody should hate everyone because they were slighted in the past. The US should not be friends with the UK because we fought a war 250 years ago. Yet we are allies.

So simply dismissing Abbas as Hamas as a symptom is as I said, "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

Hamas is not a symptom. They are a terrorist organization with the stated goal of ridding the world of Jews. They don't care about historical struggles or slights, they just want to kill Jews. Chalking that up to just a symptom is laziness. The area may not be 100% peaceful if they didn't exist, but I bet we wouldn't be talking about rockets being launched every few years.

Abbas is quite literally the leader of the Palestinians. He's 16 years into a 4 year term. He's never once held an election and conveniently cancelled this right before the bombing started. That makes him a dictator, not a "symptom." If after 16 years, the best he can claim is peace agreements, with multiple Israeli Prime Ministers, as the saying goes, maybe it's him that's the problem. Of course the reality is that no matter what he agrees to Hamas would ignore it and continue to bomb Israel.

-------------------------

In terms of solutions, this is what I wrote to you previously:

Quote:
But you want solutions.

Hamas disbands immediately or Israel be allowed to go hunt them down until they are all dead. They are a terrorist organization and should be treated as such.

Abbas is a dictator that needs to go. He's 16 years into a 4 year term. He needs to hold elections in which he will not run, and he needs to leave the area in exile.

Palestinians need to act like they want to exist and and elect real leadership who wants to actually negotiate

Israel should be willing to seriously negotiate to find actual peace.

Other countries need to put pressure on Palestine and Iran to cooperate or there will be all out war agains them by Muslims and Israelis combined.

This is where Trump had it right. Building the peace treaties with other countries puts increased pressure on Palestine. Of course Biden came in and screwed that up.
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UTExan
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In reply to craigernaught • 1:17p, 5/12/21
craigernaught said:
At this point, I have no idea what the Israelis and their supporters want the Palestinians to do. If they vote, their neighborhoods are attacked by settlers. If they protest, they're arrested. If they fight, they're killed. If they take it up to the UN, they're vetoed. If they cooperate, their lands and homes are taken away while everyone "negotiates".

Other than just completely submit to being second class citizens and having their homes stolen from them and moving away, what action can they possibly take that will result in them not being violated and dispossessed of their land and homes? Why do they not deserve equal rights under the law?


And what really hurts the Palestinian cause is that their leadership is so bad that it fits the stereotypes. In Jordan they attempted to take over the government in the 70s before King Hussein's army crushed them. In Lebanon in the 80s they attempted a takeover and the Israelis booted them. They have been taught to celebrate acts of murder.
What Palestinians need are human rights and freedom from the corrupt, coercive gangs with names like the PLO, Hamas and Islamic jihad. What Israelis can give them is secure property rights and full membership in Israeli society.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
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Zobel
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In reply to AgLiving06 • 2:03p, 5/12/21
AG
I'm trying to have a good faith discussion. This:

Quote:
You spent multiple responses essentially defending terrorists while also claiming you're against terrorism.
Is complete garbage. Find a single word - one word - where I have defended terrorists. I honestly think you should apologize.
Quote:
The problem I have with your reasoning is your logic is using it, everybody should hate everyone because they were slighted in the past. The US should not be friends with the UK because we fought a war 250 years ago. Yet we are allies.
I haven't argued anyone should hate anyone, or who should not be friends, or who should be allies. I don't think you'll find a should or ought in what I wrote, except that we should not encourage violence, people should not indiscriminately attack civilians, and we should not advocate for ethnic cleansing, genocide, or de/repopulation.

I have argued that everywhere and always conquered people have hated and revolted against conquerors. This is hardly unique in the region.

Quote:
Hamas is not a symptom. They are a terrorist organization with the stated goal of ridding the world of Jews. They don't care about historical struggles or slights, they just want to kill Jews. Chalking that up to just a symptom is laziness. The area may not be 100% peaceful if they didn't exist, but I bet we wouldn't be talking about rockets being launched every few years.
This is a superficial analysis. I think if you spend ten minutes considering when Hamas was formed and where they came from you might change your opinion. Further, the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization (which I agree with, and have agreed with) doesn't support that they're not a symptom. They are a product of the ongoing conflict, just like the PLO, Fatah, Abu Nidal, etc etc etc.

