We need a Latin Mass in College Station

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747Ag
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In reply to DeProfundis • 9:19p, 4/23/24
AG
DeProfundis said:
powerbelly said:
Mark Fairchild said:
In the Corpus Christi Diocese we are forbidden to have the TLM. St. John the Baptist was growing and had a fourishing parish, but was shut down by our Bishop. The priest of St. John the Baptist has since left the priesthood since he was no longer allowed to celebrate the TLM. Heartbreaking.
As a non-Catholic this is just mind boggling.

What is the harm of allowing TLM? Is it somehow heretical?
It has become a bogeyman for the Pope who crazily enough has issued many calls to minister to the marginalized; all while marginalizing the brightest lights in the church.

Furthermore, it's not heretical in the slightest. Yet, some say it harms the unity of the Church. To that, I ask "how?" How does the Latin Mass harm unity when the Anglican use supposedly does not? How does the Latin Mass harm unity when the Ambrosian Rite supposedly does not? Dominican Rite? How do the apostolic liturgies of the east not offend against Catholic unity? And why were the liturgical reforms of this committee only a western thing? Today's Vatican is siding with the faction in favor of keeping the Malabar Rite as is rather than with those who wish to Novus Ordo-ize it... and the conflict is rather vitriolic and insane.

Yet I have seen some of our Orthodox brethren that ditching an apostolic liturgy in favor of one drawn up by committee strikes against reunification. More recently, we've seen one Orthodox communion sever communications with Rome do to the double talk in Fidicia Supplicans.

Does not compute. None of it.
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Mark Fairchild
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3:57p, 4/24/24
AG
Here in Rockport, TX, we are truly blessed by a very devout and orthodox priest; however, when Mass is over and he has processed out, the church is like a fish market. My wife and I always end with the St. Michael Prayer, but the racket is so loud that we can hardly pray. Our music is all modern, and we are awash with girl altar servers, women readers, and women extraordinary ministers. It is no wonder that so few Catholics that attend NO churches do not believe in the "Real Presence". This is coming from two converts to the Catholic faith, some thirty years ago. It is disheartening.
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
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jrico2727
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5:11p, 4/24/24
AG
There will be a TLM this Thursday 4/25 6pm for the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist at 6PM a family Liturgy night after that at St. Thomas Aquinas in College Station.

It's not surprising to see our resident liberal catholic to be disparaging of the liturgy given his posting history, but it is disheartening. Liturgy is the heart and breath of the Church. It is how we order our day and provide worship to the Lord as handed down by the Apostles. It shouldn't be seen as something entirely for us, because we are offering it to him. We receive graces plenty, but it isn't for our entertainment or amusement.

As far as unity, we had a unified Liturgy and a Mass that was said everywhere the same until 1962. In College Station, where I believe every parish offers a decent mass, not one of them is the same. At my personal parish each individual mass is different to a degree from music and practices. So if you include the clown masses that are allowed on top of just your normal N.O. masses there is absolutely no unity other than mentioning the Pope at consecration. There is no reasonable explanation for the TLM ban other than if fosters a fervent appreciation for all things traditional, including moral beliefs.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to powerbelly • 7:16p, 4/24/24
AG
powerbelly said:
Mark Fairchild said:
In the Corpus Christi Diocese we are forbidden to have the TLM. St. John the Baptist was growing and had a fourishing parish, but was shut down by our Bishop. The priest of St. John the Baptist has since left the priesthood since he was no longer allowed to celebrate the TLM. Heartbreaking.
As a non-Catholic this is just mind boggling.

What is the harm of allowing TLM? Is it somehow heretical?


TLM is not forbidden, just not the primary liturgy. The RCC years ago revised the liturgy to be said in the vernacular, language of the land, among other changes to the rubrics. There is quite a bit of documentation on how this came about, but the goal was to engage the lay faithful into the liturgy where they are- for many at the beginning of a journey.

Clearly, the TLM fans here are much farther along in their journey to appreciate a much older, vintage liturgy that emphasizes a period of time and in my opinion a certain romantic view of what being a disciple of Jesus means.

Do you think the first century church had such a liturgy complete with flowing vestments and thick clouds of incense? We know they didn't. We know they met in each other's houses and the faith flourished, not because of the music or decoration - but because the liturgy was rooted in action and sacrifice.

