Some religion thoughts

25,065 Views | 259 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Redstone
Redstone
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AG
It is deeply unsettling to realize how "unstable" the texts are, by both text itself and authorship....
if you don't have an Apostolic / Sacramental base foundation.

The canon is very "unstable" - as Hart details in his NT translation. (And most translations, King James first and foremost, are horrible. You need a Koine Greek scholar who explains choices in detail.)

God's promises are stable. His liturgy and Sacraments are stable. The Church is stable - despite its massive human failures over so much its history, including now, which is truly awful.
bigcat22
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Faithful Ag said:

The New Testament Church is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Church. They are one in the same really. Without the OT Church we would not have the NT Church. Without the OT how could we understand or believe that all Jesus did was to fulfill the OT prophesies.

This is a confusing position to me as both the OT and NT belong to Salvation History and to the Church. We can discuss the Roman Catholic Church 's case for her claim as The Apostolic NT Church in a different discussion, but to say that the OT preceded the Church is a bit of a foreign perspective to me.


This kind of goes back to the question I asked earlier in the thread. Which is when Jesus holds the priests accountable to what was written in Isaiah and 2nd Chronicles how would the average Jewish man know this was Scripture before Christ was born?
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Faithful Ag
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Faithful Ag
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The Apostles and the first century Christians were actually just first century Jews witnessing firsthand the fulfillment of the Promises made to their people. Gentiles came to understand the Christian faith through a Jewish understanding and lens...or Jewish Tradition.

Are we to believe we can just read the texts today and come to a full and complete understanding about everything they are intended to convey?
Zobel
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AG
What they heard read in the synagogue was scripture. But there wasn't a uniform canon. The Sadduccees only accepted the Torah, for example. So depending on what sect you were in, the canon you used was either right or wrong - according to Christ.
bigcat22
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So Jesus' citations of the Psalter or Isaiah are irrelevant to Sadducees? How did they know the Pentateuch was Scripture?

Also, where did Jesus encounter any disagreement on what was, and what was not, Scripture? And what about the 22 books had been "laid up in the Temple" for nearly 200 years before Bethlehem?
bigcat22
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Faithful Ag said:

Are we to believe we can just read the texts today and come to a full and complete understanding about everything they are intended to convey?


Goodness no, that's dangerous and has lead to the formation of many many cults (ie Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, etc.)
Aggrad08
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JJMt said:

Quote:

You also just identified why Protestants reject the scholarship on authorship taught at most seminaries. They demand it must have been mosaic authorship (long ago abandoned) or that the gospels were written by their namesakes, that there was no redaction or interpolation. Because it was god writing through men like they were a giant pen.
That is most definitely not taught at most Protestant seminaries, even most evangelical Protestant seminaries, at least not as strongly as you've worded it.


It is taught broadly at most mainline seminaries. Mosaic authorship for instance is hardly a matter of debate anymore rather than arguing over different forms of a documentary hypothesis. The idea of holding onto mosaic authorship is virtually if not completely limited to Protestant evangelical and traditional Jewish circles. Again, not because they can explain the issues that lead to the demise of mosaic authorship in the first place, but rather because their views on scripture couldn't possibly reconcile this view the way Catholics, orthodox, and other Protestants can. Which is incidentally why those churches didn't fight and often outwardly encouraged such research.

Zobel
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bigcat22 said:

So Jesus' citations of the Psalter or Isaiah are irrelevant to Sadducees? How did they know the Pentateuch was Scripture?

Correct. They did not accept anything but the Torah. And I'm not completely confident if this, but I believe that Jesus does not use the psalms or prophets as the basis for His points when He is talking to the Sadducees.

I don't know how they "knew." They were imposters, squatting on the temple, who should not have been priests at all scripturally. They took the name of Zadok (where we get Sadducee) but were not related. They used the temple to enrich their wealth, and owned much of the land in Judaea through the temple tax. Since they didn't believe in the resurrection, maximizing their own and their families personal status made rational sense.

The Samaritans were similar, only accepting the Pentateuch. But their Pentateuch, the Samaritan Pentateuch, was different and made it seem as if Mt Gerazim was where the Temple should be instead of in Jerusalem. I believe they identified Gerazim as Sinai as well. Either way, their scriptural view was also wrong - as Christ told St Photini at the well.

Quote:

Also, where did Jesus encounter any disagreement on what was, and what was not, Scripture? And what about the 22 books had been "laid up in the Temple" for nearly 200 years before Bethlehem?

