Atheist warns: Without Christianity, we are heading into an impenetrable darkness

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10:34a, 5/28/20
Rocag
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11:13a, 5/28/20
AG
Hospitals are the easiest example. Warning for a Wikipedia link: History of Hospitals. You can find similar information in other sources, but hospitals were found in cultures that predate Christianity and in other cultures that weren't strongly influenced by Christianity. I guess you could argue they might not have been as widespread as they would be in later, Christian societies but I don't really think that matters if you are trying to argue that Christianity is the origin of such practices.

As for education, there were schools in plenty of cultures that predate Christianity. China and India provide two good examples of this. Both have strong traditions of encouraging education within their populations. Who could receive a formal education varied but was more often than not limited to the wealthy, however in both cultures there were at times pushes to provide more widespread schooling. Government sponsored schools in the Qing dynasty, for example, didn't charge tuition. I would point out, however, that even in Western society there have been barriers placed on who can receive a formal education based on wealth and gender that remained until relatively recently.

I'd also say I'm not trying to argue that Christian cultures haven't furthered efforts to provide health and education to more people. Of course they have. I'd only say that they aren't the only ones to do so, nor were they the first. There's this effort in some portions of Christianity to argue that everything positive in the world originated with Christianity and I'm sorry if you feel that way but it just isn't true.
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AGC
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In reply to [removed post] • 11:20a, 5/28/20
AG
AstroAg17 said:
JJMt said:
Interesting. Can you give some examples of country-wide cultures, that were not tied to a religious belief, that demonstrated empathy?
Animals have empathy and probably do not have formalized religion.


What empathy does the lion have towards the ousted's offspring? The black widow towards her mate? Some birds can only support one chick at a time so they kick the oldest out of the nest. Where is it then?

Is there a way to measure empathy in animals other than projecting one's own feelings and confirmation bias on to them? My kids love the unusual animal friends show on Disney+ but there are some really unhealthy people out there that think animals are humans with fur.
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In reply to Rocag • 11:33a, 5/28/20
Rocag
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11:59a, 5/28/20
AG
Again I'd ask for what cultures you would even accept as being non-religious in nature. Shared cultural beliefs of some sort are a part of what defines a culture. Widespread non-religious beliefs are a fairly new thing as far as the historical record shows, though again not necessarily non-theistic beliefs.

I suppose I don't understand why you are so focused on institutions. Why is a culture that does a good job supporting education and healthcare without long lasting institutions necessarily inferior to one who does so through those institutions? Why would whether a school has survived to the present even matter?

Seems like we're getting quite a ways away from the original point here.
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In reply to Rocag • 12:22p, 5/28/20
Rocag
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In reply to [removed post] • 1:39p, 5/28/20
AG
I didn't actually assert that there were numerous historical examples of non-religious societies. In fact when asked for an example I advised to look to modern secular humanist cultures with the caveat that some people consider even those to be "religious". One of the issues we face is the fact that what makes a belief religious is fairly poorly defined. Cultures throughout history have grappled with some of the same questions that we still do today. How did the world come to be? How did we get here? What's the point of it all? Humanity has never been content with the answer "We don't know" and so they've come up with answers. And since we almost always consider those answers to be the basis of a culture's religion we get to say everyone is religious. Except that throughout history there's ample evidence showing that disbelief was pretty common.

And I think there's a bit of a bait and switch happening here in which on one hand you argue that we need Christianity in order to avoid social decline but on the other dismiss non-Christian examples of empathy and positive social institutions as irrelevant because they're not non-religious. It's basically saying religion is necessary for empathy, but any religion will do.

Perhaps you have a valid point in that I can't know that a completely non-religious society would promote institutions currently found in modern society like schools and hospitals and the like. But the flip side of that is you can't know that they won't do that either. I believe there's sufficient evidence to show that the promotion of efforts to educate and ensure the well-being of people within a society is not solely found or rooted in Christian cultures. Meaning the conclusion that a society's turn away from Christianity is necessarily detrimental is questionable at best.
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Aggrad08
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7:09p, 5/28/20
AG
This century will be our first real dive into truly post religious societies, like every culture and religion that came before those societies will inherit a number of characteristics of the ones that came before. And as we've already begun to see, those post religious societies will influence the religions that remain.