If I'm critical of the TLM, it is because I know that many of my brothers and sisters that crave this liturgy, do so out of spite to their local parishes. Instead of bringing up their fellow parishioners or volunteering in the choir, they will drive hours to be … entertained.

Yes I said it. I hope I'm wrong.

We are the church. If God put you in a neighborhood where the folks at mass are just checking a box and don't believe in the real presence- then why haven't you done something about it? You know that is the first thing God will ask you when you stand before him.

Fire away!

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Law361
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In reply to PabloSerna • 7:28p, 4/24/24
jrico2727
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In reply to PabloSerna • 8:37p, 4/24/24
AG
So in the first century there wasn't any incense, no vestments, are we to believe the priest was facing the people at consecration too? Revisionist history is fun. I do find it interesting your attacks on traditional Catholicism you've formulated arguments using the same attacks as a protestant would.
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747Ag
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In reply to PabloSerna • 9:16p, 4/24/24
AG
False antiquarianism... No one that attends the TLM believes this is the same form of Holy Mass from the first century. The question is if liturgy should develop organically over time or should it be assembled by a committee inclusive of those who reject Catholic teachings.

False claim about the desire to be entertained... Mark Shea often quips that accusation is a form of confession.

False claim about spite towards my local parish... would that they proclaim the Faith. Would that one of the priests not verbally assail a friend in the confessional regarding a confessed sin. Would that the abuse of the liturgy be taken seriously. Would that the ars celebrandi and the lex orandi better connect with the lex credendi. Each parish is different. Yet people go a ways such that they can save their souls. Such that they can do likewise for their spouse and children.

Personally, the Old Mass adds fuel to my prayer life. I find myself more distracted about other things at the New Mass. The sacrament is the same Christ, but the rituals in the two rites are different wherein one ignites something in my soul and better predisposes me to receive the Blessed Sacrament. My life is better now, albeit harder.
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DeProfundis
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In reply to PabloSerna • 9:38p, 4/24/24
PabloSerna said:
powerbelly said:
Mark Fairchild said:
In the Corpus Christi Diocese we are forbidden to have the TLM. St. John the Baptist was growing and had a fourishing parish, but was shut down by our Bishop. The priest of St. John the Baptist has since left the priesthood since he was no longer allowed to celebrate the TLM. Heartbreaking.
As a non-Catholic this is just mind boggling.

What is the harm of allowing TLM? Is it somehow heretical?


TLM is not forbidden, just not the primary liturgy. The RCC years ago revised the liturgy to be said in the vernacular, language of the land, among other changes to the rubrics. There is quite a bit of documentation on how this came about, but the goal was to engage the lay faithful into the liturgy where they are- for many at the beginning of a journey.

Clearly, the TLM fans here are much farther along in their journey to appreciate a much older, vintage liturgy that emphasizes a period of time and in my opinion a certain romantic view of what being a disciple of Jesus means.

Do you think the first century church had such a liturgy complete with flowing vestments and thick clouds of incense? We know they didn't. We know they met in each other's houses and the faith flourished, not because of the music or decoration - but because the liturgy was rooted in action and sacrifice.

If I'm critical of the TLM, it is because I know that many of my brothers and sisters that crave this liturgy, do so out of spite to their local parishes. Instead of bringing up their fellow parishioners or volunteering in the choir, they will drive hours to be … entertained.

Yes I said it. I hope I'm wrong.

We are the church. If God put you in a neighborhood where the folks at mass are just checking a box and don't believe in the real presence- then why haven't you done something about it? You know that is the first thing God will ask you when you stand before him.

Fire away!




I have no idea how anyone who has seen a guitar/tambourine band, rapping homily, liturgical dance, life teen mass can dare say that people are going to a TLM to be entertained.

Half of Vatican 2 was trying to recreate the Protestant rock opera aesthetic. Take down the stodgy old altar and put a table out front, hang some velvet banners with a picture of a dove and a sunrise and have a squadron of late 50's divorcees wearing leopard print frisbee the body of Christ into someone's hand so we don't waste time kneeling.

Yes, yes the TLM is all about the performance value
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aggietony2010
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12:09a, 4/25/24
AG
I'm the type of Catholic Pope Francis pretends doesn't exist. I was initially attracted to the TLM by its aesthetic qualities, but never once questioned the validity of the new missal. All my Sundays and Holy days are at our 9am mass, a novus ordo with a combination of Latin and English congregation responses, chanted antiphons, and hymnody that follows the documents on sacred music with organ accompaniment. But I make our twice monthly TLMs as often as I can.

