Paul tells Christians to keep Passover

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Redstone
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AG
Another example of why context and these META questions is so essential, not "I think this, as the interpreter"....
St. Paul was very well aware of his significant shortcomings when preaching to Greeks. St. John was much more successful, especially when he spoke in categories of the Logos.

Context is king, second only to Christ the King.

Your "view" of Scripture can be very dangerous. Think, instead, with the Church.

Division upon division is wrong. The Holy Spirit does not speak against Himself.
commando2004
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AG
Ordhound04 said:

So is Paul a heretic when he says in 1 Corinthians that we are not under the law? Is Paul, in scripture, wrong when he says to not get circumcised?
Who exactly was "under the law" in the first place? Before Jesus was born:

1. Were Jewish men obligated to get circumcised?
2. Were non-Jewish men obligated to get circumcised?
Redstone
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The Sacramental context is absolutely essential here.

Sacrament is a conduit of God's Grace, usually via physical means (body as Temple, priests absolving sins by the power of Christ, Mass as Sacrifice, Eucharist as manna from Heaven, baptism as new life as after the flood, St. Mary as Ark....)

So, now think about the Council of Jerusalem - presided over by St. James....and what did St. Peter think about following the pre-33AD physical rituals?
Win At Life
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commando2004 said:

Ordhound04 said:

So is Paul a heretic when he says in 1 Corinthians that we are not under the law? Is Paul, in scripture, wrong when he says to not get circumcised?
Who exactly was "under the law" in the first place? Before Jesus was born:

1. Were Jewish men obligated to get circumcised?
2. Were non-Jewish men obligated to get circumcised?
Both you guys are missing something important in your discussion on circumcision. Let me address that and we can move on to anything else you want to discuss. Paul personally saw to it that Timothy was circumcised in Acts 16, but then refused to have Titus circumcised in Galatians 2:3. So, there's obviously a contradiction here. They both cannot be right at the same time. Is that correct?

This is one of many supposed contradictions in Paul's teachings or apparent abolishing of the Law in Paul's teachings that people miss due to being untaught in scripture just like Peter tells us in his Epistle. The solution is shockingly simple. The short answer is that they are both acceptable. Although adults either chose to, or were commanded to circumcise occasionally in the OT, the commandment that stands for all time and applies to us is in Leviticus. Because Christianity has ignored this 1/5th of the Torah, they are untaught in scripture and therefore twist things around their own human logic, at best, or their pagan influenced antiquity, at worst. Let's read God's simple instructions.

Leviticus 12:3
On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

The commandment for circumcision is not to the one being circumcised, because an 8-day old baby is incapable of having a decision in the matter. The commandment applies to the father. An adult who grows up uncircumcised had no say in this. And there is no command for an adult to be circumcised himself. There is also no commandment that prohibits and adult from deciding to get circumcised.

Both are acceptable in scripture. So, when would you and when wouldn't you? That's up to your personal Chalacha (walk). The reason Paul didn't want Titus circumcised is because of the bad Jewish doctrine they were fighting that said an adult had to circumcise themselves in ORDER TO BE SAVED (Acts 15:1). If you are doing any work of scripture (circumcision is only one in a long list there), in order to earn salvation, then that work is wrong, even if it's something God has actually asked you to do (which He hasn't in this case).

If you truly study God's Law and apply it correctly with the Spirit in which it was given, then you will learn there is great freedom in there to live your life very differently from others, while both are following the Law. It is not too hard for you.

Deut 30:11-14
11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

His burden is not too heavy for you. You can do it. It's simple. Let us keep the feast. That's a simple command.
Ordhound04
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To be fair, I do keep it. I'm bilingual-ish so I'll call it Pascua. But I celebrated on the day of Jesus's resurrection, the true Passover foreshadowed in the old testament. Remember, the old testament was a foreshadowing. That's why we don't sacrifice animals anymore. It's also why it's OK to wear cotton blend Clothes.