We don't live in a vacuum and never have. For my part I'm not particularly worried about it as it seems to be largely going about as well or better than it ever has.
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In reply to Rocag • 8:33p, 5/28/20
Ordhound04
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12:38a, 5/29/20
AG
Historically speaking explicitly atheistic states have been primarily, if not solely communist nations.

Maybe Mexico and France at points during their revolutions, and when they were Atheistic, they were bloody.

Not sure I would consider those good examples.

Even from a relativistic standpoint, the sheer industrial scale of brutality and death by those explicitly atheistic nation states are much worse than anything Christendom offered.
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In reply to [removed post] • 10:43a, 5/29/20
AG
AstroAg17 said:
I do think religion promotes generosity, but it's not required. If the non religious Americans split off from the religious, the religious Americans would be more charitable.

Atheismland would probably have a large social safety net though, which counts as charity in my opinion but is not reflected in stats. It probably doesn't extend to people from other countries either.


Perhaps it's worth asking what compromises charity and generosity. If it's compelled (such as taxes required to pay for said safety net) is it really charity or generosity? If it's disconnected from the desire of the individual giving it (since governments provide to all array of groups) is it? (i.e. funds given to planned parenthood are not how I want my tax dollars used but some would consider it charity) Where does it start and stop with government given the bureaucracy and cronyism (is it charity if it's misappropriated)?
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Quad Dog
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In reply to AGC • 11:05a, 5/29/20
AG
You could also ask if charity is compelled in religion too. Simply: give to charity and be generous or spend eternity in the bad place.
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In reply to Quad Dog • 11:39a, 5/29/20
AG
Quad Dog said:
You could also ask if charity is compelled in religion too. Simply: give to charity and be generous or spend eternity in the bad place.


You could. I was simply asking Astro to flesh out his ideas of charity and generosity and define how government involvement changes those, if at all. I'm curious what he thinks about it because I have a hard time seeing it as charity in those circumstances.
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schmendeler
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1:16p, 5/29/20
AG
sikhs and mormons seem to be the nicest people, and best citizens as far as my observation goes. are we to conclude that they hold the philosophy that is best or most true? you shall know them by their fruit?
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1:34p, 5/29/20
schmendeler
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In reply to [removed post] • 1:58p, 5/29/20
AG
JJMt said:
Now that's a different issue than the OP, isn't it? I don't think that anyone on this thread was arguing that the impact of Christians on culture proves or is evidence for the truth of Christianity (but someone may have argued that - I'm getting old), but rather simply that taking Christianity out of our culture would be disastrous.
but is it christianity that we need to keep, or simply the good ideas that christianity harbored that still have value?

i'm not sure i agree that we need to keep christianity. sure it was the major force in the world the last 2,000 years and ultimately great principles that we consider essential came to mainstream in that time, but do those ideas lose their relevance if christianity goes by the wayside? i don't think so.
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In reply to schmendeler • 2:07p, 5/29/20
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In reply to [removed post] • 2:14p, 5/29/20
AG
JJMt said:
There's absolutely no evidence that a society that abandons Christianity would keep the values propounded by Christianity. Why would it? All of the evidence in our culture is to the contrary. Just look at giving. There is a direct correlation between charitable giving and Christianity. The further away people get from Christianity, the lower their voluntary charitable gifts are. As a non-Christian, it's irrational to take any action that does not directly benefit me and mine.

I used to volunteer at a Christian inner city school in Dallas. I didn't see any similar schools sponsored by atheists (in fact, I didn't see any non-Christian private inner city schools in Dallas. There were several Christian ones, but those were the only ones I knew of.)

Sikhs may be nice people, but what is their culture like? I truly don't know.