I fell in love with the music and "smells and bells", but as I dove deeper, I realized how much more was lost. A once fairly uniform rubric was turned into a menu of options at every step. Oh, don't like option A, B, or C, just do what you want and justify it as the "or similar words" suggested by the rubrics. Dozens of centuries old Collects, Secrets, and Post-communion prayers, chopped up, rewritten and spread across the calendar. Anyone who presents it as a mere change in language or aesthetics is either ignorant or disingenuous.

The liturgical calendar was obliterated, often against the recommendations of the council. Ask an average Catholic about the following things that used to be a part of Catholic life and enjoy the blank stares.

Septuagesima
Passiontide
Ember Days
Rogation days
Friday abstinence outside of Lent

So much more than aesthetics and language was changed. Connections to the historical church were severed in the name of appealing to modern man, and the results speak for themselves.
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Mark Fairchild
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In reply to aggietony2010 • 8:05a, 4/25/24
AG
AMEN!
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
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747Ag
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In reply to aggietony2010 • 10:28a, 4/25/24
AG
aggietony2010 said:
I'm the type of Catholic Pope Francis pretends doesn't exist. I was initially attracted to the TLM by its aesthetic qualities, but never once questioned the validity of the new missal. All my Sundays and Holy days are at our 9am mass, a novus ordo with a combination of Latin and English congregation responses, chanted antiphons, and hymnody that follows the documents on sacred music with organ accompaniment. But I make our twice monthly TLMs as often as I can.

I fell in love with the music and "smells and bells", but as I dove deeper, I realized how much more was lost. A once fairly uniform rubric was turned into a menu of options at every step. Oh, don't like option A, B, or C, just do what you want and justify it as the "or similar words" suggested by the rubrics. Dozens of centuries old Collects, Secrets, and Post-communion prayers, chopped up, rewritten and spread across the calendar. Anyone who presents it as a mere change in language or aesthetics is either ignorant or disingenuous.

The liturgical calendar was obliterated, often against the recommendations of the council. Ask an average Catholic about the following things that used to be a part of Catholic life and enjoy the blank stares.

Septuagesima
Passiontide
Ember Days
Rogation days
Friday abstinence outside of Lent

So much more than aesthetics and language was changed. Connections to the historical church were severed in the name of appealing to modern man, and the results speak for themselves.
Technically, Friday penance is still a thing... abstinence from meat is now no longer the as the sole prescribed means of observing Friday penance, but the US bishops (in 1966) wished to give Friday abstinence "first place" as far as penance goes. Unfortunately, these details have been missed by most of the faithful.

https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-year-and-calendar/lent/us-bishops-pastoral-statement-on-penance-and-abstinence

Growing up and attending Good Shepherd Catholic school in the 80's, I recall that every Friday the cafeteria provided the following for school lunch: fishsticks, grilled cheese, and tomato soup. I fondly recall how Br. Robert took lunch count in homeroom: "1st row... fish? sandwich?... 2nd row... fish? sandwich?... etc..."
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aggietony2010
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In reply to 747Ag • 12:11p, 4/25/24
AG
And I think the fact that Friday penance is still a thing, and 90% or Catholics aren't aware of it, speaks to what's lost when rigidity is exchanged for optionality. Being merely a "cultural Catholic" is a bad thing, but a visible Catholic culture is a good thing, and the change to that Friday penance made the Catholic culture less visible.

I did some "old school" style fasting during Lent this year, and there were a couple days where I went into the office to work (I work from home most days), and I went to lunch and enjoyed people's company while they ate and I drank some water. There was also a Muslim coworker there, and it happened to be Ramadan...so there we were, a Catholic, a Muslim, a couple nominal Christians and a couple atheists discussing fasting habits and reasons, Lent, and all sorts of good stuff. It was a great chance to share my faith and the Gospel, and it the opportunity was provided by holding to something that we don't hold onto anymore. I think it would be beneficial if the Church mandated more from us, with the understanding that we will fail.
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747Ag
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In reply to aggietony2010 • 12:28p, 4/25/24
AG
aggietony2010 said:
...I think it would be beneficial if the Church mandated more from us, with the understanding that we will fail.
Agreed. These sorts of things are ordered towards our sanctification. I understand some of the relaxations over time being in response to the way in which society was changing... e.g. working away from home, and not so much tending the farm. However, it's my opinion that some of these relaxations have gone too far... e.g. Eucharistic fast being 1 hour, wherein it used to be 3 hours. Used to be from midnight, and at one point included water. I think we need a few more of these strictures because I recognize their benefit but also understand my weakness in view of the lack of obligation.
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DeProfundis
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In reply to aggietony2010 • 12:03p, 4/27/24
aggietony2010 said:
And I think the fact that Friday penance is still a thing, and 90% or Catholics aren't aware of it, speaks to what's lost when rigidity is exchanged for optionality. Being merely a "cultural Catholic" is a bad thing, but a visible Catholic culture is a good thing, and the change to that Friday penance made the Catholic culture less visible.

