Do y'all know

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VetSurg
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 4:13p, 11/13/19
AG
Texaggie7nine said:
VetSurg said:

John 12:48

And going to A&M is not a spiritual thing. Colossians 3:17 is talking about how we live spiritually.
You realize that there are way better interpretations of whatever it is you pull out of these scriptures. So simply posting them as if they speak for themselves does nothing but hurt your case.

At least try to make an argument that they remotely say what you think they are saying.

John 12:48 in no way speaks to doing nothing except what is expressly in scripture.

If you tell me to not get you pineapple on your pizza and I get you sausage, am I "rejecting" your words?

How is using an musical instrument in church worship "rejecting" God's word when no scripture expressly says not to, or even hints in a direction that it would be frowned upon?


Also Col 3:17 stipulates in NO fashion that "whatever you do in deed or word" means "only spiritually".
Look, I don't have time to teach you everything about biblical authority. I've wasted too much time here already.

Silence of the scriptures does not give authority.

We cannot serve pepperoni pizza and Sprite for the Lord's supper. "Why not? It doesn't say we can't!"

Anyone with even an elementary understanding of biblical authority understands direct commandments, approved example and necessary inference.

What you're attempting to say is if I ask for a pineapple pizza, you can bring it and a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and a pecan pie because I didn't say not to bring those other things.

Wrong! I only gave you authority to bring a pineapple pizza. Because I did not specify the size, crust type or price, those things are expediencies that are at your discretion. But your authorization is for pepperoni pizza only.

Please show me where mechanical instruments of music are authorized for New Testament worship?

We are authorized to use an instrument, our heart (Eph 5:19). We sing (Col. 3:16).

Show me the authority for mechanical instruments of music by direct commandment, approved example or necessary inference.

And so, Col. 3:17 and John 12:48 have everything to do with authority. We get authority from Christ (who was given all authority by the Father) by His word and we will be judged by our obedience to His word, and thus why we must do everything in His name/by His authority.

And Col. 3:17 is absolutely in reference to spiritual things. Look at the context (v. 16)
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swimmerbabe11
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4:30p, 11/13/19
There are far worse ways to spend leisure time than discussing the nuances of Scripture with the world around you. Nobody has been unkind to you, I dont think it makes sense to respond like this.


Also, pepperoni or pineapple? Those are two very different pizzas. And hell yeah if someone brings me groceries in addition to pizza.

Does anyone want to bring me pineapple-pepperoni pizza, milk, bread, AND pecan pie tonight? That sounds awesome!
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Zobel
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In reply to VetSurg • 4:30p, 11/13/19
AG

Quote:
Look, I don't have time to teach you everything about biblical authority. I've wasted too much time here already.
Careful - sounds an aw

ful lot like you want people to call you a teacher.


Quote:
Silence of the scriptures does not give authority.
Where does the scripture say that?

Quote:
We cannot serve pepperoni pizza and Sprite for the Lord's supper. "Why not? It doesn't say we can't!"
This is an error of logic. That silence is not prohibited does not mean that actual prescriptions are not authoritative. The scriptures speak of bread and wine, and so we follow them.
Quote:
What you're attempting to say is if I ask for a pineapple pizza, you can bring it and a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and a pecan pie because I didn't say not to bring those other things.
No, what we're attempting to say is that the scriptures don't say we can eat pizza, but we're still allowed to.

Quote:
Please show me where mechanical instruments of music are authorized for New Testament worship?Begs the question. OT allows it, even commands it.

"Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals."
"Praise the LORD with the harp; make music to Him with ten strings."
"With trumpets and the blast of the horn shout for joy before the LORD, the King."
"Then David spoke to the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their relatives the singers, with instruments of music, harps, lyres, loud-sounding cymbals, to raise sounds of joy."


Please find me the scripture that says the OT is invalid and not authoritative?

Quote:
Show me the authority for mechanical instruments of music by direct commandment, approved example or necessary inference.

Your assertion is that whatever is not specifically authorized is precluded. Burden of proof is on YOU to prove that. All you've done is bluster and insult people, so far. (This coming from a person who comes from a tradition of a capella worship, for what its worth).

Quote:
And so, Col. 3:17 and John 12:48 have everything to do with authority. We get authority from Christ (who was given all authority by the Father) by His word and we will be judged by our obedience to His word, and thus why we must do everything in His name/by His authority.