Also, I seem to remember God coming to kill the son of Moses because he was uncircumcised. Moreover, baptism is now the new circumcision. (Colossians)

It seems to me you were picking and choosing what to follow. Particularly if you were saying circumcision isn't needed, well also saying we have to keep all of Torah.
Win At Life
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AG
I see we weren't able to get off the straw-man of circumcision. The command is for a son to be circumcised on the 8th day. An adult who grows up uncircumcised had no say in this. At that point, the Torah neither commands nor prohibits the one being circumcised to make that decision for themselves, which is why it was both okay for Paul to circumcise Timothy and not Titus. The doctrine of Jews in the 1st century of circumcising adults in order TO BE SAVED, is not scriptural, so Paul was against that, and I'm against that as well. On this matter, scripture in both the OT and NT is both clear and consistent.

As far as our doctrine on the feasts go, let's recap:
1) I am saying we should keep the feast of Passover in accordance with Leviticus 23 as directed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, while you say we should ignore this date.
2) I am saying we should keep the feast of the first day of unleavened bread in accordance with Leviticus 23 as directed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, while you say we should ignore this date.
3) I am saying we should remember Bikkurim (Hebrew for First Fruits) as described in Leviticus 23 as the biblical symbolism of Yeshua's ressurection, while you say to ignore this and instead call that day your Pascua.
4) I am saying we should keep the feast of the 7th day of unleavened bread in accordance with Leviticus 23 as directed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, while you say we should ignore this date.

And your assessment of this is that I'M the one picking and choosing what scriptures to follow and not follow?

Really?

Today is the 7th day of Unleavened Bread. Let us keep the feast!
Redstone
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1 Corinthians 5:7-8
7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batchas you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
(NIV)

Quote:

And your assessment of this is that I'M the one picking and choosing what scriptures to follow and not follow?

Yes.

In the Catholic and Orthodox tradition - the tradition that gifted us the Bible after 3 centuries of debate - anyone who "reads" outside the Church is in danger of error. (This does NOT mean one should not read. They absolutely should. I recommend the David Bentley Hart translation from Yale UP, it is outstanding.)

You are simply not more intelligent or holy or attentive or scholarly than the many others who have pored over the Bible, and neither am I.

We must read with the Church. Otherwise, we see division upon division, with such terrible consequences.

The two verses quoted above might make sense in your individual reading. Maybe you are right, but I say let us seriously think through these intractable META issues. What came first, the Bible or the Church? Who decides?
Ordhound04
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Win At Life said:

I see we weren't able to get off the straw-man of circumcision. The command is for a son to be circumcised on the 8th day. An adult who grows up uncircumcised had no say in this. At that point, the Torah neither commands nor prohibits the one being circumcised to make that decision for themselves, which is why it was both okay for Paul to circumcise Timothy and not Titus. The doctrine of Jews in the 1st century of circumcising adults in order TO BE SAVED, is not scriptural, so Paul was against that, and I'm against that as well. On this matter, scripture in both the OT and NT is both clear and consistent.

As far as our doctrine on the feasts go, let's recap:
1) I am saying we should keep the feast of Passover in accordance with Leviticus 23 as directed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, while you say we should ignore this date.
2) I am saying we should keep the feast of the first day of unleavened bread in accordance with Leviticus 23 as directed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, while you say we should ignore this date.
3) I am saying we should remember Bikkurim (Hebrew for First Fruits) as described in Leviticus 23 as the biblical symbolism of Yeshua's ressurection, while you say to ignore this and instead call that day your Pascua.
4) I am saying we should keep the feast of the 7th day of unleavened bread in accordance with Leviticus 23 as directed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8, while you say we should ignore this date.

And your assessment of this is that I'M the one picking and choosing what scriptures to follow and not follow?

Really?

