Macarthur said:

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Zobel said:

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The issue is conflating an administration with a person, and using silly pejoratives like "vile".

That's neither objective or fact based.

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Sure, the term vile is subjective. I assume you think he's not vile?

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He has unredeeming personal traits. As does Biden. I do not consider either as vile. The closest politicians I can think of attaching the word "vile" to are Hillary and Obama.

And we disagree here also which is fine. I do not have a the problem you seem to have that you can not understand how anyone could not consider Trump "vile".

I see, you want it verbatim. My inferences will not convince you otherwise, but I will do my best to explain.

Abolish law and order: Page 7, paragraph 3, Line 1 - Democrats believe we need to overhaul the criminal justice system from top to bottom. The whole paragraph is full of hyperbole, I would not accuse me of fear mongering after reading that paragraph. BTW, last night Biden specifically said that police should respond to situations with a social worker or psychologist...do you really think that will work? Page 7, paragraph 4 - dramatically reduce incarceration, yet the plan doesn't tell me how. BTW, Trump has actually delivered on this. Page 7, paragraph 5, line 1 - ...preventing people from entering the criminal justice system in the first (father's in homes would go a long way in helping this). Page 8 to Page 9 transition - limit the sale of weapons to domestic law enforcement. Page 9, 1st full paragraph - reining in qualified immunity. Page 38 last two paragraphs...terminate travel bans and expand Dreamer protection to parents of children citizen (surely you realize this completely opens the door for complete and perpetual amnesty). Page 39 last paragraph...family unity should be the guiding principle for immigration policy (shouldn't it be law and order?) Page 40 4th paragraph...detention should be a last resort (doesn't distinguish between violent and non-violent).

Anti-life: Page 35, paragraph 3 - ...including safe and legal abortion. Restore federal funding for Planned Parenthood (it is a fact that PP operates on the infanticide border). Actually this whole paragraph simply screams anti-life. This one is really pretty easy. The democratic party has moved so far from safe, legal, and rare. To imply otherwise is simply not true.

Anti-family: There are 17 references to LGBTQ in the document. I could go through all of them, but you can start on page 35 if you like. Essentially the document states that if you say the words LGBTQ no one can tell you anything that might hurt your feelings. From a Biblical perspective, this is clearly anti-family and does not set apart marriage (...let no man put asunder).

Islam: There's a lot in the document about schools. The video where Biden said we should teach Islam is easy to find on the internet, I'll let you do the search. Take a look at https://txvalues.org/ for more info.

I realize none of this will change your mind.

Please explain how you think this document validates the Biblical world view associated with life and family.

AGC said:

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PacifistAg said:

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The fact that I don't vote is no secret. Last night did nothing to sway me from that conviction. Wow. We watched about 10 minutes of it, and it may have been the worst 10 minutes of 2020.

The way I described it to our best friends, it was like two 8 year olds arguing. One was raised by parents that clearly taught some basic manners, but the kid would revert to 8 yr old antics every now and then. The other was raised by adults who did not care what their kid did or said, and you saw that throughout. Neither came across well, but goodness, Trump was insufferable.

But neither hold a Christian worldview anyways, so...

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As painful as it was this is not a good take. Biden denied things on factual record (his son's compensation from burisma, getting $3.5M from the Moscow mayor's wife, the green new deal which is on his campaign site, etc.). If lying and accusing others of lies when they speak the truth is 'basic manners' I'm not sure those parents did a good job.

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I'm talking about the simple act of not constantly interrupting. They are both liars, although Trump's lying is on steroids. And it wasn't really a comment on their actual parents, but just their general behavior of acting like children.

dermdoc said:

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Macarthur said:

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And can you honestly tell me that if Jesus watched that last night, he would vote for Trump? Seriously?

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Yes I would. Killing babies is a big deal. And putting pro life judges on the SC is how you stop it.

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The bigger question is would Jesus vote? I don't see Him getting too much into advising Caesar on how to run his earthly kingdom. Heck, Christ was tempted with political power, and rejected it.

I'm confused.

abortion = anti-life
LGBTQ = anti-family

Please explain.

Quote:

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Anti-family: There are 17 references to LGBTQ in the document. I could go through all of them, but you can start on page 35 if you like. Essentially the document states that if you say the words LGBTQ no one can tell you anything that might hurt your feelings. From a Biblical perspective, this is clearly anti-family and does not set apart marriage (...let no man put asunder).

