First of all, I will state up front that I am Catholic, so that is the perspective I bring to this issue.

Secondly, I would like to ask that, if at all possible, people please refrain from posts about priests and child molesters, "***** of Babylon" and other inflammatory, non-relevant posts.

A survey taken by Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) was published yesterday that showed the following:

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54 percent of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 40 percent believe it should be illegal in most or all cases. "These numbers are essentially unchanged since 2014," the survey said; then 55 percent of Americans said abortion should be legal in all or most cases, and 41 percent said it should be illegal in most or all cases.

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The study then noted that while the numbers overall have not really changed, there were significant moves within different demographic groups.

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Catholics "mirror the rest of the country pretty closely, particularly white Catholics," she added. Fifty-three percent of white Catholics believe most or all abortions should be legal compared to 40 percent who say most or all should be illegal, Jackson noted, "so they're right in line" with the majority of Americans.

Other nonwhite Catholics support abortion's legality by a 55 percent to 37 percent margin, approximating the views of their white co-religionists. But a majority of Hispanics, 52 percent, believe abortion should be illegal in most or all instances, while 41 percent hold the opposite view.

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That is staggering to me. I knew there was a significant percentage of American Catholics that would support abortion because of the politics that surrounds the issue, but I am shocked and saddened to find it is a majority.

So my question is how is it that over half of the the adherents of a religion that teaches that all abortion is wrong, don't agree with the Church on this fairly basic issue.

This isn't some esoteric religious debate akin to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. This is a fundamental question that goes to the root of morality that forms the basis of the religion.

What has gone wrong in Catholic catechesis, or teaching or preaching that has allowed this to happen, and what can be done to reverse it and at least get the number back under 50%?

Edit to add a link to the survey findings:
Opinion on abortion's legality unchanged; some shifting within groups

Link to the survey itself:
The State of Abortion and Contraception Attitudes in All 50 States

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.

It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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I don't know that I buy this explanation, because if you really think abortion is murder then the beliefs of the murderers really aren't relevant. However, I do think that banning abortions presents major issues in regards to enforcing that ban. Just see the reaction to Trump's campaign comments about prosecuting women who've had abortions.

Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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I think you're speaking as someone that recognizes the individual as the most important unit of society whose rights must not be infringed upon, as are a majority of the respondents.

I'm not so sure that's a Christian teaching which is what leads to these results.

Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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How is abortion a religious belief?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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How is abortion a religious belief?

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the idea that abortion is morally wrong is a religious belief in the case of catholics.

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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How is abortion a religious belief?

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the idea that abortion is morally wrong is a religious belief in the case of catholics.

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So if I'm not catholic, I'm free to force it on the rest of the population?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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How is abortion a religious belief?

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the idea that abortion is morally wrong is a religious belief in the case of catholics.

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So if I'm not catholic, I'm free to force it on the rest of the population?

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I think this thread is about catholics

Again I hear this, but don't buy it. Let's give a counter example. Let's say a religion allows male family members to kill female relatives who have premarital sex. In this religion the killing is justice and might even be mandated. In our religion and culture at large, this is murder. No one among us is going to have any qualms whatsoever about making this illegal even if it "imposes" our beliefs on someone else. I've never heard a single person say, "well I consider that murder but I don't want to force my beliefs on them, so I think it should still be legal to kill young women who have premarital sex"

ramblin_ag02 said:

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Again I hear this, but don't buy it. Let's give a counter example. Let's say a religion allows male family members to kill female relatives who have premarital sex. In this religion the killing is justice and might even be mandated. In our religion and culture at large, this is murder. No one among us is going to have any qualms whatsoever about making this illegal even if it "imposes" our beliefs on someone else. I've never heard a single person say, "well I consider that murder but I don't want to force my beliefs on them, so I think it should still be legal to kill young women who have premarital sex"

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I think most people, even pro-life people, don't really think abortion is murder.