Today is the 7th day of Unleavened Bread. Let us keep the feast!
Let's be clear on circumcision in the OT. It is clear from Exodus, the circumcision of the son of Moses is salvific. It was certainly a prerequisite for the Israelites before they entered the holy land. Seems to me you are twisting and prooftexting on that end.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:7-8

7 Purge out the OLD leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.

8 Therefore let us feast, NOT with the OLD leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

So Paul is specifically saying to not celebrate it as in Leviticus, but in the new way. The way that was promised. The way Christians do it now. It's why in Acts he preaches on the "First Day". The old way has been transformed into the new way. "I am the Way..." ("This is the way" reference that could not be helped)
Win At Life
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AG
Exodus 4:24-26

On the way to Egypt, Moses stopped at a place to spend the night. The Lord met Moses at that place and tried to kill him. 25 But Zipporah took a flint knife and circumcised her son. She took the skin and touched his feet. Then she said to Moses, "You are a bridegroom of blood to me." 26 Zipporah said this because she had to circumcise her son. So God let Moses live.

According to you, Moses was unsaved and going to hell, but this is the moment where Moses's soul was saved. And it wasn't even Moses who was circumcised. And it wasn't even Moses' decision to do this, as it was Moses' wife who decided to do it, and not Moses himself. So according to your doctrine from this scripture, the way a man's soul is saved is by having his wife circumcise his son (not himself) without the man even directing her to do that? What if the man directs his wife to do that? Does that make his salvation by this method invalid? What if the man is incapable of having children? Then he is doomed to hell because he never has a son that his wife can circumcise for him in order to save his own soul?
Zobel
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Quote:

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

You will notice here that the word "covenant" is italicized in the NASB, because they are telling you that word is not in the original text. More properly translated, it should read:

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "new" He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Hebrews chapter 8 is about the new priesthood in Yeshua verses the old earthly priesthood. The "new" in Hebrews 8:13 is the priesthood, not the covenant.
I've seen this attempt before but it requires a suspension of disbelief.

Here's the whole passage in a literal translation from the Greek. Italics are interpreted words, bold emphasis mine.

Quote:

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted upon better promises. For if what was first had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,
and I will ratify a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers,
in the day of My having taken hold of their hand,
to lead them out of the land of Egypt,
because they did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord,
putting My Laws into their mind,
and I will inscribe them upon their hearts;
and I will be to them God,
and they will be to Me for a people.
And they shall not teach, each his neighbor, and each his brother,
saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because all will know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest,
because I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I shall remember their sins no more.

In saying, "new," He has made obsolete the first; and that which is growing old and aging is near vanishing.
He never says new of anything except "covenant".
Win At Life
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AG
If that's true, then Paul was a big fat liar in front of all the Apostles in Jerusalem in Acts 21. Are you okay with Paul's lies about what he was teaching? How do you resolve that?
Redstone
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How can you resolve:
a). a strongly held individual reading
b). the text in Koine Greek fragments, the oldest of which is a 2nd or 3rd Century copy, then mediated and collected by the Apostolic Church, then copied again, then translated to Latin, then translated to Germano-English, then to English as we somewhat know it, then to whatever translation you like best.....

Would it not be better to read with the Apostolic Church?
Zobel
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Forget the consequences for now. Let's at least get over the fact that the passage is unequivocally speaking of a new covenant, not a new priesthood.
Win At Life
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I've provided a plausible interpretation that does not make Paul into a liar in Acts 21.

But, I'm willing to consider your interpretation as plausible as well.

However, if both are plausible, why would you prefer the one that makes Paul into a liar as opposed to the one that doesn't?
Zobel
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The word new is only use one time in Hebrews 8. And it's talking about a new covenant, quoting the scriptures.

So it isn't as if the idea of a new covenant is foreign or only happens in one place.

I don't see anything in acts 21 that contradicts Hebrews 8.
Win At Life
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AG
Acts 21:7-24
7 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

Paul made a Nazarite Vow, with sacrifices in the Temple no less, in order to declare that he was not teaching the Hebrews to forsake the Torah of Moses. If your interpretation of Hebrews is correct, then he's a huge liar. The whole Gospel is all big lie. How can that be?

Not to mention that all the Apostles in Jerusalem seemed to rejoice that people who believed in Yeshau also were zealous for keeping the Law. Will you rebuke James and the other Apostles for this heresy against your doctrine?
Zobel
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That doesn't contradict Hebrews 8.