I did some "old school" style fasting during Lent this year, and there were a couple days where I went into the office to work (I work from home most days), and I went to lunch and enjoyed people's company while they ate and I drank some water. There was also a Muslim coworker there, and it happened to be Ramadan...so there we were, a Catholic, a Muslim, a couple nominal Christians and a couple atheists discussing fasting habits and reasons, Lent, and all sorts of good stuff. It was a great chance to share my faith and the Gospel, and it the opportunity was provided by holding to something that we don't hold onto anymore. I think it would be beneficial if the Church mandated more from us, with the understanding that we will fail.


This is a great post, and is something I think about a lot. In Catholicism, society is ordered around the Church and the church gives life structure. There are seasons; times of fasting, mortification and penance, and time of feasting and celebration. There is Friday; a day to reflect upon the sacrifice of Christ, meditate on his wounds and on your unworthiness. And then there is Sunday, a day of rest, a day to revel in His never ending mercy and love. You are always celebrating or participating in something in the life of the Church, it keeps you tethered to it, which helps focus you, not just on Sundays.

That was one of thing that interested me in Opus Dei; their holistic Catholicism. You are not a businessman at work, one of the boys at leisure and Catholic at mass, you are Catholic all the time. Your entire day is structured around sanctification. You wake up and recite the heroic minute "Serviam!" You read the morning liturgy of the hours and say the Angelus, you attend Mass or visit adoration daily, you adopt one mortification, you read the gospel reading, you pray the rosary daily, you recite the Presces, examine your conscience and say three hail Mary's and anoint yourself with holy water before bed. You attempt the piety of a Child and the knowledge of a theologian.
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PabloSerna
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In reply to DeProfundis • 8:02p, 4/27/24
AG
" Half of Vatican 2 was trying to recreate the Protestant rock opera aesthetic."

Do you seriously believe this or did you just get carried away?
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747Ag
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In reply to PabloSerna • 9:00p, 4/27/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
" Half of Vatican 2 was trying to recreate the Protestant rock opera aesthetic."

Do you seriously believe this or did you just get carried away?
Technically, it was the Consilium (not Communio), which came after the Council, that was after something of that aesthetic... but more like Peter, Paul, & Mary since they hadn't yet heard too much of rock opera even if it was around the age of aquarius. The missal of 1962 really has more in common with Sacrosactum Consilum than the product of the Consilium, especially when you look at the average parish.
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Bob Lee
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In reply to 747Ag • 10:06p, 4/27/24
AG
747Ag said:
PabloSerna said:
" Half of Vatican 2 was trying to recreate the Protestant rock opera aesthetic."

Do you seriously believe this or did you just get carried away?
Technically, it was the Consilium (not Communio), which came after the Council, that was after something of that aesthetic... but more like Peter, Paul, & Mary since they hadn't yet heard too much of rock opera even if it was around the age of aquarius. The missal of 1962 really has more in common with Sacrosactum Consilum than the product of the Consilium, especially when you look at the average parish.


From Sacrosanctum Concilium (116) : the Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as especially suited to the Roman liturgy; therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services

From birth until I left home, so the first 18 years of my life, and going to Mass regularly the whole time, I never once heard Gregorian chant included in the liturgy. Not until I started attending mass at a monastery while I was in the Navy.
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DeProfundis
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In reply to PabloSerna • 10:18p, 4/27/24
PabloSerna said:
" Half of Vatican 2 was trying to recreate the Protestant rock opera aesthetic."

Do you seriously believe this or did you just get carried away?


I mean it, but I should probably say that "progressive bad actors in the church took the many liberalizing changes to the liturgy initiated by Vatican II and ran with them under the guise of "throwing wide the doors of the church", "involving the laity" and "ecunemism".

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