The Catholic Church and Abortion - What is Going On?

5,385 Views | 88 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by FTACo88-FDT24dad
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
PabloSerna said:

XUSCR said:

@pablo

"Not on the level of murder, but a grave and moral evil."

Perhaps a good place to start would be to define what you mean by murder?



It would be no different than the CCC ... here is a quick copy and paste:

2259 In the account of Abel's murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand."58

The point to be made and indeed the crux of my argument is the malice involved in the choice. So here I go again, putting my cards on table. I told you before I am a Lay Preacher (Dominican).. I preach at abortion facilities. Here is what I do specifically, because it has not changed since 1996.

I try to arrive early - between 7-8am. They will escort most folks in by then and you won't see them for a few hours. Most of the girls have been advised to wear lose fitting clothes. Most wear warm ups.

1. I park 2-3 blocks away. Why? Because I may be arrested. Or worse beaten.
2. On the walk in (I used to preach at the facility on Grover Lane, more recently the facility on IH-35) I recite the rosary and then the Apostle's Creed as I walk up to the entry.
3. Once I get to my spot, I kneel and begin to read out loud from several parts of the bible. Notably, I read the entire part of the Jubilee message. Then I read the entire part of the Parable of the Prodigal Son.
4. From this point, it is a repetitive message about the love and mercy of God. This is what he wants me to preach. So I preach it..
5. I will repeat steps 3-4 several times.
6. I don't ever stand up until I'm ready to leave.

** I have not been there this past year, just a little worn out from the evil that envelops the place - But I will go there from time to time. I used to be there every Saturday for years. I was fortunate to meet other Pro-Lifers from different denominations. We had a very ecumenical spirit about us and would sometime share doughnuts and coffee after prayer.

A couple of observations in the many years I have done this:
#1 And this was for me a real eye opener - I have yet to see a bumper sticker favoring abortion or Pro Choice on any vehicle arriving for the abortion. Never. And I look. That is why I say they really do not know what they are doing. They are more concerned about their circumstances (school, poverty, baby daddy issues).

#2 The escorts (Pro Abortion volunteers) are mostly young, angry women. They are seething at times. I have been engaged on occasion, but only to yelled at because I am a man. Never mind that I was once walking my then girlfriend into Planned Parenthood in Bryan TX.. thankfully she said no and that I could "do whatever - I'm having this baby." I was a coward.

#3 The evil is palatable. I don't mean you can taste it - but it is heavy. It wore on me and in the past few years I have not been as active. I have volunteered for the 40 Days for Life and stood at the other facility on Ben White holding a sign. Just not the same.

So - I felt called to preach. And the best preaching is from experience. Personal experience. I am not going to make this about me. But if someone has done the same or know someone who chose abortion - tell them how much God loves them and wants to rebuild them in his love and mercy. Wants to restore their innocence. Wants to forgive them and let them know that the child is in heaven - with him. You can spiritually baptize them, I often do, and let the people know that only God can fix this. The feeling that the devil will exploit to drive a guilt wedge between the sinner and God. Calling someone a murderer is not what God has ever asked me to do. Ever.

+Pablo

Pablo, I am humbled and proud to call you a Catholic brother. You are walking the walk, not just talking the talk (which is mainly what I do).

Your reminder of mercy is entirely correct and entirely appropriate. I would always want to bring God's mercy to a woman who is considering an abortion or has had one. I suppose I would consider it merciful to tell them that the thing in their womb is a human being and killing it will not only be horribly awful for the unborn child, but also for her.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
k2aggie07 said:

What could be more malicious than an abortion? I mean honestly?
This is exactly what I am struggling with as it relates to pablo's position. It is hard to imagine that a woman doesn't have a full appreciation for what happens in an abortion, but I admit that I can imagine situations where she might not have such appreciation for various reasons.