When He spoke to the sadduccees. For example, Mark 12. And, as i mentioned, when He talked to St Photini. But look, the entire modern idea of canon is so foreign to the mind of the first century that the text is totally silent on it. St Paul just refers to things that were written, he's super loose on what is scripture. He refers to rabbinic tradition as if it's scripture over and over again. As does St Stephen in front of the Sanhedrin.
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Aggrad08
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JJMt said:

First, your original statement was much broader than your second.

Second, there is a substantial amount of reason to believe that most of the Pentateuch was in fact written by Moses. There have been devastating scholarly criticisms of the JEPD theory and the theories that the Pentateuch was written during the Exile or during the Hellenistic periods. Yet many continue on as if those very weak theories have somehow incontrovertibly proven that Moses was not the author of the Pentateuch.


Not really no.

And your second statement is nonsense. There is much debate on the exact nature of the authorship but the idea that mosaic authorship has stong intellectual argument and evidence in its favor or that there is any scholarly movement in that direction is fanciful. The reasons mosaic authorship was abandoned are not remotely addressed and as such those scholars continue on. If it actually was a supportable hypotheses it's support wouldn't be limited as it is as all the other flavors of Christianity have no issue with mosaic authorship being true, it's the facts holding them back.
AgLiving06
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It's the internet. It's pretty easy to misunderstand someone. I don't think I have though.

Quote:

The point people are trying to make is that at some point humans have to recognize what is the word of God. That happened as a process, an editorial process. We can look at what happened in history. You're saying "God did it" which is true-but-incomplete. How did it happen?

Where we disagree is right here.

Rephrased, your argument is effectively that:

1. Through men, God delivered His Word.
2. Later, other men, apparently on their own, somehow recognized what was the Word of God.

So in your desire to to claim my argument was incomplete, you supplied an argument that, based on your reasoning, is just as incomplete.

How did these men correctly decide the books? On their own? You can't take that position unless your answer is that the Scriptures are just a simple book of traditions by man.

If you want to claim they were guided by God, then you are back to my claim.

It also shows something very important, that is pretty consistent to Orthodox and Roman Catholics. Both will claim to teach the one true "Holy Tradition", which includes Scripture in it. What I am finding more and more gets left off though, is that Scripture is actually subordinate in practice.
AgLiving06
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Quote:

This is where your claim fall flat on it's face...yes the writers were instruments used by God for this purpose - but you do not seem to acknowledge or accept that God also used HIS CHURCH for an equally important role in this same purpose. It was both the written letters that were inspired but also inspired was the recognition and collection process of those letters (along with the exclusion of other writings) through the visible one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

No, my claim does not fall flat on it's face. Your claim sounds great in theory, but doesn't work in practice.

The Reformation is a pretty great example of this exact argument of yours.

Rome's argument, was that "Holy Tradition" was necessary to understand the Scriptures. At the most basic level, this means that the only correct view is what the Pope/Magisterium say is the correct view. It doesn't necessarily matter what Scripture says for it is beholden to another authority.

The Reformers argument was that Tradition is beholden to the Scriptures. That what Luther or Calvin or other believed did not matter if it was not taught in Scripture.

And to be clear, I'm not downplaying the Church. I've been the only one to reference councils and their importance. But their importance was not tied to man simply making decisions. It was tied to man being able to understand just a bit more of the knowledge that God revealed in the Scriptures.
Zobel
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AG
I think this is missing the thrust. It's not that the Pentateuch is mosaic in origin. It's that it was obviously and clearly updated and edited. Parts of it, like Deut 32, are so old they were too ancient to even effectively translate by the Seventy in 300 BC or so. We know when some of the edits were made because there are places where the names were updated, so we know now the old name, and the (then) new name.
Zobel
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AG
You agree that man has a role in writing, but it came from God. I say, yes and the Church guided by the spirit had a role in collecting, editing, interpreting, and you say "ha! See it came from God!" I'm not arguing against that it came from God. I'm arguing that saying that is a shallow answer because it ignores the mechanism through which God chose to work.
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AgLiving06
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I'm sorry, but this is just not true. You claimed I must have misunderstood you earlier, yet I'm reading your responses and wondering if you've actually read what I've written?

I've yet to "ignore the mechanism" as you put it. In fact, I went so far as to quote the Council of Chalcedon in my expanded response to XUSCR a page or so ago. I've recognized that man played a role. What seemingly gets ignored by you and others, is that it is only by God's will that the Scriptures could be inerrant.

What continues to occur in this thread is that Roman Catholics and Orthodox want to overplay man's role to the detriment of God.