And Col. 3:17 is absolutely in reference to spiritual things. Look at the context (v. 16)
Look man, just because you say something doesn't mean it's true. Your interpretation is beyond strained and even causes you to pit scripture against scripture.
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aggiedad20
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4:35p, 11/13/19
Scripture is insulting? Because all Vet has done is blast it at and every single denominational adherent here has done nothing but kick and scream...it's really amusing how people fight the simplicity of Scripture. Lol

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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 4:38p, 11/13/19
aggiedad20 said:
Scripture is insulting? Because all Vet has done is blast it at and every single denominational adherent here has done nothing but kick and scream...it's really amusing how people fight the simplicity of Scripture. Lol



I commend his ability to recall and cited Scripture, but I have real questions about his exegesis.
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to VetSurg • 4:43p, 11/13/19
Quote:
Look, I don't have time to teach you everything about biblical authority. I've wasted too much time here already.
Good, I don't have time to take lessons on biblical authority from someone so void of rational behind it.

Quote:
Silence of the scriptures does not give authority.
What do the scriptures say about using microphones when preaching? Because the preachers at the CoC churches and schools I have been to all used them.

Where is the express permission in the bible for that?

Quote:
Anyone with even an elementary understanding of biblical authority understands direct commandments, approved example and necessary inference.
Anyone with even an elementary understanding of biblical authority

Quote:
And so, Col. 3:17 and John 12:48 have everything to do with authority. We get authority from Christ (who was given all authority by the Father) by His word and we will be judged by our obedience to His word, and thus why we must do everything in His name/by His authority.
And Jesus' followers do everything by his authority, according to the scriptures, when done for his purpose .

What scripture do you hold to that says "you are only permitted to act in the lords name with specific actions mentioned in the scriptures".

The scriptures say we are justified by faith, so if acting within faith, how is it not in Jesus' authority?
7nine
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VetSurg
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4:46p, 11/13/19
AG

We are not under the Old Law. It was abolished, nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14).

New Testament worship has nothing to do with the Old Testament.

We don't sacrifice animals, we don't practice polygamy, we don't stone people, we don't have a Levitical priesthood or a physical temple/tabernacle.

Our authority comes from Christ and the New Testament.

You are right about the authority for the Lord's supper. We have an approved example in the use of unleavened bread and fruit of the vine. That approved example is our authority. Even though there is no commandment against Sprite and pizza, we understand those things are not authorized.
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to VetSurg • 4:50p, 11/13/19
I agree with you about Sprite and pizza not being adequate for the Lord's Supper, but I also see that you said "fruit of the vine" not wine.. I would argue that Welch's was also not on the table there.

For you, what is happening at the Lord's Supper?
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Zobel
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In reply to VetSurg • 4:50p, 11/13/19
AG

Quote:
We are not under the Old Law. It was abolished, nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14).
I didn't say we were under the Law. Christ fulfilled the Law. But Christ also fulfilled and used the Scriptures. The Psalms are not part of the Law, and nowhere does the NT suggest that the psalms are abolished. You yourself quoted St Paul saying we should sing hymns and psalms. So how can you say that musical instruments are prohibited, when scripture commands us to worship God with instruments?
Quote:
New Testament worship has nothing to do with the Old Testament.
False! Wrong! Erroneous! Completely incorrect! There is NO SCRIPTURE that supports this view! New Testament worship is an extension and fulfillment of Old Testament worship! The Old was the type, the shadow; the New is the reality.

Quote:
Our authority comes from Christ and the New Testament.
Where does the New Testament say Christian authority comes from the New Testament?

Quote:
You are right about the authority for the Lord's supper. We have an approved example in the use of unleavened bread and fruit of the vine. That approved example is our authority. Even though there is no commandment against Sprite and pizza, we understand those things are not authorized.
Right. The prescriptions of scripture are authoritative and valid, and should be followed.

This does not in any way support the premise that the silence of scripture is prohibitive. It is a non sequitur.
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Serotonin
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In reply to VetSurg • 4:51p, 11/13/19
AG
VetSurg said:

New Testament worship has nothing to do with the Old Testament.
So Christians stopped going to the Temple for worship?
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dermdoc
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 4:54p, 11/13/19
AG
And that is blatantly false. Basically he has said I am right and y'all are wrong. I can say the same thing. Have a good night.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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VetSurg
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 5:00p, 11/13/19
AG
Texaggie7nine said:
Quote:
Look, I don't have time to teach you everything about biblical authority. I've wasted too much time here already.
Good, I don't have time to take lessons on biblical authority from someone so void of rational behind it.