Abbas is also not the problem. Before Abbas there was Arafat. And before that George Habash. And before that, and before that and before that.


Quote:
In terms of solutions, this is what I wrote to you previously:
I already addressed this. All these solutions do is make it possible to negotiate, they open the door for negotiations. They don't actually address the issue. Perhaps you don't understand what I view the problem to be? The terrorism - while obviously wrong and bad - isn't the main problem, it is a symptom of the underlying problem.

The underlying problem is that you have millions of people who are nation-less, who have no freedom of movement, who have no ability to have an economy, or trade of any sort, who are essentially living in a massive prison. That this prison is partially of their own making doesn't change this - since you're so willing to ignore the genesis of the conflict, I do not see how it matters.

Why do you think we don't have rocket attacks in the US? Why do you think anyone in Palestine does? Is it because we're somehow smarter or better than them? People are people. Ask yourself. Why? Why do they persist in completely ineffective, completely irrational, pointless and senseless violence? The answer "because they hate Jews" is lazy.
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PacifistAg
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2:04p, 5/12/21
AG

Quote:
What Israelis can give them is secure property rights and full membership in Israeli society.
What Israelis won't give them are secure property rights and full membership into Israeli society. Heck, the illegal settlements, countless demolitions, disparate rules for Palestinians, etc are evidence of this. This is an apartheid state. What they need to do is end their policies of apartheid.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Zobel • 2:06p, 5/12/21
AG

Quote:
Further, the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization (which I agree with, and have agreed with) doesn't support that they're not a symptom.
This. And this is also a point, even beyond the Palestinian and Israeli conflict, that Americans seem to fail to grasp. Terrorism is a symptom.
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AGC
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In reply to PacifistAg • 2:06p, 5/12/21
AG
PacifistAg said:

Quote:
What Israelis can give them is secure property rights and full membership in Israeli society.
What Israelis won't give them are secure property rights and full membership into Israeli society. Heck, the illegal settlements, countless demolitions, disparate rules for Palestinians, etc are evidence of this. This is an apartheid state. What they need to do is end their policies of apartheid.


Has it always been this way?
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Zobel
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In reply to UTExan • 2:08p, 5/12/21
AG
Israel will never, never accept Palestinian Arabs having full membership in Israeli society. Israel passed laws as recently as 2018 essentially making Jewish supremacy a matter of policy. The right to have national self-determination in Israel is unique to the Jewish people as a matter of law. When the 1947 UN proposal was issued, some Jewish leaders at the time said it was unacceptable because the Jewish state created was 60/40 Jewish / non-Jewish. Netanyahu has said openly that Israel's Arab citizens are a demographic threat.
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UTExan
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In reply to PacifistAg • 2:12p, 5/12/21
PacifistAg said:

Quote:
What Israelis can give them is secure property rights and full membership in Israeli society.
What Israelis won't give them are secure property rights and full membership into Israeli society. Heck, the illegal settlements, countless demolitions, disparate rules for Palestinians, etc are evidence of this. This is an apartheid state. What they need to do is end their policies of apartheid.


Then what do you call China, or Saudi or Iran? Or what about the current ruling ANC in South Africa whose EFF factions seek the same sort of property dispossession that the current Israeli government allows? You want to throw around that apartheid state label? Better look at Canada, which restricts Latin American migrants far more than the US has.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
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Zobel
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In reply to UTExan • 2:16p, 5/12/21
AG
Palestinian Arabs aren't migrants.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Zobel • 2:19p, 5/12/21
AG
Ben-Gurion thought the number should be no more than 20% non-Jew, if I recall correctly.
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Faustus
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2:20p, 5/12/21
I've appreciated your posts on this topic as well Zobel.

My solution would be a non-starter for Israel, and also be unacceptable to Palestinian leadership, but would acceptable to international parties after a little time. It's not too different from what they tried to hash out at the 2000 Camp David Summit.

Israel needs to disband the settlements, deny the right of return, and allow Palestine to have East Jerusalem as its (symbolic) capital. Israel would retain control over Jerusalem (with continued third-party Hashemite administration of Muslim and Christian holy sites in Jerusalem). Israel would then unilaterally declare the border along the separation barrier. If Israel can negotiate some land swaps for settlements great, if not then remove them like they did in Gaza before they withdrew.