Man could not have inerrant books about God, nor compiled those books if not for God's will. Any other answer is to say that the Bible is simply a book of man.
Redstone
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Of course its a book of man. What is the Word? The texts, or Christ the Incarnate Logos?
Faithful Ag
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AgLiving06 said:

Quote:

This is where your claim fall flat on it's face...yes the writers were instruments used by God for this purpose - but you do not seem to acknowledge or accept that God also used HIS CHURCH for an equally important role in this same purpose. It was both the written letters that were inspired but also inspired was the recognition and collection process of those letters (along with the exclusion of other writings) through the visible one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

No, my claim does not fall flat on it's face. Your claim sounds great in theory, but doesn't work in practice.

The Reformation is a pretty great example of this exact argument of yours.

Rome's argument, was that "Holy Tradition" was necessary to understand the Scriptures. At the most basic level, this means that the only correct view is what the Pope/Magisterium say is the correct view. It doesn't necessarily matter what Scripture says for it is beholden to another authority.

The Reformers argument was that Tradition is beholden to the Scriptures. That what Luther or Calvin or other believed did not matter if it was not taught in Scripture.

And to be clear, I'm not downplaying the Church. I've been the only one to reference councils and their importance. But their importance was not tied to man simply making decisions. It was tied to man being able to understand just a bit more of the knowledge that God revealed in the Scriptures.
With all do respect, you are skipping a millennium, changing the subject and shifting the argument quite substantially here. Let's just take it one step at a time here. I am not making the case for the Pope here, or for Sacred Tradition.

The only point right now that I am attempting to make is that the Bible comes to us through a process that involves more than just the men who wrote the actual letters/books. There were:

1. The men/writers of the Bible who were guided and inspired by the Holy Spirit in their writings
2. The men/Church who collected those writings, discerned which writings were and were not to be included in the Bible, and that these men were also guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit

That's it. That is all at this time that I am attempting to find agreement on. Can we agree on the above?
Zobel
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AG
Yeah, man, you're just continuing to say things I agree with, but say I'm against them. It's confusing. God - or properly, the Holy Spirit - guided the formation of the canon, full stop. We have the canon of scripture that God wants us to have. So any time you start thinking "hm he must be saying man did it and not God" let's just reverse and not.

How has anyone overplayed man's role? Can you be specific there? What do you think man's role is, and what do you think I think it is? Where are we disagreeing?
Zobel
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AG
Yeah there are people who have some really specific views about inerrancy and authorship, and I think you are not one of them. So we probably are close to aligned.
Zobel
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AG
I think it's probably even looser than that. There were folks who wrote. Then there were people in the Church, living out their life in the Church, who accepted and used those texts. They did this because they were in line with what was already being taught and practiced, so they were received and understood within the framework of belief and practice that they already had received from the Apostles and disciples of the Lord.
Faithful Ag
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I tend to agree with you on this. My point is really that we can have confidence in the Scriptures not only because the person who wrote them was inspired, but also because the church was protected in her identification of them and her testing what was written against what was taught and practiced. Really you cannot exclude either from the "process". Both were equally important and both were guided by the Holy Spirit.
Zobel
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AG
I completely agree.

I'm just trying to point out that it is messy. I'd almost say, however messy we envision it, it was probably messier. History is made by people with the benefit of hindsight but the struggle of lacking context. Those combine to force us to greatly simplify in order to make sense of things, to make a story where there wasn't one.

Messy in this case meaning, you had pockets of people for centuries who were Christians who simply were not using the same canon of scripture. I mean, look, in the early days you couldn't even clearly linguistically distinguish an ethnic Jew who was a Christ-follower and Torah follower from a pagan convert non-kosher keeping gentile. St Paul sometimes calls the former those of the circumcision, but that needs a further modifier (those of the circumcision who follow Christ). These people were all over the map in their understanding of... everything. The world, philosophy, who God was, what worship looked like (you mean it shouldn't involve orgies?!). Read the epistles to the church in Corinth, it's absolutely nuts.

They were being taught, without the New Testament, from gospel accounts of the Lord from His followers. These gospel accounts were guarded by what Papias and St Luke both refer to as "witnesses" in a way we would say "eyewitnesses." And those same people were instructing the faithful from their experience with Christ. The epistles are all occasional letters, and from these specifics we can pull out universals. But by necessity it shows that the epistles were drawing from a set of ideas, teachings, concepts that pre-date any concept of Christian scriptural teaching.