You're probably right

Martin Q. Blank said:

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schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Again I hear this, but don't buy it. Let's give a counter example. Let's say a religion allows male family members to kill female relatives who have premarital sex. In this religion the killing is justice and might even be mandated. In our religion and culture at large, this is murder. No one among us is going to have any qualms whatsoever about making this illegal even if it "imposes" our beliefs on someone else. I've never heard a single person say, "well I consider that murder but I don't want to force my beliefs on them, so I think it should still be legal to kill young women who have premarital sex"

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I think most people, even pro-life people, don't really think abortion is murder.

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If I kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and kill her baby, it's murder. Why would it be different for a woman who chooses to do this to herself?

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if a woman has a miscarriage, should there be a police investigation to determine if she should stand trial for murder?

Abortion is more about the belief in a life giving God than anything else in my experience.

Most of the people having abortions, I have observed, feel like they have no other choice.

The many folks who call themselves Catholic, have been poorly catechized. So for many, they have not made the connection that God gives life - NOT to put people down- but rather - to lift them up. There is no other view.

+Pablo

XUSCR said:

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schmendeler said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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Again I hear this, but don't buy it. Let's give a counter example. Let's say a religion allows male family members to kill female relatives who have premarital sex. In this religion the killing is justice and might even be mandated. In our religion and culture at large, this is murder. No one among us is going to have any qualms whatsoever about making this illegal even if it "imposes" our beliefs on someone else. I've never heard a single person say, "well I consider that murder but I don't want to force my beliefs on them, so I think it should still be legal to kill young women who have premarital sex"

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I think most people, even pro-life people, don't really think abortion is murder.

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The catechism of the Catholic Church specifically teaches that abortion is murder.

The results of this poll are another data point evidencing the tragic impact of V2 on the laity in terms of their understanding and appreciation of the teachings of the RCC. When almost 2/3 of Catholics don't think the consecrated bread and wine is the Real Presence, is it any surprise that they support legal abortion as described in the poll?

The forces of evil have been very successful so far in their infiltration of the RCC and this is another data point that demonstrates this tragedy.

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maybe people find value in the church, but on these issues, they don't find the teachings to be compelling.

Murder - no. For it would imply full knowledge and malicious intent. Most people having abortions do so as a last ditch effort of family planning. Like they didn't plan and now they HAVE to do something. So I have head that be the reason more than anyother. They simply can't afford another kid or are not ready.

What is not considered is that this life may be exactly what they need and that God will provide.

It's tough- but abortion is plain and simple the wrong answer. We can do better!

My brother- the Cathechism does not teach that it is murder. It is a "grave evil" no doubt.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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I believe this is because in the interest of "Pastoralism", most Priests refuse to talk about abortion at all.

The laity is not properly catechized. It has become a controversial enough issue that most Priests seem content to let the culture lead rather than trying to lead (or fight) the prevailing cultural attitudes.

I would be interested in seeing how these numbers change when comparing those who attend Mass multiple times / week versus those who don't; also, those who attend Latin Masses versus Novus Ordo.

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So in October 2016, our pastor was out for the weekend and the 80+ year old retired Monsignor who lives in our parish said masses. He got up and LAMBASTED any Catholics who would vote for Hillary Clinton and pretty much said they would be in dire need of the confessional if voting for her because she was pro abortion.

It was so over the top I was thinking maybe it was a prank but he meant all of it. When he finished, half the church jumped to their feet and gave him a standing ovation.

PabloSerna said:

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My brother- the Cathechism does not teach that it is murder. It is a "grave evil" no doubt.

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My brother, respectfully, I disagree. One need not be a lawyer or a logician to read the following and arrive at the conclusion that the CCC teaches that abortion is murder or the equivalent of murder, which is murder said another way. I am very comfortable saying that abortion is murder and I am very comfortable standing up in a Catholic Church, even one of the aesthetic monstrosities built in the 70s or 80s, and saying without hesitation, "The Church that you profess to be part of when you stand and recite the Nicene Creed magisterially teaches that intentional abortion is murder."