Quote:
Silence of the scriptures does not give authority.
What do the scriptures say about using microphones when preaching? Because the preachers at the CoC churches and schools I have been to all used them.

Where is the express permission in the bible for that?

Quote:
Anyone with even an elementary understanding of biblical authority understands direct commandments, approved example and necessary inference.
Anyone with even an elementary understanding of biblical authority

Quote:
And so, Col. 3:17 and John 12:48 have everything to do with authority. We get authority from Christ (who was given all authority by the Father) by His word and we will be judged by our obedience to His word, and thus why we must do everything in His name/by His authority.
And Jesus' followers do everything by his authority, according to the scriptures, when done for his purpose .

What scripture do you hold to that says "you are only permitted to act in the lords name with specific actions mentioned in the scriptures".

The scriptures say we are justified by faith, so if acting within faith, how is it not in Jesus' authority?

Again, these are elementary questions of authority. We are commanded to come together for worship. There are 5 acts of worship approved for the first day of the week. Those are commandments.

A microphone is an expediency to accomplish that command. So are song books, Church building? We are commanded to assemble. The building is an expediency to be obedient to that command. Do we have to have a building? No, but we have to assemble somewhere on the first day of the week as the body of Christ.

Just to stick to your question, we are commanded to worship in spirit and truth (John 4:24). If those in the assembly cannot hear the prayer being led or the sermon preached, they cannot worship in spirit and truth. The microphone is an expediency to accomplish this.

Why have song books or a clock? I Cor. 14:40 commands, "Let all things be done decently and in order." They are expediencies to help obey that command.

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aggiedad20
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In reply to dermdoc • 5:02p, 11/13/19
Good night sleep tight
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VetSurg
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5:06p, 11/13/19
AG
The anti type is superior to the type and it would be foolish to cling to the type once the anti type has come....
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Zobel
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In reply to VetSurg • 5:10p, 11/13/19
AG
Where does scripture say you can have expediences?
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to VetSurg • 5:10p, 11/13/19
Where does it say that playing a musical instrument isn't in spirit or truth?

If you want to take Col 3:17 as only speaking of being in church or in "spirit". What do you take the word "deeds" to mean?
7nine
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aggiedad20
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 5:14p, 11/13/19
So I CAN put jelly on the communion bread? I mean the Bible doesn't say NOT to, right??

Hallelujah
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 5:17p, 11/13/19
aggiedad20 said:
So I CAN put jelly on the communion bread? I mean the Bible doesn't say NOT to, right??

Hallelujah
Can you use a circular wafer as I did in the CoC I went to? Where does it say to specifically use a circular wafer of mechanically processed bread?

If I have a severe grain allergy, will I be violating the rules of Jesus if I eat imitation bread made from cauliflower?
7nine
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Zobel
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 5:17p, 11/13/19
AG
aggiedad20 said:
So I CAN put jelly on the communion bread? I mean the Bible doesn't say NOT to, right??

Hallelujah


Same logical fallacy.

Prescriptions are authoritative.
Silence is not proscriptive. Neither is silence authoritative. At some point Christians have to have judgment and discernment about whatever is good and beneficial.
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aggiedad20
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 5:19p, 11/13/19
No circular wafers are allowed. Unless there's jelly then God allows it. Maybe lol
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to Zobel • 5:19p, 11/13/19
k2aggie07 said:
aggiedad20 said:
So I CAN put jelly on the communion bread? I mean the Bible doesn't say NOT to, right??

Hallelujah


Same logical fallacy.

Prescriptions are authoritative.
Silence is not proscriptive. Neither is silence authoritative. At some point Christians have to have judgment and discernment about whatever is good and beneficial.
If only there were scripture that said something to the effect of the law being simplified to a few basic tenets that would cover everything.
7nine
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VetSurg
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 5:23p, 11/13/19
AG
swimmerbabe11 said:
I agree with you about Sprite and pizza not being adequate for the Lord's Supper, but I also see that you said "fruit of the vine" not wine.. I would argue that Welch's was also not on the table there.

For you, what is happening at the Lord's Supper?
Matthew 26:27-29 all refer to it as."fruit of the vine," as do Mark and Luke's accounts.

