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A good argument could be made that true worship also requires an Apostolic liturgy.
k2aggie07 said:
Can you define worship? Are you just talking about music?
Amen and amen. The formality of dressing up a bit and singing great hymns of the faith has been vastly understated.Reciting the Apostle's Creed likewise grounds a church theologicallyQuote:
1. Tailoring worship style to popular culture is overrated.
For many American Protestant churches, it has become almost an article of faith that worship style needs to match popular culture. This is an effort to ensure that unchurched people can "relate" to Christian worship. That may be convincing for many church and denominational leaders, but does experience corroborate this widespread notion? While many Protestant congregations bend over backwards to fit their worship to popular tastes and trends, many of these churches are no longer growing. Orthodox churches do not even use any musical instruments in worship, yet they still have the highest percentage of adults under 30 among their adherents compared to other Christian groups.
Thinking that Protestants are going to embrace the vestments/incense or stand for hours for a very formalized worship is stretching it. We like heart-grabbing sermons, testimonies delivered by preachers passionate to reach people with the gospel and we like altar calls and healing services. Likewise, the beauty of believer baptism rather than infant baptism (a sticking point for me within my church) can describe the journey of faith because it is God's relationship with us to bring us to willing submission.Quote:
2. Life is liturgical.
Liturgy, the Eastern Orthodox term for worship, has Greek origins and literally means "work of the people." A major purpose is to form habits that facilitate a life of faith that is meaningful and good. One does not need to understand all the fine points of Orthodox liturgy to realize that our daily activities mold us. James Smith, a Calvinist theologian influenced by Eastern Orthodox thought, reminds us that even the most casual or ordinary activities, such as going to a shopping mall, attending a sporting event or just hanging out with friends, contribute to our character formation. A better awareness of this contribution can make us more selective regarding the activities we engage in and more intentional about shaping our character. This awareness can shape our spiritual formation, which, in turn, may make our churches more vital.
Agreed. Many churches resemble corporate or municipal multi-purpose buildings with little of the heavenly depicted in their windows or walls.Quote:
3. Images matter.
In its zeal to combat idolatry, much of Western Christianity removed images, statuary and art from its churches. Eastern Orthodox Christians chose a different path. Icons reflect what the Christian life is like, and one does not need to venerate them in order to realize the importance of images for worship and spiritual formation. American Christians are constantly bombarded by secular images of the "good life" on television, in magazines and on social media, not to mention shopping centers. We need to be cognizant of the power of images and look for ways to use art and other imagery in our worship and spiritual formation programs.
Obviously so.Quote:
4. So does beauty.
Then some Protestant churches need a general shakeout to eliminate abusive personality types from the clergy and earn the trust of the community around them. That is a huge problem with politically oriented pastors from either side of the spectrum in particular, and churches seem to attract abusers into their ranks.Quote:
5. It's not Jesus and me; it's Jesus and all of us, living and dead.
"Me and Jesus got our own thing going; me and Jesus got it all worked out," says a popular evangelical song. This individualistic mindset, which seems to reflect much of American Protestantism, relegates the church to secondary importance after individual salvation. If me and Jesus, in this order, have it all worked out, it is not clear why we need our brothers and sisters (or even our pastors and other ministers). The link between this mentality and empty pews on Sunday mornings seems apparent.
In contrast, this individualistic ethos is quite alien to Eastern Orthodox spirituality. According to Orthodox teaching, attending worship is essential for salvation, which has a robust communal dimension. In addition, liturgy is a place where not only the living are present, but the souls of the dead are also there, strengthening worshippers in their journey of faith.
One does not need to share Orthodox dogma to realize that giving due recognition to the communal dimension and other strengths of Christian faith and worship in Orthodox Christianity can have a positive influence on Protestant churches in America. Perhaps more dialogue between leaders of these two traditions could prove fruitful for both.
In the meantime, it seems we Baptists and other Protestants can affirm again the joyous refrain of "Christ is risen!" with our Orthodox sisters and brothers as they celebrate the resurrection this Sunday
Which one? And are Southern Baptists really your brothers and sisters?Redstone said:
As a former Southern Baptist, I urge all my brothers and sisters to pray about joining the Apostolic faith (Catholic/ Orthodox)
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The formality of dressing up a bit and singing great hymns of the faith has been vastly understated
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Likewise, the beauty of believer baptism rather than infant baptism (a sticking point for me within my church) can describe the journey of faith because it is God's relationship with us to bring us to willing submission.