We really are talking about the fine distinction between malice, recklessness, ignorance and no or diminished capacity..
Mark Fairchild
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
And I believe you to be incorrect.
Gig'em, Ole Army Class of '70
schmendeler
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Do you think miscarriages should initiate a police inquiry?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
k2aggie07 said:

Sorry my friend that was actually intended for Pablo. I don't understand the desire to downgrade it. Is that mercy? To tell people "oh what you did is grave but not as grave as murder"? I think not.
No worries. I thought that was the case. My mind on this is very much where your is, but I also think there is room for the mercy angle that Pablo is bringing to the discussion. I am inclined to be a little more binary because I think that is actually a more merciful approach when dealing with abortion to the extent it helps a woman to have more information before she makes a terrible choice, but I definitely see where in a real moment with real humans in difficult situations mercy is called for; speaking truth with love, as you said above.

It's the moral hazard of cracking the door open just a little bit that causes me to be more binary when it comes to catechizing the laity about this issue..
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I don't think truth and mercy are opposed here, or ever really. The way you express that truth is where love and gentleness are required, but they don't change the truth.

So I think there are two different conversations here - what is the truth of the matter, and how do we witness that truth in love for each other? The first informs the second, the second can't impinge on the first.
pagerman @ work
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

So - I felt called to preach. And the best preaching is from experience. Personal experience. I am not going to make this about me. But if someone has done the same or know someone who chose abortion - tell them how much God loves them and wants to rebuild them in his love and mercy. Wants to restore their innocence. Wants to forgive them and let them know that the child is in heaven - with him. You can spiritually baptize them, I often do, and let the people know that only God can fix this. The feeling that the devil will exploit to drive a guilt wedge between the sinner and God. Calling someone a murderer is not what God has ever asked me to do. Ever.
I don't disagree with what you are saying vis-a-vis treatment of women who have had an abortion. I have no doubt that many (particularly the younger women/girls) are confused, scared and hurting.

That said, there are some sobering statistics regarding abortion:

Quote:


Fifty-nine percent (59%) of abortions in 2014 were obtained by patients who had had at least one birth.
Almost 60% of abortions performed are to women that have already had a child, which I find amazing. I cannot imagine having had a child and still being willing to have an abortion.

My takeaway here is that in close to 2/3 of abortions you are not talking about the stereotypical scared 16 year old girl.
Quote:

Women with one or more previous induced abortions accounted for 43.6% of abortions
That is over 6.3 million abortions in one year to women that have already had one. While I still would not charge women that have an abortion with murder and again, they should be treated with love and not ostracized, again the stereotype of scared adolescent does not apply in at least 44% of abortions.


Quote:

Fifty-one percent of abortion patients in 2014 were using a contraceptive method in the month they became pregnant, most commonly condoms (24%) or a hormonal method (13%)

This possibly accounts for the high number of repeat customers for abortions. A staggering 49% of people getting abortions were not using any kind of birth control. I would love to know the numbers for the intersection of those not using birth control and having had previous abortions.

Quote:

The reasons patients gave for having an abortion underscored their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. The three most common reasonseach cited by three-fourths of patientswere concern for or responsibility to other individuals; the inability to afford raising a child; and the belief that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents. Half said they did not want to be a single parent or were having problems with their husband or partner.
This to me shows the church's (and I mean all denominations that oppose abortion, but particularly the Catholic Church) greatest failing. There is no notion being given apparently to adoption. There are parents lined up for infants in copious numbers and many if not all of these children could be found homes with loving parents.

Somehow the societal standard has become a light switch decision between keeping and raising a child yourself or killing it. To me adoption goes hand in hand with the loving caring treatment of women facing unwanted pregnancy and perfectly illustrates God's love. The woman/girl that feels incapable or unwilling to raise a child provides the unselfish act of providing life to her child and further providing a loving home for her child and giving a couple the gift of a child that they want but could not make happen on their own, plus she then can go on with her life unencumbered by the requirements of raising a child.

Finally there is this sad statistic:
Quote:

Seventeen percent of abortion patients in 2014 identified as mainline Protestant, 13% as evangelical Protestant and 24% as Catholic; 38% reported no religious affiliation and the remaining 8% reported some other affiliation
Fully 54% of abortions in 2014 (7.8 million) were procured by women that claim some form of Christianity as their religion, and 44% of that number were Catholic (3.5 million abortions). While I realize there are many who claim to be Christian that do not in practice walk the talk, that is still an amazing number.