The context of Acts 21 is that there were those among the Jews who were what we'd call Judaizers - that believed perhaps as you do that for Gentiles to become followers of Christ they had to become Jewish.

St Paul strongly disagreed, and emphasized this in his letters over and over. The line - no Jew, no Greek, no male, female, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free is about tribalism and how in Christ there is a new humanity that doesn't operate the way the old humanity does. All the walls of separation between men are broken down. Everything is upside down in Christ, because in Christ - new creation, back to things as they were, just humanity, Adam as a whole, and God. Reunited in the person of Christ Jesus, the new Adam.

St Paul here is being warned that there are people who say he is teaching Jews - not gentiles - to forsake Moses. Is this true? Has St Paul been doing this? No, that is not true.

Neither does this say that St Paul is telling the Gentiles to be circumcised. Here St Luke makes a distinction between what they said about Jews in the diaspora (v20-24) and the Gentiles (v25). Concerning the Gentiles one thing, concerning the Jews another.

Now... see what has happened. They accuse St Paul (wrongly) of brining Trophimus into the temple. (Speaking of wonderful passages of St Paul - in Ephesians 3 he notes that he is "prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles...my tribulations for you - this is the event that wound him up in jail).

But Trophimus was a convert! He was a gentile Christian! Now you tell me - a convert who has become Jewish, who follows the Law, who has been circumcised, why would that defile the Temple? And yet the account in Acts makes it clear Trophimus did not go to the Temple. Why?


Quote:

Paul made a Nazarite Vow, with sacrifices in the Temple no less, in order to declare that he was not teaching the Hebrews to forsake the Torah of Moses. If your interpretation of Hebrews is correct, then he's a huge liar. The whole Gospel is all big lie. How can that be?
St Paul was Jew. There was no problem with him keeping the Law. If you're suggesting that Hebrews is evidence of St Paul telling Jews to stop keeping the Law, I can't see it.

I also can't see how the Gospel becomes a lie based on this.

Quote:

Not to mention that all the Apostles in Jerusalem seemed to rejoice that people who believed in Yeshau also were zealous for keeping the Law. Will you rebuke James and the other Apostles for this heresy against your doctrine?
No, the Apostles were saying - it's awesome all these Jews have become followers of Christ (those among the Jews who have believed). This is contrasted to his message of those among the Gentiles (v19). But, the caution is that - they are all zealous for the Law. This isn't a doctrinal statement, it's a - hey St Paul, what you've been teaching the Gentiles has been construed that you are converting Jews from the Law, and there are those who are angry about that - so appease them.

I have no problem with Jews keeping the Law. Unfortunately, just as they couldn't sing the songs of Zion in Babylon (How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land?) you can't practice Judaism now. The Temple is destroyed. There is no priesthood, there are no sacrifices. There long awaited return of the presence of the Lord to the Temple happened - and they missed it, because it happened in the person of Christ Jesus. The prophet came, the way of the Lord was made straight - and it wasn't to re-establish the Temple or the Jewish rule. They missed it, and people who are trying to do that today are still missing it.

At any rate if we read on, Hebrews 9 clearly says "He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having taken place for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those having been called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

It doesn't matter how you see Acts 21 and Hebrews 8 interrelated. There is no mention of a new priesthood, only a new and living way, a new covenant. It is simply untrue that "new" in 8:13 is referring to the priesthood vs explaining the new covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31 which was spoken of in just the previous verses!
Win At Life
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AG
Okay, let's look at this problem in a different angle.

The covenant "thing" could be either new or renewed because Chadash makes no distinction apart from what the context gives it. However, the "thing" that's new/renewed is not an abolishment of the Law, but that the Law will now be on your mind. If the Law is "now" on your mind and in your heart to do it, then that certainly would be not just a renewal, but a strengthening of resolve to follow the Law.