The international community (especially the oil rich Arab countries) can pick up the tab for compensation for the refugees (at whatever amount the international community is willing to part with), and the refugees can return to Palestine to the extent the P.A. is willing to let them back in. If not that would not be Israel's problem.

As if that wasn't bad enough, I think Palestine should be allowed to have its seaport, airports, and control of its border with Jordan. If the country arms itself and attacks Israel, it's no different then than Lebanon, Egypt, or Syria attacking, and Israel has full moral authority to defend itself and hit back.

The fact that the border would be disputed is no different than Israel's current border disputes with Syria and Lebanon, or than countries in other parts of the world (China with virtually all its neighbors in the South China Sea or with India, India with Pakistan, etc.). One of the benefits for Israel is that the Palestinians can't point to Israel for all its ails, and Israel has rid itself of the occupation which feeds unending terrorism and denies Israel the moral high ground. The downside of course is that you've allowed another hostile country to be formed and arm itself beside you whereas before the threat was contained to periodic intafadas with relatively low body counts.

The Palestinians would get their country, but will have to continue to nurture their grievances from the Nakba (nothing short of Israel's removal would assuage that), and will lose considerable financial support in the long run from the U.N., and the third-party state actors with a vested interest in seeing the conflict continue.

However for the average Palestinian the removal of checkpoints, settlements, and the freedom of movement would be, err, liberating. They could sink or swim on their own.

Like I said, non-starters for both sides.

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UTExan
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In reply to Zobel • 2:21p, 5/12/21
Zobel said:
Palestinian Arabs aren't migrants.


Nor did I say they were. Since PacifistAg invoked the apartheid image, I thought it appropriate to point out that forced ethnic division/exclusion is nothing new.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
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PacifistAg
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In reply to UTExan • 2:24p, 5/12/21
AG

Quote:
You want to throw around that apartheid state label? Better look at Canada, which restricts Latin American migrants far more than the US has.
Uh, as Zobel pointed out, Palestinians aren't migrants. They were forcefully removed from their land, many forced into refugee camps, and are living under military control and different sets of laws than Israelis. They're even walled in, with the old city section of Hebron being turned into essentially a ghetto like Warsaw. They are living under an apartheid state. They even have different roads/walkways for Palestinians and Israelis, but with Israelis having freedom of movement. Not to mention the continued land theft, and as we are seeing right now, a system where Israelis are allowed to simply march into a Palestinian home and kick them out while seizing the home for themselves.

But yeah, compare them to Canada. Goodness.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to UTExan • 2:27p, 5/12/21
AG
UTExan said:
Zobel said:
Palestinian Arabs aren't migrants.


Nor did I say they were. Since PacifistAg invoked the apartheid image, I thought it appropriate to point out that forced ethnic division/exclusion is nothing new.
You pointed out a division/exclusion by using false comparisons. It was silly, at best.

I'm not unique in pointing out that this is apartheid. Even many Israelis see it for the evil it is: https://www.btselem.org/topic/apartheid

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PacifistAg
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In reply to PacifistAg • 2:29p, 5/12/21
AG
Well, one minor correction. I said "walkways", but what I really saw wasn't so much a walkway. I saw a beautifully paved road open only to Israelis, sectioned off by a barrier, and then on the other side of the barrier was a worn path through literal piles of trash that children had to walk through in order to get to their kindergarten that is located on the side of the Ibrahimi Mosque.
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Zobel
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In reply to Faustus • 2:30p, 5/12/21
AG
What would you do with Gaza in this scenario?
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PacifistAg
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2:33p, 5/12/21
AG
Imo, it's telling that Israel is cracking down on individuals from organizations that promote nonviolence and reconciliation from entering the country. It's why we were told to be very careful with what we said when coming through Tel Aviv, because if we said we were coming here with Christian Peacemaker Teams, we would have been immediately sent home. It's a state that does not want a light shone on what they're doing, because they know that the American media narrative will keep the American church in the dark and blindly supportive of Israel, largely due to flawed end times theology.
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