1 Cor. 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Do you feel this way at your church on Sunday?

It seems like is really a larger conversation around what's the point of Sunday morning. there are those that would disagree about whether the point is to cause the non-believer to be convicted of his/her sin and come to repentance.

The prophecy he speaks of is for believers, not unbelievers (14:22). And the "point" of it is to build up the church (14:3).

The question is if an unbeliever comes in. Paul says that if he were convicted, called to account, and his sin is exposed, then he would conclude that God is among you. Some churches think the opposite and try to steer away from those elements.

AstroAg17 said:

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Has anyone ever seen an organization which consistently delivers the experience in the OP? I haven't.

Sounds like some Pentecostal type of tomfoolery.

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That's the previous verse:
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

In this context is "to prophesy" to proclaim the truth rather than a prediction of future events?

Frok said:

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In this context is "to prophesy" to proclaim the truth rather than a prediction of future events?

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A traditional prophet did not necessarily predict future events, but rather heard something from God, or saw a vision, and repeated it to God's people. With respect to the unbeliever entering, apparently the "secrets of his heart". See the woman at the well where Jesus discloses her sins and she responds "I perceive that you are a prophet."

^ Prophets also applied or interpreted the law for the events that the people of God through dreams and visions.

If the prophecy wasn't fulfilled in a couple of years then they were usually put to death.

People should not despise the prophecy of the canon of scripture. But they also should be more concerned about the whole thing. They aren't as much as they should be. That's for sure.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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AstroAg17 said:

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Has anyone ever seen an organization which consistently delivers the experience in the OP? I haven't.

Sounds like some Pentecostal type of tomfoolery.

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That's the previous verse:
23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

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At least the Assembly of God are careful about this. I can't say that about many circles of charismatic/Pentecostals.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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1 Cor. 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Do you feel this way at your church on Sunday?

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I feel God is with me 24/7. And especially around other believers in my office. The Spirit is real.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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1 Cor. 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Do you feel this way at your church on Sunday?

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"feelings" are deceptive.
I dont "feel" like I've been forgiven and received grace and absolution every time I go up to the altar for communion, but I take comfort knowing that despite my shortcomings of faith and enthusiasm, that it is true nonetheless.

lord have mercy on me!

Martin Q. Blank said:

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1 Cor. 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

Do you feel this way at your church on Sunday?

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I do.

I also feel this way about the sermons I listen to daily during my commute to and from work.

"Falling on his face" I see as more of a cultural difference between 'then and there' and 'here and now'. Is Christ, Him crucified, and risen from the dead preached in a consistent manner that convicts the hearer of The Word? That elicits a different response in 1st century Corinth than 21st century America.

If you want people to feel humbled, then use the stories of Christ, the apostles, the martyrs and the transcendent human beings whose very lives shame us in comparison.

If I walked into your church and you started telling me how terrible I am, then I'm turning around and leaving. I don't need a bunch of self-righteous strangers telling me what I already know

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If you want people to feel humbled, then use the stories of Christ, the apostles, the martyrs and the transcendent human beings whose very lives shame us in comparison.

If I walked into your church and you started telling me how terrible I am, then I'm turning around and leaving. I don't need a bunch of self-righteous strangers telling me what I already know

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One one hand, I want to ask why someone else telling you what you already know causes you to leave. They are speaking the truth to you (as you admit). Why leave? Why do they factor into it at all?

On the other hand, I do believe that how you communicate is important and the line between self-righteous and empathetic while giving the same message is razor thin. The person who believes that they themselves are also terrible will give a very different message than the person who doesn't.

After reading through the text I think Paul is trying to make a point to the Corinthians to not have one gift dominate over another. If everyone speaks in tongues but nobody prophecies then visitors will think your nuts. Tongue-speaking was somewhat "showy" and thus maybe more popular to focus on?

I do think a modern comparison is churches not fulling speaking the truth in efforts to not offend anyone. Maybe obsessive focus on church programs to entice people to come but not enough focus on theology.

2 Timothy 4:3


"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,"

Some have more of an itch than others. We all better watch out for it.