My point here is that there is no justifiable reason to make abortion illegal if it is not murder. What we call women that have abortions is somewhat of a semantic discussion as it involves the confluence of the legal and religious.

Legally I would not make the woman having an abortion criminally liable for the death of the child, barring some extenuating circumstances such as repeatedly getting abortions or something like that, but even in those cases I'm not sure. The doctors/midwifes/what have yous that performed the procedures after abortions are made illegal should, however, face criminal charges. They are not potentially facing emotional turmoil as a result of anther person's pregnancy. They are premeditatedly setting up and facilitating the murder of 3rd party children. I have no qualms about throwing the book at them.

Societally I would in no way stigmatize the pregnant woman that wants to not have a baby. The church (meaning both the infrastructure and the laity) must approach these women with Christ's love and understanding, as we are called to do always with everyone. There is not way to encourage women to either keep or place their baby for adoption without doing this. This has to include care both before and after the woman/girl makes her decision (and I also think the Church drops the ball somewhat after this point).

I realize that Catholics and Protestants have (for whatever reasons) much that divides us, but it would seem to me that increasing the number of adoptions vs. abortions would be something that could be agreed and worked on by all Christians. Maybe I'm wrong. I like to think I'm not.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Great post. And this is why I always get ticked at folks who say the problem is we need more "sex education". If you have been pregnant and either delivered or had an abortion you know how and why you got pregnant.

And as a Protestant, I have always admired the Catholic/Orthodox Church unwavering commitment to the sanctity of life. Yet something has gone wrong. How can pro abortion people like Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, etc. still receive Communion and not be excommunicated from the Church?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Serotonin
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
dermdoc said:

Yet something has gone wrong. How can pro abortion people like Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, etc. still receive Communion and not be excommunicated from the Church?
Great question.
Zobel
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Good post, sobering information.
chimpanzee
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Lord, have mercy on us.

As a philosophical matter, we see in this issue how morality has to inform civil law, but it often will not do so in any way that Christians might be able to justify theologically at any given point in time.

Also, this among many issues shows how Catholic doctrine is not believed and/or understood by those exposed to it. I can't see personally how secular materialism gets as much traction as it does as a compelling course for people's lives, but here we are among "Catholics" following another god.

People don't need much of an excuse to deny moral authority, and Rome has offered up plenty as an earthly institution. The Vatican needs to press its case as something more than that; if it can't convince more people that the OHCAAC is the way to go, we're in for more of this and worse.



88Warrior
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dermdoc said:

Great post. And this is why I always get ticked at folks who say the problem is we need more "sex education". If you have been pregnant and either delivered or had an abortion you know how and why you got pregnant.

And as a Protestant, I have always admired the Catholic/Orthodox Church unwavering commitment to the sanctity of life. Yet something has gone wrong. How can pro abortion people like Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, etc. still receive Communion and not be excommunicated from the Church?


I said it earlier and I'll say it again the RCC and the mainline Protestant denominations all have clergy problems. It's nearly brought down my church (UMC) until this past conference when the laity (thanks in large part to the conservative African members) finally said enough...I'm sure a conversation where a priest would deny them (pro abortion Catholics) communion would be a "difficult" conversation but isn't that what has to happen? And if not shouldn't the laity call out the clergy? I believe it does...
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
88Warrior said:

dermdoc said:

Great post. And this is why I always get ticked at folks who say the problem is we need more "sex education". If you have been pregnant and either delivered or had an abortion you know how and why you got pregnant.

And as a Protestant, I have always admired the Catholic/Orthodox Church unwavering commitment to the sanctity of life. Yet something has gone wrong. How can pro abortion people like Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, etc. still receive Communion and not be excommunicated from the Church?