Look at the sort of chain of teaching represented by Apollos. The Lord reveals to St Paul the correct interpretation of the OT scriptures, who teaches Sts Priscilla and Aquilla (Jews who lived in Rome, with Roman names), who taught Apollos (an Alexandrian Jew named after a freakin pagan god) the correct interpretation of the OT, who then used that teaching to "water" the churches planted by St Paul. The bedrock here is the OT combined with the divinely revealed interpretation - whether by vision or earthly experience with the Lord. And all this at a time when the understanding of what parts of the OT were scripture was extremely diverse and tenuous.

For example, the Book of Jubilees was crazy popular in the first century. At Qumran, among the dead sea scrolls, it is the most found writing excepting only Genesis and 1 Enoch. Josephus uses it more than anything else as a reference in Antiquities. A bunch of the concepts from this book are latent in the NT writings, casually mixed in much the same was as other Rabbinic traditions (like the names of Jannes and Jambres or that the Law was given by angels) without any reference or footnote. Some NT places seem to refer to it directly, even quotations by Christ. (Good article here). The book and its language and ideas is just one of many things that point to the fact that around this time there was no set canon of Hebrew scriptures.

You've got people being taught from a diverse set of writings held in various degrees of divine inspiration, all being read and framed through the lens of the direct revelation of Jesus Christ - as taught by those who experienced Christ directly, personally. And this state persists for literally centuries. So its messy. Very messy, from the perspective of a historical narrative.

While this is an argument against sola scriptura - a devastating one, in my opinion - it is not an argument against the grace of the Holy Spirit holding it all together towards an aim. In fact the providence of the Spirit is the only way something like this could have come about, if we look at it correctly. It is incredible what happened with the faith to so firmly reflect a single, common apostolic tradition. The ultimate form of the canon reflects that.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Even as a Protestant (by default), I have to say that the more educated I become on the subject the stranger Sola Scriptura becomes to me. I can't find anything in ancient times that reflects the belief that the accepted New Testament scriptures are the complete and total teachings of Jesus and his Apostles distilled to their purest form and on their own completely sufficient to build Christianity from scratch. I have noticed a belief among some Protestants that if the entire world ended tomorrow but one hundred years from now a random person found an intact Bible, then pure and correct Christianity would arise unchanged. I held this belief at one point and took it for granted, but as I said above it just seems so odd now.

It's clear the formation of canon had plenty of arguments and politicking involved. Like the controversy over Revelation. We also have references to completely missing texts, like some of Paul's letters and the Gospel to the Hebrews that are held in high regard by earlier writers. What we have is great, but it's not like it's some sort of carefully planned and crafted instruction manual for Christianity.
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AgLiving06
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Faithful Ag said:

AgLiving06 said:

Quote:

This is where your claim fall flat on it's face...yes the writers were instruments used by God for this purpose - but you do not seem to acknowledge or accept that God also used HIS CHURCH for an equally important role in this same purpose. It was both the written letters that were inspired but also inspired was the recognition and collection process of those letters (along with the exclusion of other writings) through the visible one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

No, my claim does not fall flat on it's face. Your claim sounds great in theory, but doesn't work in practice.

The Reformation is a pretty great example of this exact argument of yours.

Rome's argument, was that "Holy Tradition" was necessary to understand the Scriptures. At the most basic level, this means that the only correct view is what the Pope/Magisterium say is the correct view. It doesn't necessarily matter what Scripture says for it is beholden to another authority.

The Reformers argument was that Tradition is beholden to the Scriptures. That what Luther or Calvin or other believed did not matter if it was not taught in Scripture.

And to be clear, I'm not downplaying the Church. I've been the only one to reference councils and their importance. But their importance was not tied to man simply making decisions. It was tied to man being able to understand just a bit more of the knowledge that God revealed in the Scriptures.
With all do respect, you are skipping a millennium, changing the subject and shifting the argument quite substantially here. Let's just take it one step at a time here. I am not making the case for the Pope here, or for Sacred Tradition.

The only point right now that I am attempting to make is that the Bible comes to us through a process that involves more than just the men who wrote the actual letters/books. There were:

1. The men/writers of the Bible who were guided and inspired by the Holy Spirit in their writings
2. The men/Church who collected those writings, discerned which writings were and were not to be included in the Bible, and that these men were also guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit

That's it. That is all at this time that I am attempting to find agreement on. Can we agree on the above?

I didn't skip anything. I used a relevant example to showcase the difference in thought. It was what came to mind when I read your response.