2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill,"62 and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies.63 He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.64

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

St Basil the great Women also who administer drugs to cause abortion, as well as those who take poisons to destroy unborn children, are murderesses.

I'm quite familiar with the CCC. It is not murder. As stated, grave and moral evil. Ask a canon lawyer. It has been answered before. Peace!

+Pablo

EDIT to add:
"Abortion is "the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth" (The Gospel of Life, no.58)."

EDIT to add: As stated above in 2272 ... "a grave offense". The distinction being made here is in the intent. While it may be true that some people abort innocent children as part of an evil intent to worship Satan- Most people's intent is family planning.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, argued against the Immacualte Conception.

Umm, Judas? Yeah- hand picked by Jesus himself.

This is why we have a Cathechism and a Magisterium. Thank God!!

schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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How is abortion a religious belief?

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the idea that abortion is morally wrong is a religious belief in the case of catholics.

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I think abortion is morally wrong even if you are an atheist.

dermdoc said:

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schmendeler said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quad Dog said:

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The question in the survey was about abortion's legality, not whether or not it is wrong. Those are two different things.
It's one thing to have a religious belief, it is a different thing to force that belief on the rest of the population.

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How is abortion a religious belief?

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the idea that abortion is morally wrong is a religious belief in the case of catholics.

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I think abortion is morally wrong even if you are an atheist.

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there are definitely those that would agree.

It might be a slim point to make to some on here (and also hard to get a consensus from atheists) but I think most atheists would agree that abortion is murder after a certain point during gestation. Catholics and others would argue that point is conception, in 1973 the Supreme Court put that point at ~28 weeks, I'm guessing most atheists would put the point at third trimester. There will always be extremes on both sides.

PabloSerna said:

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I'm quite familiar with the CCC. It is not murder. As stated, grave and moral evil. Ask a canon lawyer. It has been answered before. Peace!

+Pablo

EDIT to add:
"Abortion is "the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth" (The Gospel of Life, no.58)."

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Finding a substantial difference between the premeditated killing of an innocent and murder is an exercise in picking gnat sh/t out of pepper.

The Catechism says the following regarding murder:

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Intentional homicide
2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.69

Infanticide,70 fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break. Concern for eugenics or public health cannot justify any murder, even if commanded by public authority.

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PabloSerna said:

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I'm quite familiar with the CCC. It is not murder. As stated, grave and moral evil. Ask a canon lawyer. It has been answered before. Peace!

+Pablo

EDIT to add:
"Abortion is "the deliberate and direct killing, by whatever means it is carried out, of a human being in the initial phase of his or her existence, extending from conception to birth" (The Gospel of Life, no.58)."

EDIT to add: As stated above in 2272 ... "a grave offense". The distinction being made here is in the intent. While it may be true that some people abort innocent children as part of an evil intent to worship Satan- Most people's intent is family planning.

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I too understand the mens rea or intent element that is at the core of this question. But to suggest that an otherwise mentally sound woman who voluntarily enters an abortion clinic to have the unborn human in her womb INTENTIONALLY torn to pieces and vacuumed from her womb by an INTENTIONALLY CHOSEN AND COMPENSATED AGENT aka the physician performing the "procedure", is not guilty of murder is to engage in the very sort of sophistry that has resulted in 54% of Catholics thinking such an abomination should be legal.

Basically my thought is never trust a "Catholic" above the Mason-Dixon line- they're democrats/liberals only

It would seem like we are arguing a fine point, however, I think it is precisely this point that can cause irreparable harm to someone who choose abortion without full knowledge of the church's teaching and ended the life of their child because they felt like they could not provide a good home.

Well meaning Christians judge them "murder" and then the Devil goes to work on their heart.

The truth is more like the lost sheep. We, like Jesus, should seek them out without judging and offer hope. Hope that begins with reconciliation and rooted in mercy.

+Pablo

Like my United Methodist Church the Catholic Church has a clergy problem...They will not directly address difficult subjects...just pretend they're not there...