Jews were forbidden to have leaven in the house during Passover (Exo. 12:19). Leaven was used to ferment wine. Because of this, I suspect they had only grape juice at the institution of the Lord's Supper.

During the Lord's Supper, I am proclaiming the death of my Savior (I Cor. 11:26), I discern the body and blood of Christ and remember His sacrifice (I Cor 11:29) and I engage in fellowship (Matt. 26:29).
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swimmerbabe11
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In reply to VetSurg • 5:28p, 11/13/19
That is easily the best argument for grape juice that I have ever heard. Thank you for answering. I dont know enough about winemaking of that era to have a good response. I am headed off to do some research and get back to you. I've heard similar arguments about why we use the wafers instead of the regular bread loaves... never considered that part to be something I would personally quibble over, but wine vs grape juice seems to be more of an important distinction.
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Zobel
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5:38p, 11/13/19
AG
Fun fact: some ancient Christian traditions use I fermented grape juice. Some very old Indian Christian traditions use raisins soaked in water overnight. However, wine seems to be the earliest tradition in most of Christendom.
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Zobel
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6:16p, 11/13/19
AG
This question of the name of Jesus touches everything that is done by the church in a much deeper way than authority. Every spiritual gift that is given is a participation in Christ. He is the one sent (Apostle), the messenger (angel), the Bishop, the slave, the pastor and shepherd, the priest, the teacher, the prophet. When we as fellow slaves of Christ participate in the life in Christ it is not we who act but Christ in us. When a teacher teaches, it is Christ teaching, when a priest Offers the Eucharist it is Christ offering (and receiving and the offering itself!), when a deacon serves it is Christ serving - -if it is done in the name of the lord. This is not a question of what we're allowed to do, what we have permission to do, but taking up the grace offered us to participate in Him, who is the only one who is all these things by who and what He is.

This is what do all in the name of the lord is, this is God's will done on earth as it is in heaven, this is how we are the members of the body with our roles and functions, this is offering ourselves as living sacrifices which is the worship proper to rational beings. This is what it means to live is Christ.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to VetSurg • 8:49p, 11/13/19
AG
Quote:
Jews were forbidden to have leaven in the house during Passover (Exo. 12:19). Leaven was used to ferment wine. Because of this, I suspect they had only grape juice at the institution of the Lord's Supper.
That's not how leaven or wine fermentation works. Yeast causes wine to ferment. Yeast is naturally present on the surface of grapes. You don't have to add anything to grape juice to make wine. You just crush the grape. This lets the yeast on the outside eat the sugars on the inside. This produces alcohol. If you put natural grape juice in any container, then it will turn into wine. The only way to stop this is to sterilize the grapes before crushing them, and there is no record of any such process in the time of Jesus. It would have literally been impossible for Jesus to have grape juice at the Last Supper unless he made it miraculously, and there is no mention of that in Scripture.

Onto the leaven. Many things are considered leaven today, but in the times of the Bible leaven only mean two things. If you leave wet dough open to the air, then the natural yeast in the air will settle on it. This yeast will start breaking down the dough and "souring" it. Once it sours enough, you can break off a small amount and add it to regular dough. If you cook that dough, then the bread will rise due to the yeast producing carbon dioxide from breaking down the dough. The ball of soured dough is leaven, and the bread made with it is leavened bread. Both of these are forbidden on Passover. They must be removed from the home and cannot be eaten.

Yeast is not leaven. Yeast exists in the natural air. It cannot be removed from the home any more than bacteria or pollen can be removed from the home. Also, the idea that microscopic yeast is responsible for the rising of bread wasn't known until 1859. In fact the initial German laws governing beer production allowed only water, barley and hops. They later had to amend it when yeast was found the be fairly important to the process of making beer. It is anachronistic to project this knowledge of fermentation back on Biblical people and Biblical texts.

Finally, we have written evidence. The oldest accounts of Passover suppers (not counting the NT) are found in the Mishnah. The Mishnah was written in 200 AD, but it collects the cultural norms of Judaism dating back centuries earlier. According to the Mishnah, every Jewish household had fermented wine during the Passover meal. The written versions of oral Jewish law like the Mishnah and Talmud are great in that they list differences of opinion. IE, the most common observance is listed, but then they may quote an expert giving a different interpretation. There are no different interpretations of the Mishnah's handling of the Passover meal. So it's safe to say that every Jewish household was using fermented wine during the Passover meal, and no one was questioning or challenging that practice.