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First, you do realize there are LGBTQ families, right? I know of one personally who are devout Christians and one of the parents just came out and transitioned. Please show me where it says "if you say the words LGBTQ no one can tell you anything that might hurt your feelings". I looked at Page 35, and all I see is not allowing discrimination of patients by doctors, hospitals, insurance companies, etc based on a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

From a Biblical world view it needs to be explained. If that's what you think from a personal perspective, no explanation required.

The discussion is about Biblical world view, maybe we are confusing two discussions.

What does the Bible say about life and family? It appears to me that it is clearly pro-Image Bearer (from conception to death) and pro-family through the monogamous union of a man and woman.

Civil04 said:

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The discussion is about Biblical world view, maybe we are confusing two discussions.

What does the Bible say about life and family? It appears to me that it is clearly pro-Image Bearer (from conception to death) and pro-family through the monogamous union of a man and woman.

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Then you cannot support either candidate. Trump is certainly not pro-life, or pro-monogamous marriage. Neither side possesses a "biblical worldview".

But there are LGBTQ Christian families. I referenced one above. She actually transitioned because of her being so "pro-Image Bearer". It saved that "Image Bearer's" life...and their marriage/family.

schmendeler said:

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Civil04 said:

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I'm confused.

abortion = anti-life
LGBTQ = anti-family

Please explain.

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abortion = right to terminate pregnancy; it doesn't mean you are against life
LGBTQ = lots of families exist of people that are LGBTQ

does this really need to be explained?

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Please tell us what it means to 'terminate a pregnancy'. What is one pregnant with, if not another life? The idea that one can support taking a life and be pro-life is doublespeak.

Edit: so I guess yes, it does need to be explained. Also theologically lgbtq families are not God's intended order nor can they fulfill some of his original commands to man. Ergo merely saying x number of people living together or x adults + children is a family is not the say as being pro-family.

PacifistAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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Macarthur said:

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And can you honestly tell me that if Jesus watched that last night, he would vote for Trump? Seriously?

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Yes I would. Killing babies is a big deal. And putting pro life judges on the SC is how you stop it.

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The bigger question is would Jesus vote? I don't see Him getting too much into advising Caesar on how to run his earthly kingdom. Heck, Christ was tempted with political power, and rejected it.

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You are correct and I should not have let myself get baited into the reply I gave. I really need to avoid political topics.

kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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dermdoc said:

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Strange but I look at the platforms and what the candidates view on the issues are. Not their personalities.

I am not in favor of higher taxes, abortion, the Green new deal(which Biden I believed said he was not for but the dems certainly are, more open borders, sanctuary cities, Antifa, etc. So basically I am against everything the dems are running on.

Biden May be a "nicer guy" but that is not what I base my vote on.

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If one were to write an inverse post of this it would look like this:

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Strange but I look at the platforms and what the candidates view on the issues are. Not their personalities.

I am not in favor of more tax breaks for the rich, fewer civil liberties, dismantling all environmental protections, Muslim bans, demonizing Mexican immigrants, white supremacism groups, etc. So basically I am against everything the repubs are running on.

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If I had seriously posted the above, you would rightfully call it out as a mischaracterization and an intentionally ignorant categorization of republican beliefs.

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No I would not. If you are not for what the repubs are running on you should not vote for them.

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So.. . . . If I said that republicans are pro more tax breaks for the rich, fewer civil liberties, dismantling all environmental protections, Muslim bans, demonizing Mexican immigrants, white supremacism groups, etc. . . . then you wouldn't object?

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You are free to believe what you want to believe. God bless you.

Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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explain

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Antifa is a laugher. Why is the right always so scared. Aren't you Anti-Fascist? I don't like Fascist. And NO ONE is running on ANTIFA.

Antifa is not anti fascist. They are a great example of it like the nazi brown shirts.

The Democrats from mayors, governors, district attorneys have pretty much let them and BLM run wild. Not arresting or if arrested no prosecutions.

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I do not believe ANTIFA is a problem. Nope.

There are some looters and aholes that need to be brought to justice.

And some of those are right wing aholes.

https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/


I might ask if you are actually being intellectually honest

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So all the violence by Antifa on the west coast, burning down buildings, assaults, intimidation is not a problem? Harassing old people just trying to cross the street is OK?

Did you see what went on in Portland and Seattle?

SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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explain

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Antifa is a laugher. Why is the right always so scared. Aren't you Anti-Fascist? I don't like Fascist. And NO ONE is running on ANTIFA.

Antifa is not anti fascist. They are a great example of it like the nazi brown shirts.

The Democrats from mayors, governors, district attorneys have pretty much let them and BLM run wild. Not arresting or if arrested no prosecutions.