Frok said:

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After reading through the text I think Paul is trying to make a point to the Corinthians to not have one gift dominate over another. If everyone speaks in tongues but nobody prophecies then visitors will think your nuts. Tongue-speaking was somewhat "showy" and thus maybe more popular to focus on?

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It's the opposite. Paul says that prophecy is greater than tongues (v5) because you can understand a prophecy, but in a church like Corinth where everyone speaks Greek, tongues is useless (v9). If your minister preached in Russian (who doesn't know Russian), it would be pretty amazing to everyone, but beyond that it wouldn't be helpful because nobody in your congregation understands Russian. Prophecy builds up the church, tongues doesn't necessarily (unless someone can interpret). Paul concludes:
19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

As far as the OP, I was interested in the hypothetical unbeliever entering the church. He hears a prophesy (sermon today) where the secrets of his heart are disclosed, he's called to account, and is convicted. This makes him fall on his face and worship. It is the "typical" conversion. Yet churches today, in an attempt to be "seeker friendly" and not appear to be judgmental, remove these elements.

There is a real warfare going on in the spirit between falling into antinomianism/lawlessness and legalism.

This has always been the case for both the individual and the cooperate household of God. Rightly dividing the word of God is what the Apostle calls us to do by teaching the full or whole counsel of God.

Good point, I agree.

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One one hand, I want to ask why someone else telling you what you already know causes you to leave. They are speaking the truth to you (as you admit). Why leave? Why do they factor into it at all?

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Imagine being obese and walking into a doctor's office. The obese doctor makes no effort to get to know you or why you are there. Instead he just starts off talking about how your obesity is disgusting and bad for your health. Then he give you some dieting information and sets up a weight loss plan with weekly follow ups. Would you keep going to that doctor? I wouldn't. I would walk right out of a church if the first thing they ever saw and cared about was pointing out my sin and convicting me for it.

People come to church for sanctuary, love, community, and guidance. Lambasting newcomers for their sins doesn't fit any of that. As far as I can tell, the soul-gazing into the hidden sins of others is no longer a common gift. There, I also would bet money that things like gay couples, trans people, and couples out of wedlock that attend church would be routinely singled out for such treatment due to these sins being visible and apparent. Meanwhile the avaricious deacon, sexually predatious associate pastor, the alcoholic Sunday school teacher, and the abusive usher would never seem to get called out.

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. Lambasting newcomers for their sins doesn't fit any of that.

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Telling people the truth is not lambasting. You are trying to turn this into something it is not.

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But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all

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The OP specifically thinks his church should be publicly calling out the sins of strangers that enter the church, despite the fact that none of the members can actually prophesy. So what does that look like to you in practice?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all

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The OP specifically thinks his church should be publicly calling out the sins of strangers that enter the church, despite the fact that none of the members can actually prophesy. So what does that look like to you in practice?

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A sermon.

But you did get me thinking. The Corinthian prophet had knowledge of the unbeliever's sin and called him to account. Would this equate to the "visible" sins you listed?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all

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The OP specifically thinks his church should be publicly calling out the sins of strangers that enter the church, despite the fact that none of the members can actually prophesy. So what does that look like to you in practice?

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A sermon.

But you did get me thinking. The Corinthian prophet had knowledge of the unbeliever's sin and called him to account. Would this equate to the "visible" sins you listed?

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A sermon is by one man. It does not involve the entire congregation calling out an individual stranger's sin even if the preacher specifically calls out the stranger. The passage above says that everyone is participating, convicting, and prophesying.

I don't have any problem with people calling out visible sin and giving corrective instructions. However, the hidden sins are at least as destructive, and one of the biggest problems I've seen in churches is the congregation getting obsessed with visible sin and completely ignoring or even actively covering up the hidden sins

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However, the hidden sins are at least as destructive, and one of the biggest problems I've seen in churches is the congregation getting obsessed with visible sin and completely ignoring or even actively covering up the hidden sins

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Of course, that is why we need to proclaim the truth and not sugarcoat it. The truth convicts those who live with these hidden sins.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all

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The OP specifically thinks his church should be publicly calling out the sins of strangers that enter the church, despite the fact that none of the members can actually prophesy. So what does that look like to you in practice?