To sum, the idea that the Last Supper used unfermented grape juice is ridiculous from the perspective of biochemistry, history, Jewish law, and contemporary Jewish practice.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Captain Pablo
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In reply to dermdoc • 9:51p, 11/13/19
AG
I didn't read this thread, but how anyone could live in Port Acres and claim to be chosen completely defies logic and common sense

If there's a forsaken place, it's Port Acres ...
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aggiedad20
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 6:26a, 11/14/19
"the idea that the Last Supper used unfermented grape juice is ridiculous from the perspective of biochemistry, history, Jewish law, and contemporary Jewish practice."

There is also evidence that grape juice was preserved, unfermented, for up to a year. But even if this wasn't possible the levels of fermentation is much less than what modern wine is today. Also, would it be possible for fermented grape juice to have been boiled bc alcohol evaporates at 173F. I'm pretty sure fire and pots were a thing back in the day. And lastly, the wine in Biblical times was very very weak and there's evidence it was even mixed with water to further dilute it.

For you to call it ridiculous is somewhat dishonest on your part bc the truth is we just don't know. Was it unfermented fruit of the vine? Maybe. Was it wine? Maybe but definitely very weak as far as alcohol content.

Edit to say since there is evidence that both could've been used at the Last Supper why would we insist today on using wine for communion when everyone know that alcohol is and always will be a stumbling block for so many people. Just my thoughts
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Zobel
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7:17a, 11/14/19
AG
Why do you say definitely weak? There was strong wine in antiquity. There's plenty of historical witnesses to this. That's part of the reason "polite" people watered wine down.

You may be able to cast doubt and say - we don't know. But you can't at the same time assert it was "definitely" weak. There's no evidence for that claim. Can't have it both ways.
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aggiedad20
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In reply to Zobel • 7:35a, 11/14/19
Definitely weaker than modern wine Einstein. Today's wine has alcohol added and wine is 12-20% alcohol. I doubt any ancient wines had more than 10% bc it is directly correlated to the sugar content of the grapes. Why do you insist on twisting everything? Everyone knows you're never wrong, we get it. But carry on lol

Fermenting and preserving grape juice were both done and they actually took about the same amount of effort so I would assume both would be readily available in ancient days.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:58a, 11/14/19
AG
aggiedad20 said:
Definitely weaker than modern wine Einstein. Today's wine has alcohol added and wine is 12-20% alcohol. I doubt any ancient wines had more than 10% bc it is directly correlated to the sugar content of the grapes. Why do you insist on twisting everything? Everyone knows you're never wrong, we get it. But carry on lol

Fermenting and preserving grape juice were both done and they actually took about the same amount of effort so I would assume both would be readily available in ancient days.

Why are your posts almost always filled with hostility and arrogance? K2 asked valid questions. Your talk about "stumbling blocks" also rings hollow when you follow with such a tone, which could be a "stumbling block" to those easily drawn into such unnecessary hostility.
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Zobel
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 7:59a, 11/14/19
AG
Why do you think they add alcohol to modern wine?

Greek and Roman wines were strong. Some as strong as 16%, like Falernian. This is why it was considered barbaric to not water down your wine. Some articles for you to read, if you care to learn more.

" Falernian was full-bodied (firmissima), with an alcohol content as much as fifteen or sixteen percent (at which point the yeast is killed by the alcohol it produces). A white wine, it was aged for ten to twenty years, until it was the color of amber (Pliny, XXXVII.12). "

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/wine.html

https://www.wineinvestment.com/wine-blog/2015/11/wine-throughout-history-what-were-ancient-wines-really-like/

http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2004/10/wine-and-water.html?m=1

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aggiedad20
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In reply to Zobel • 8:02a, 11/14/19
Otay I'll get educated

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aggiedad20
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In reply to PacifistAg • 8:05a, 11/14/19
Sorry if you're offended but I detest denominational false doctrines and practices.
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Zobel
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In reply to aggiedad20 • 8:09a, 11/14/19
AG
Don't feel bad. There are two reasons I know this random trivia about ancient wines. One, one of my very dear friends from childhood is a classics professor and we chat about things like this from times to time. And two, I have had this discussion several times - the first time I was laboring under the same misconceptions you carry now.
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