I can agree to your two bullets, largely because I wrote those several posts above...

Faithful Ag
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Quote:

Rephrased, your argument is effectively that:

1. Through men, God delivered His Word.
2. Later, other men, apparently on their own, somehow recognized what was the Word of God.


This is not the same thing as what I am asking you to agree with me on. There is a massive difference between being "apparently on their own" vs. not being on their own but instead protected and guided into truth by the Holy Spirit.
AgLiving06
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This version of Sola Scriptura that you described would be a stranger to the Reformers as well.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

This version of Sola Scriptura that you described would be a stranger to the Reformers as well.
From what I know of Lutherans I would agree with you. From what I've read on some of the "less polished" elements of the Reformation, maybe not.
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AgLiving06
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Faithful Ag said:

Quote:

Rephrased, your argument is effectively that:

1. Through men, God delivered His Word.
2. Later, other men, apparently on their own, somehow recognized what was the Word of God.


This is not the same thing as what I am asking you to agree with me on. There is a massive difference between being "apparently on their own" vs. not being on their own but instead protected and guided into truth by the Holy Spirit.

Fair, If it's your opinion that man could not have achieved an infallible book without the Holy Spirit, I can agree to that since it's a shift from what Zobel said previously.
AgLiving06
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Just scrolling through this thread:

Redstone - The Bible is NOT the Word of God.
Redstone - The Bible is a literal product of the Apostolic (Catholic / Orthodox) Church, debated and prayed over for 3 centuries, in councils mostly from Rome.

Larry Lajitas - The Bible is not the "breathe" of God. The Bible is a book that contains letters which forms stories. It is infallible as long as it is translated properly.

Larry did try and walk this back a bit and tweak it to say he really meant that all versions of the bible aren't infallible due to translations errors, etc...but that's just shifting the goalposts.

---------------------
That was just page 1.

-----------------------

The more interesting thing has been to watch most Orthodox and Catholics start to walk back their claims as this thread has gone on (well except for Redstone who is plowing ahead with man alone).

I'm glad we are in agreement around a lot of this though. It would be more concerning if we weren't to be honest, because this is more of a logical discussion, not one of Sola Scriptura.
-------------------------

In terms of overplaying man's role, here's some statements I'd make that I believe to be True.

1. Man, of his own will, was not and is not capable of producing a book that is the infallible word of God
2. God is capable of producing an infallible book.
bigcat22
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AG
ramblin_ag02 said:

Even as a Protestant (by default), I have to say that the more educated I become on the subject the stranger Sola Scriptura becomes to me. I can't find anything in ancient times that reflects the belief that the accepted New Testament scriptures are the complete and total teachings of Jesus and his Apostles distilled to their purest form and on their own completely sufficient to build Christianity from scratch. I have noticed a belief among some Protestants that if the entire world ended tomorrow but one hundred years from now a random person found an intact Bible, then pure and correct Christianity would arise unchanged. I held this belief at one point and took it for granted, but as I said above it just seems so odd now.

It's clear the formation of canon had plenty of arguments and politicking involved. Like the controversy over Revelation. We also have references to completely missing texts, like some of Paul's letters and the Gospel to the Hebrews that are held in high regard by earlier writers. What we have is great, but it's not like it's some sort of carefully planned and crafted instruction manual for Christianity.


I'm not sure that's the correct way to define Sola Scriptura. I believe most reformed baptists (read Calvinists) define it as a statement about the nature of scripture that implies the exclusivity of scripture (theopneustos ... translated from the original Greek as "God breathed")

Scripture is then the sole (ie unique) infallible rule of faith for the Church. This doesn't mean that the church will not/can not have other rules of faith, natural revelation, etc. but none of that can displace the unique position of scripture as the sole infallible rule of faith. There can be other rules of faith but they must be under the authority of scripture.
Faithful Ag
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AgLiving06 said:

Faithful Ag said:

Quote:

Rephrased, your argument is effectively that:

1. Through men, God delivered His Word.
2. Later, other men, apparently on their own, somehow recognized what was the Word of God.


This is not the same thing as what I am asking you to agree with me on. There is a massive difference between being "apparently on their own" vs. not being on their own but instead protected and guided into truth by the Holy Spirit.

Fair, If it's your opinion that man could not have achieved an infallible book without the Holy Spirit, I can agree to that since it's a shift from what Zobel said previously.
Would you also agree that these men were working together in their process as a part of group and were not coming to their own, independent, personal decisions or conclusions on what was indeed inspired Scripture and what was not?
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