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You need the Sacraments and the liturgy
Come home
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Well, for 2,000 years Christians have believed Christ to be very literally present in the Eucharist.
This is the challenge: the Sacraments can be traced to the 1st Century. How exactly is it that the Bible, a product of the discussions of people who believed that, argues against this? You know better?
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What did Christ leave at His ascension?
If he left St. Peter and St. Linus and the anointed successors with, say, the power to "bind and loose," then that tells us something extremely important about the best way to now worship.
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Your characterization of priests and "their decisions" is not accurate. I have very negative opinions about the decisions and formation of many priests over the last century. Those opinions and their collective grave evil do not overcome the promise of protection of the Holy Spirit.
Heck, the greatest of all priests, St. Peter, denied Christ thrice in His presence!
You make a compelling argument, except for your church just being so frigging wrong on so many things. And, it's not being wrong that's the problem - my church is wrong about a lot of stuff too. The problem is that you have this barrier of infallibility that makes it impossible to correct some of the errors, many of them dealing with the very nature of salvation. I don't begrudge you for your heresies; I only begrudge your inability to fix them, and the immutable impasse that keeps us apart. I get it - you can't change, and I respect that. Nonetheless, I can't join a church that claims to be God's one true church, yet it has unchangeable errors on the nature of salvation, and can't even decide who its vicar is. No disrespect intended; I accept you as a brother of the same father, but I have to make peace with the fact that we will only be fully reconciled in eternity.Redstone said:
Further, the Bible is NOT the literal word of God -
Jesus Christ the Logos is the literal Word of God
The Bible is a product of the Apostolic Church, argued and negotiated through the first 3 centuries (most of the councils were actually held in Rome).
Why is the Book of Enoch, referenced in Jude, excluded? Why are the (once extremely controversial) Hebrews and Revealing in?
Because the Apostolic Church said so
Protestant friends in Christ:
You need the Sacraments and the liturgy
Come home
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The problem is that you have this barrier of infallibility that makes it impossible to correct some of the errors, many of them dealing with the very nature of salvation. I don't begrudge you for your heresies; I only begrudge your inability to fix them, and the immutable impasse that keeps us apart. I get it - you can't change, and I respect that.
Perhaps, but probably not in the sense that you mean. Insomuch as the church itself has difficulty distinguishing what is a "doctrine" and what is a "dogma," one could make my position untenable by claiming:k2aggie07 said:Quote:
The problem is that you have this barrier of infallibility that makes it impossible to correct some of the errors, many of them dealing with the very nature of salvation. I don't begrudge you for your heresies; I only begrudge your inability to fix them, and the immutable impasse that keeps us apart. I get it - you can't change, and I respect that.
This is an untenable position.
A dogma is simply a rational formulation about the mystery of God. It is something that can be grasped rationally, to help guide people towards something that cannot be grasped rationally. Dogmas are not true as such, because these are created words and concepts which are used to describe ineffable Realities. But they are useful for demonstrating that other rational concepts are false.Quote:
Perhaps, but probably not in the sense that you mean. Insomuch as the church itself has difficulty distinguishing what is a "doctrine" and what is a "dogma," one could make my position untenable by claiming:
a) That's not a dogma, but merely a doctrine, and therefore subject to change.
b) That is a dogma, and here's why you Protestants are wrong.
or...the ultimate trump card...
c) I'm Catholic and I don't believe that, so it must not be a dogma, or if it is, I don't care.
This doesn't make any sense at all.Quote:
All of this moves toward being less apostolic, which is the one thing they had going for them. We should each hold to our traditions, work together when possible for the Kingdom, and resist speaking of each other in "dogmatic" ill-advised ways.
Good question! Anybody ever see a deer panting for water? I sure haven't.Frok said:
Worship style is irrelevant IMO. The problem is not style, it's content. Are the songs we are singing true? Are they teaching us while we are singing?