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I do not believe ANTIFA is a problem. Nope.

There are some looters and aholes that need to be brought to justice.

And some of those are right wing aholes.

https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/


I might ask if you are actually being intellectually honest

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So all the violence by Antifa on the west coast, burning down buildings, assaults, intimidation is not a problem? Harassing old people just trying to cross the street is OK?

Did you see what went on in Portland and Seattle?

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There are bad actors that may try to rest under the banner of ANTIFA. Those bad actors need to be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/what-antifa-trump.html

Antifa, by definition, is a reactionary movement.

and I noticed that you totally ignored the link to the article about right wing 'impersonators'. No, I am not convinced that antifa is a problem, at all. There have been some bad actors recently and those have to be addressed but taking a bigger picture look at this, the right wing extremism is a far greater threat to our country and it's ideals.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/us-rightwing-extremists-attacks-deaths-database-leftwing-antifa

SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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SirDippinDots said:

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Macarthur said:

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explain

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Antifa is a laugher. Why is the right always so scared. Aren't you Anti-Fascist? I don't like Fascist. And NO ONE is running on ANTIFA.

Antifa is not anti fascist. They are a great example of it like the nazi brown shirts.

The Democrats from mayors, governors, district attorneys have pretty much let them and BLM run wild. Not arresting or if arrested no prosecutions.

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I do not believe ANTIFA is a problem. Nope.

There are some looters and aholes that need to be brought to justice.

And some of those are right wing aholes.

https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/


I might ask if you are actually being intellectually honest

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So all the violence by Antifa on the west coast, burning down buildings, assaults, intimidation is not a problem? Harassing old people just trying to cross the street is OK?

Did you see what went on in Portland and Seattle?

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Quote:

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No, I am not convinced that antifa is a problem, at all. There have been some bad actors recently and those have to be addressed but taking a bigger picture look at this, the right wing extremism is a far greater threat to our country and it's ideals.

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As I've said on other threads, people see what they want to see.

I don't vote either. Maybe if debates were about the metaphysics of the person or reality I might consider it.

Fair enough.
Now let's lose the "vile" term.

Thanks.

Macarthur said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough.
Now let's lose the "vile" term.

Thanks.

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Trump is vile. I said it about him and will continue. I did not say Republicans are.

And I still haven't had anyone explain to me what is so vile about Obama.

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God bless you.

kurt vonnegut said:

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AGC said:

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schmendeler said:

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Civil04 said:

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I'm confused.

abortion = anti-life
LGBTQ = anti-family

Please explain.

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abortion = right to terminate pregnancy; it doesn't mean you are against life
LGBTQ = lots of families exist of people that are LGBTQ

does this really need to be explained?

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Please tell us what it means to 'terminate a pregnancy'. What is one pregnant with, if not another life? The idea that one can support taking a life and be pro-life is doublespeak.

Edit: so I guess yes, it does need to be explained. Also theologically lgbtq families are not God's intended order nor can they fulfill some of his original commands to man. Ergo merely saying x number of people living together or x adults + children is a family is not the say as being pro-family.

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Is it also doublespeak to be pro-life and also capital punishment or pro-military? Pro-life in this context pertains only to unborn babies and not to all life - which is why it is a problematic term. A better term would be 'anti-abortion' or something.

It is astounding to me that being pro LGBTQ can be twisted up to mean that one is against the nuclear family. I believe that people should have the freedom to not be Christians in this country. . .. does that make me anti-God?

And what role is for government to enforce God's intended order? I might suggest that saying government has any role is this is anti-democratic and anti-freedom.

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I suggest you re-read the genesis of the family debate before getting upset. This derived from macarthur saying Biden was a practicing Christian, to which civil detailed how his platform was anti-family from a Christian perspective. As such what I posted is well within the bounds of the thread and discussion going on regarding Christians and family values. Biden is well out of bounds as a Christian not only via the Bible but tradition and practice as well. There's no twisting necessary. Post-moderns, post structuralists, critical theorists may disagree but it does not stand the test of time (tradition is democracy through time as Chesterton said - Christians have voted!).

Neither of your objections invalidates that abortion is inherently anti-life. They are more accurately viewed as justifications or mitigating factors for committing anti-life behavior. Within the Christian context God Himself instituted some such punishments and commanded raising an army if I recall correctly. Since we're talking Biden and Christianity this should be important. Again, post moderns et. al. would have us disregard this but it's relevant to the discussion if one suggests it would conflict. In fact God detested cultures that sacrificed their children for fertility and crops. Full stop.