Mormons might also be nice people, but it would be interesting to see what a Mormon culture would look like if it were not restrained.

it seems to me that we have quite a bit of charitable giving coming from non-religious sources. it's just that it came about as a result of the legislative process through voting in elected officials that were selected by the people to do so. it's just called a tax rather than a tithe or donation.

that also completely ignores organizations like united way or the red cross (despite the name) that have no religious orientation any longer.

you're telling me there are no non-religious schools in inner city dallas? i find it hard to believe. Dallas ISD has some hard questions to answer in that case.
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In reply to schmendeler • 3:45p, 5/29/20
AG
schmendeler said:
JJMt said:
Now that's a different issue than the OP, isn't it? I don't think that anyone on this thread was arguing that the impact of Christians on culture proves or is evidence for the truth of Christianity (but someone may have argued that - I'm getting old), but rather simply that taking Christianity out of our culture would be disastrous.
but is it christianity that we need to keep, or simply the good ideas that christianity harbored that still have value?

i'm not sure i agree that we need to keep christianity. sure it was the major force in the world the last 2,000 years and ultimately great principles that we consider essential came to mainstream in that time, but do those ideas lose their relevance if christianity goes by the wayside? i don't think so.


The 'good ideas' don't function outside of it. Imago Dei and the metaphysical are important parts of the idea of equality that we have. It's one of the things that helps transcend tribalism and stands in contrast to post modern / post structuralist / intersectional / CRT ideas.
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 4:38p, 5/29/20
AG
Aggrad08 said:
This century will be our first real dive into truly post religious societies, like every culture and religion that came before those societies will inherit a number of characteristics of the ones that came before. And as we've already begun to see, those post religious societies will influence the religions that remain.

We don't live in a vacuum and never have. For my part I'm not particularly worried about it as it seems to be largely going about as well or better than it ever has.


What about the past few decades of Western Europe? Japan? You find nothing worrying about their slow deaths and demographics? Their embrace of euthanasia, abortion as a means to 'eliminate' down s, and the various other ideas they embrace? What positives do you see? They're countries with no future right now.
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Ags4DaWin
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In reply to schmendeler • 7:36p, 5/29/20
schmendeler said:
JJMt said:
There's absolutely no evidence that a society that abandons Christianity would keep the values propounded by Christianity. Why would it? All of the evidence in our culture is to the contrary. Just look at giving. There is a direct correlation between charitable giving and Christianity. The further away people get from Christianity, the lower their voluntary charitable gifts are. As a non-Christian, it's irrational to take any action that does not directly benefit me and mine.

I used to volunteer at a Christian inner city school in Dallas. I didn't see any similar schools sponsored by atheists (in fact, I didn't see any non-Christian private inner city schools in Dallas. There were several Christian ones, but those were the only ones I knew of.)

Sikhs may be nice people, but what is their culture like? I truly don't know.

Mormons might also be nice people, but it would be interesting to see what a Mormon culture would look like if it were not restrained.

it seems to me that we have quite a bit of charitable giving coming from non-religious sources. it's just that it came about as a result of the legislative process through voting in elected officials that were selected by the people to do so. it's just called a tax rather than a tithe or donation.

that also completely ignores organizations like united way or the red cross (despite the name) that have no religious orientation any longer.

you're telling me there are no non-religious schools in inner city dallas? i find it hard to believe. Dallas ISD has some hard questions to answer in that case.


Taxes are not charitable. they are taken by force which is the very antithesis of charitable giving. Thus our legislated social safety net is not charity even though atheists like to tout it as evidence of secular charity. As has been seen over the past 60 years- eventually the people who benefit from this safety net come to rely upon it and look upon it as something they deserve to receive.

When a person receives charity it forces them to humble themselves and realize that there are areas of their life they must improve.

This makes charity beneficial for both the giver and the reciever because it helps both build character and become better people for it.