I said it earlier and I'll say it again the RCC and the mainline Protestant denominations all have clergy problems. It's nearly brought down my church (UMC) until this past conference when the laity (thanks in large part to the conservative African members) finally said enough...I'm sure a conversation where a priest would deny them (pro abortion Catholics) communion would be a "difficult" conversation but isn't that what has to happen? And if not shouldn't the laity call out the clergy? I believe it does...
If you do not follow your tenets, then you are not a church but merely a social club.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
88Warrior
How long do you want to ignore this user?
You would be correct sir...
pagerman @ work
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
dermdoc said:

Great post. And this is why I always get ticked at folks who say the problem is we need more "sex education". If you have been pregnant and either delivered or had an abortion you know how and why you got pregnant.

And as a Protestant, I have always admired the Catholic/Orthodox Church unwavering commitment to the sanctity of life. Yet something has gone wrong. How can pro abortion people like Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, etc. still receive Communion and not be excommunicated from the Church?
As Gator points out, this is a good question.

The Catholic Church, while appearing very centralized, is in fact fairly decentralized. Obviously the major doctrinal decisions regarding the faith are handled by Rome, but the sort of day-to-day activities are handled by the bishops largely, and without much input from Rome unless things get really off the rails. And there really is no hierarchy among the bishops (i.e. Bishop A being able to tell Bishop B what to do).

As a result, it is up to the local bishops as to how they want to treat those politicians that support abortion and subsequently present themselves for communion, and generally the bishops don't want the headache. Sometimes they deal with the issue privately with the person in question. Generally I don't know that it matters much as I honestly don't know how often someone like Pelosi actually presents themselves for communion.

That said, some bishops have taken a stand:
Quote:

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. Illinois House Speaker Mike Madigan and state Senate President John Cullerton have been barred from receiving Holy Communion at Catholic churches in the Diocese of Springfield.

Bishop Thomas Paprocki issued the ban in response to The Reproductive Health Act, a sweeping abortion rights bill that repeals decades-old restrictions on abortions in Illinois. The bill, which is awaiting Gov. JB Pritzker's signature, also removes waiting periods, spousal consent and criminal penalties for doctors who perform abortions.

Paprocki said lawmakers who voted for the bill are promoting a position that is "inconsistent with being a good Catholic, a faithful Catholic."

Madigan, Cullerton and many rank-and-file politicians are affected by the ban. Paprocki said there is a Catholic rule that states if someone has committed a private sin, he or she should not receive communion.

Madigan said he was warned about the ban before he voted. He called the bill "a recognition that women across Illinois deserve access to health care without intrusion from government."

The bishop said his decision was meant to protect the integrity of the church.

"This is not intended to be punitive," Paprocki said. "I'm not interested in punishing people. I'm interested in their change of heart, and I would love for them to see and recognize that what they did was wrong."

Bishop: No communion for Catholic lawmakers who backed Illinois abortion rights bill
Other Bishops have not:
Quote:

NEW YORK (CNS) -- Since Gov. Andrew Cuomo signed New York's new expansive abortion measure into law Jan. 22, the anniversary of Roe v. Wade, some Catholics have called for the governor, who is Catholic, to be excommunicated.

Cuomo fully backed the Reproductive Health Act as it made its way through the Legislature. It expands access to abortion, allows late-term abortions and lets nondoctors perform abortions.

A statement issued by a spokesperson for New York Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan said in general that "excommunication should not be used as a weapon," and that too often those who call for someone's excommunication "do so out of anger or frustration."

"Notable canon lawyers have said that, under canon law, excommunication is not an appropriate response to a politician who supports or votes for legislation advancing abortion," said the statement, which laid out "general principles" and did not address any specific individual.

"From a pastoral perspective, if a pastor -- and a bishop is certainly a pastor of a diocese -- knows of a grave situation involving a parishioner, it is his duty to address that issue personally and directly with the parishioner," it said, adding that this is the approach of Cardinal Dolan as it was of his predecessors as New York's archbishop, the late Cardinal John J. O'Connor and the late Cardinal Edward M. Egan.

Cardinal Dolan rejects call for Gov. Cuomo's excommunication over new abortion law
These are basically the same law in both states and the two Bishops in question (one a Cardinal) handled the situation completely differently.