But let's ignore that for a moment and consider it a new covenant. We still have a problem. You know that a marriage covenant is supposed to be life-long if followed properly. But what if a married guy flies off to Las Vegas and marries a cocktail waitress there? Does the new marriage covenant to the cocktail waitress invalidate the first marriage? Of course it doesn't. If a second covenant comes along and violates a first covenant, then it's the second covenant that's invalid, not the first. So, by the way you know covenants work, the only way the "new" covenant could even be valid is if it doesn't violate the first covenant.

So, does this new covenant violate the Old Covenant Law? Actually, no, it doesn't. As we've just seen, the new covenant strengthens the old covenant by putting the Law of the old covenant in your mind and on your heart so that you can keep it better than ever before. So, it's actually irrelevant, if you want to look at the covenant as being either new or renewed, because the only way it can be valid is if it supports the original covenant.
Zobel
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"In saying, 'new,' He has made obsolete the first."

Not because it was bad. Because it was filled up to overflowing and then some. Expanded from without to within, from letter to spirit. From a shadow that cannot perfect (Heb 10:1) and from the blood of bulls and goats which cannot take away sin (10:4) - "He takes away the first that He might establish the second."

And then - "Now where there is forgiveness of these, no longer is there an offering for sin." Are we supposed to believe gentiles were still being taught to offer sacrifices under the Law?
Win At Life
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The Nazarite Vow Paul completed in Acts 21 came with sacrifices in the temple, one of which was called a sin sacrifice. So, again, the apostles are acting and teaching against your doctrine.
Zobel
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I don't think you read carefully enough. St Paul is "on record" saying he endeavors to be all things to all people - "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), to win those under the law. To those without the law I became like one without the law (though I am not outside the law of God but am under the law of Christ), to win those without the law."

I never said it was a sin to offer sacrifices or even wrong. But you can't do it today. You can't even begin to follow the Law today.
Redstone
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It is beyond impossible to even LARP 1st Century Jewish faith and practice.

No Temple, no sacrifice and worship like they sacrificed and worshipped.

Have we really not thought through why exactly the Temple attracted pilgrims from all corners?
Win At Life
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Y'all are both acting like "Thou shall not murder" can't be followed today because there's not temple. Most of God's instructions for us don't require a temple. Let's keep those.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Zobel
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And you're acting as if St Paul didn't mean it when he said


"Behold, I Paul say to you that if you shall become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Now again I testify to every man receiving circumcision that he is a debtor to keep the whole Law."

Are you really suggesting that St Paul was teaching Gentile Christians to keep the whole Law? That surely seems hard to square. Trophimas was not brought into the Temple; Trophimas was not a converted Jew.

But! We should keep the Law - "the entire Law is fulfilled in in this one saying: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " Jesus Christ is the end (culmination) of the Law for those who believe.
Redstone
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Christ is the fulfillment of the law - in fact, the Law is a Person.

How, then, did He set up His church, and instruct in faith and worship?

For the Apostolic Church, in a 2,000 year old interpretation, the Last Supper was the first Mass.
Win At Life
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I'm a little confused about what point you are trying to make with Trophimus.

Are you suggesting it was in keeping with scripture that he was not brought into the temple or was that act against scripture?

Are you suggesting it was in keeping with Jewish tradition that he was not brought into the temple or was that act against Jewish tradition?

What part of the temple are you assuming this particular act (or non act) occurred? Was this in, or about, the court of the Gentiles? Was this in, or about, the inner court? Was this in, or about, the Holy of Holies?
What exactly happened here that you claim was wrong?

Perhaps a scripture reference would help.

Quote:

But! We should keep the Law - "the entire Law is fulfilled in in this one saying: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " Jesus Christ is the end (goal) of the Law for those who believe.

Quote:

"Behold, I Paul say to you that if you shall become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. Now again I testify to every man receiving circumcision that he is a debtor to keep the whole Law."
You are quoting Galatians 5:2 here. I feel we are being a bit repetitive here, but the problem being addressed in this verse is the same bad doctrine of Jewish Pharisees of the first century that we've already address and is also shown in Acts 15:1.

Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

After a long introduction where Paul states the qualifications of his background and knows about this Jewish error in doctrine, he gets to his point of the letter in 3:2:

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Just like in Acts 15:1, we see the bad doctrine that was being taught to the Galatians after Paul had left was coming from the Rabbinc Jews who believed WORKS OF THE LAW cause you to be saved.

And again in 3:11:

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith."

And AGAIN in 3:21

For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

AND AGAIN, after the very verse you quoted in 5:4:

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law;
Zobel
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If Trophimus was a Christian who was a convert to Judaism, circumcised, keeping the Law, how would he be different than a Greek speaking Jew? He wouldn't have been "a Greek" or "a Gentile" any longer. He would have been a Greek speaking Jew, and there would have been no basis for a mob riot against St Paul, that St Paul had "defiled" the Temple.

That the Pharisees could be wrong doesn't mean your interpretation is correct. Both are clear; justification is not through the Law. St Paul is utterly clear on that. But then why didn't he write - follow the Law, and be circumcised - just know that it is not what saves you? Would have been so clear. The Council of Jerusalem could have said - begin with these things, and grow in following the Law. There's plenty of opportunity to say either one. But they didn't.

You can't resurrect second Temple Judaism. The Lord made a promise to return, to right the wrongs, to bring the gospel to the afflicted, to trade garland for ashes, liberty to captives, freedom to prisoners, to rebuild ancient ruins. That He would gather up the offspring from the east, and the west, north, and south to bring sons and daughters back from the ends of the earth. And then... the the Temple is destroyed, Jerusalem sacked. There is clearly something lacking in this desire to return to what the Lord has shown to be obsolete, growing old, and ready to disappear.

Side note - why did you edit "culmination" to "goal"? Telos means "ultimate object or aim" or outcome, purpose, consummation... and culmination means "the highest or climactic point of something, especially as attained after a long time." I don't understand why the need to change it??

Win At Life
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Quote:

Side note - why did you edit "culmination" to "goal"? Telos means "ultimate object or aim" or outcome, purpose, consummation... and culmination means "the highest or climactic point of something, especially as attained after a long time." I don't understand why the need to change it??
Definition of "goal"

goal: the result or achievement toward which effort is directed; aim; end

When words don't mean what words are defined to mean, then I've gone about as far as I can with words.

Shalom
Zobel
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When you're going to argue between culmination and goal when translating telos then yeah, that'd be an impasse.
PA24
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Excellent lessons on Christ the lamb and Passover.

nortex97
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AG
This is an old thread, but bumping as it's the one I found searching for one on the forum about Passover. Cool story (caveat, NPR):

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/04/02/1167498909/for-passover-i-sent-matzo-to-the-jews-of-uganda-theyve-given-me-a-gift-as-well
Sapper Redux
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Interesting to see some push back against Christian Seders by some leaders:
https://www.diocesemo.org/blog/bishops-letter-to-the-diocese-christian-seder-meals-banned/
ramblin_ag02
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AG
He doesn't think we should have Seders, because he thinks they are offensive to Jewish people. I can only relate my experiences from Jewish people in NYC and Texas, but it was 100% positive reactions among dozens of people.

Jewish people understand that the #1 reason for antisemitism is their strangeness to non-Jews. Things like this promote understanding and reduce that sense of strangeness. When more people follow these customs it becomes more familiar to everyone in the society, and people are more accepting of Jewish people in general. I took on a lot of Jewish practices and have received nothing but encouragement from Jewish people despite making very clear that I am not Jewish.

So IMHO, the writer of this article is pushing counterproductive PC nonsense and has no idea what he's talking about. I would put the O/U at 0.5 for the number of Jewish people that actually complained to him about this, and I would bet the under
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Sapper Redux
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You may want to check with more Jewish people. Going to a Jewish Seder is one thing. A church appropriating the Jewish ritual and adding Christian symbolism to it is seen as something very different to many.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
Well my "research" so far is dozens of Jewish people ranging from 20-70s in age and ranging from non-practicing to Orthodox in observance. Care to post your own research?
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