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A sermon.

But you did get me thinking. The Corinthian prophet had knowledge of the unbeliever's sin and called him to account. Would this equate to the "visible" sins you listed?

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A sermon is by one man. It does not involve the entire congregation calling out an individual stranger's sin even if the preacher specifically calls out the stranger. The passage above says that everyone is participating, convicting, and prophesying.

I don't have any problem with people calling out visible sin and giving corrective instructions. However, the hidden sins are at least as destructive, and one of the biggest problems I've seen in churches is the congregation getting obsessed with visible sin and completely ignoring or even actively covering up the hidden sins

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There are no prophets today so the passage isn't going to be applicable on how a congregation prophecies.

Maybe you've been to some Westboro type churches, but I have never seen an unbeliever called out the way you describe. A sermon exposes hidden and visible sins alike to the listener. The unbeliever is called to account and convicted either way.

You must plow the ground by including all sins before planting the seed.

Hosea 10:12

"Sow for yourselves righteousness; reap steadfast love; break up your fallow ground, for it is the time to seek the LORD, that he may come and rain righteousness upon you."

Fair enough. I've got no issue with a sermon that condemns sin. I was not getting that vibe from your original post

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Fair enough. I've got no issue with a sermon that condemns sin. I was not getting that vibe from your original post

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I obviously missed the point all together. Sounds more like sinners in the hands of an angry God theology which I reject.

And imho, sermons are not just for unbelievers. They are to edify the believers. To encourage and build up.

And that is why I respect pastors so much. I can not imagine the pressure of making sure you are preaching to believers and reaching the lost. And that you have the exact right theology and tone. God bless them.

dermdoc said:

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And that is why I respect pastors so much. I can not imagine the pressure of making sure you are preaching to believers and reaching the lost. And that you have the exact right theology and tone. God bless them.

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Amen.

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Imagine being obese and walking into a doctor's office. The obese doctor makes no effort to get to know you or why you are there. Instead he just starts off talking about how your obesity is disgusting and bad for your health. Then he give you some dieting information and sets up a weight loss plan with weekly follow ups. Would you keep going to that doctor? I wouldn't. I would walk right out of a church if the first thing they ever saw and cared about was pointing out my sin and convicting me for it.

People come to church for sanctuary, love, community, and guidance. Lambasting newcomers for their sins doesn't fit any of that. As far as I can tell, the soul-gazing into the hidden sins of others is no longer a common gift. There, I also would bet money that things like gay couples, trans people, and couples out of wedlock that attend church would be routinely singled out for such treatment due to these sins being visible and apparent. Meanwhile the avaricious deacon, sexually predatious associate pastor, the alcoholic Sunday school teacher, and the abusive usher would never seem to get called out.

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That's why I wrote the second paragraph in my comment. Effort to get to know your or not, if the doctor approached you with the angle of "let's both get in better shape because we are both obese and disgusting" may elicit a different response by you.

The "external vs internal" one is a tough one. Sin is sin, right? (in this context, we don't delineate in terms of whether we should avoid it or not) If one adopts the theology that a homosexual lifestyle is sinful as well as heterosexual adultery, then I would say that calling out the husband who brings his mistress to church but not the gay couple would be incongruent, no? It's unfortunate for the sinner that they can hide it, right?

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And that is why I respect pastors so much. I can not imagine the pressure of making sure you are preaching to believers and reaching the lost. And that you have the exact right theology and tone. God bless them.

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Personally, I think our church model is wrong if we think that a pastor must do both of those things, and I think it's a completely unfair ask of church leadership to do this.

That said, some is self inflicted, and we should be a voice to our pastors to help them out.

diehard03 said:

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And that is why I respect pastors so much. I can not imagine the pressure of making sure you are preaching to believers and reaching the lost. And that you have the exact right theology and tone. God bless them.

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Personally, I think our church model is wrong if we think that a pastor must do both of those things, and I think it's a completely unfair ask of church leadership to do this.

That said, some is self inflicted, and we should be a voice to our pastors to help them out.

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I agree with you. I just know my personality and how much pressure I would put on myself. So yes, the self inflicted part is correct and we need to do what you said.