Social safety nets serve a purpose but if you look at the incarceration rate, literacy rate, drug abuse, abortion rate, poverty rate, and unwed pregnancy rate of the African American community pre- Great Society Social Safety Net and post Great Society Social Safety Net and the results are clear. Social safety nets over the long term are detrimental to people and communities.
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GQaggie
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In reply to Rocag • 5:03a, 5/30/20
AG
Quote:
Reminds me of the people who would say "Without my religion I'd be a mass murderer!" That doesn't make your religion good, it just makes you an awful person.
Awful by what standard?
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Rocag
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In reply to GQaggie • 11:08a, 5/30/20
AG
One that's ultimately subjective! But that's OK because the thing is every standard is subjective when you get down to the nitty gritty, including the subjective interpretation of an allegedly objective standard that so many religious folk claim to adhere to.
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In reply to Rocag • 2:47p, 5/30/20
AG
So by an "awful person", you just mean a "person whom I personally dislike"?
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Rocag
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In reply to GQaggie • 3:29p, 5/30/20
AG
Nope. One that by my own code of morals and ethics which I acknowledge to be subjective is an awful person. You might use your own subjective standard to decide differently and that's fine.
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In reply to Rocag • 3:35p, 5/30/20
AG
Rocag said:
Nope. One that by my own code of morals and ethics which I acknowledge to be subjective is an awful person. You might use your own subjective standard to decide differently and that's fine.
And that is why I need Jesus and God. I am not good enough to establish any code of morals and ethics.

Strongly disagree that everybody can set their own rules and morals. That is anarchy.
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Rocag
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In reply to dermdoc • 4:02p, 5/30/20
AG
It's an interesting assertion, but I'd argue that functionally setting your own ethical code is what already happens. Most people come to find that their religion just so happens to agree with their pre-existing beliefs. Funny how that works out, huh? Honestly, how many instances can you think of in which your religions provides a moral teaching you personally disagree with but decide you should follow anyway? And in how many cases does that religion provide a moral teaching you find reason to disregard?

To tie it back to the original topic, I'd argue that religion is just one way in which a culture spreads and maintains its rules and expectations. But it isn't necessarily the only way. There is, after all, more to culture as a whole than simply religion.
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In reply to Rocag • 6:27p, 5/30/20
Rocag
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In reply to [removed post] • 6:43p, 5/30/20
AG
I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. Or are you saying that even now you fundamentally disagree with the idea that those actions are immoral / unethical and do them solely because of a religious law against them?

You might be surprised to find that our culture hasn't been overrun by ex-Christian serial killers, rapists, and thieves despite so many Christians insisting that their faith is the only thing holding them back. I strongly suspect those who claim such things, even you, wouldn't really act that way if one day you gave up Christianity.
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In reply to Rocag • 8:09p, 5/30/20
schmendeler
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In reply to [removed post] • 8:11p, 5/30/20
AG
If you can't think of a reason to control your behaviour other than "God told me not to", you're either not very imaginative, or pretty dumb.
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In reply to Rocag • 8:11p, 5/30/20
AG
Rocag said:
I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. Or are you saying that even now you fundamentally disagree with the idea that those actions are immoral / unethical and do them solely because of a religious law against them?

You might be surprised to find that our culture hasn't been overrun by ex-Christian serial killers, rapists, and thieves despite so many Christians insisting that their faith is the only thing holding them back. I strongly suspect those who claim such things, even you, wouldn't really act that way if one day you gave up Christianity.


It hasn't? I would contend that the great unmooring has in fact opened the door to approval or enjoyment of all those things. Anyone that watches pornhub or supports PP, especially ex Christians, supports exactly those things.
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In reply to schmendeler • 8:13p, 5/30/20
AG
schmendeler said:
If you can't think of a reason to control your behaviour other than "God told me not to", you're either not very imaginative, or pretty dumb.


What makes this completely fabricated and arbitrary reason meaningful or moral in any way?
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In reply to schmendeler • 8:14p, 5/30/20
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In reply to AGC • 8:17p, 5/30/20
AG
AGC said:
schmendeler said:
If you can't think of a reason to control your behaviour other than "God told me not to", you're either not very imaginative, or pretty dumb.


What makes this completely fabricated and arbitrary reason meaningful or moral in any way?


What's wrong with fabricated and arbitrary, and what is meaningful and moral?
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