It is extremely annoying to many (most ?) faithful Catholics to see these politicians both claim their Catholic faith and also support unfettered abortion.

In his "state of the state" address, Cuomo called for a state constitutional amendment that codified Roe v. Wade into state law and the passage of the "Reproductive Health Act" (the law discussed above that allows for abortions up to the moment of birth) while simultaneously citing his being a "Roman Catholic and "former altar boy" and calling for New York to "stand with Pope Francis and we pass the Child Victims Act". That takes some serious balls.

The official position of the Church is as follows:
Quote:

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
Note that does not call for excommunication of politicians, merely the person that procures an abortion.

Politicians fall under Canon 915:
Quote:

A memorandum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on "Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion", signed by its Prefect Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (i.e. Pope Benedict XVI) and published in July 2004, declared that, if a Catholic politician's formal cooperation in "the grave sin of abortion or euthanasia" becomes manifest by "consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws", the politician's pastor is obliged to instruct the politician about the Church's teaching and inform him that he should not present himself for Holy Communion as long as the objective situation of sin (regardless of whether subjective guilt exists or is absent) persists, warning him that, if he does present himself in those circumstances, he will be refused. As in the case of divorced and remarried Catholics, if these precautionary measures fail to obtain the desired effect or are impossible, "and the person in question, with obstinate persistence, still presents himself to receive the Holy Eucharist, 'the minister of Holy Communion must refuse to distribute it'".[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_915#cite_note-20][20][/url]
Pope Francis even backed up this statement:
Quote:

Pope Francis reaffirmed the Catholic doctrine that politicians who encourage legal abortion and euthanasia shouldn't take communion, in the Aparecida Document, in March 2013: "We hope that legislators [and] heads of government... will defend and protect [the dignity of human life] from the abominable crimes of abortion and euthanasia; that is their responsibility... We must adhere to "eucharistic coherence", that is, be conscious that they cannot receive Holy Communion and at the same time act with deeds or words against the commandments, particularly when abortion, euthanasia, and other grave crimes against life and family are encouraged. This responsibility weighs particularly over legislators, heads of governments, and health professionals
But yeah, let's stand with Pope Francis.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
dermdoc
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Why do I cynically think that big money pro abortion NY Catholics are the cause of the Cardinal's decision? And I want to make it clear that this is not an anti Catholic rant. Protestant churches are as bad or worse.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
pagerman @ work
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
dermdoc said:

Why do I cynically think that big money pro abortion NY Catholics are the cause of the Cardinal's decision? And I want to make it clear that this is not an anti Catholic rant. Protestant churches are as bad or worse.
I'm sure that's part of it, honestly. Plus the PR backlash in a state as left as NY could potentially result in some really bad things happening.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
chimpanzee
How long do you want to ignore this user?
pagerman @ work said:

dermdoc said:

Why do I cynically think that big money pro abortion NY Catholics are the cause of the Cardinal's decision? And I want to make it clear that this is not an anti Catholic rant. Protestant churches are as bad or worse.
I'm sure that's part of it, honestly. Plus the PR backlash in a state as left as NY could potentially result in some really bad things happening.

You have to wonder when/if the church leadership around the world gets Stockholm Syndrome.
PabloSerna
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Gator03 said:

dermdoc said:

Yet something has gone wrong. How can pro abortion people like Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, etc. still receive Communion and not be excommunicated from the Church?
Great question.


Long answer:
CHAPTER ONE
THE DIGNITY OF THE HUMAN PERSON

ARTICLE 6
MORAL CONSCIENCE

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

I. THE JUDGMENT OF CONSCIENCE

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

FTACo88-FDT24dad
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
k2aggie07 said:

I don't think truth and mercy are opposed here, or ever really. The way you express that truth is where love and gentleness are required, but they don't change the truth.

So I think there are two different conversations here - what is the truth of the matter, and how do we witness that truth in love for each other? The first informs the second, the second can't impinge on the first.
No argument with that.
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.