Again, I don't know the context. It is perfeclty scriptural and therefore Orthodox and small-o orthodox to say that only he who perseveres will be saved. "If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us."

k2aggie07 said:

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As for being "lukewarm"... Revelation 3 says "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you would be cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I am about to spit you out of My mouth...He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

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Know the verse well. But Chan defines "lukewarm" on his own terms imho.

Shrug, maybe. Never read either of their books.

k2aggie07 said:

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Again, I don't know the context. It is perfeclty scriptural and therefore Orthodox and small-o orthodox to say that only he who perseveres will be saved. "If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us."

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Is retiring from your job not persevering in your opinion? To me "persevering" means keeping the faith and is not based on your job.

Yeah I don't understand that connection. But that quote didn't by itself say anything objectionable. Like I said, I haven't read either of them.

And to get back to Osteen, to me his message is one of hope that even if everything is terrible, God still wins in the end. And He loves us. It fits with my favorite Bible verse Romans 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those that love him, who have been called according to His purpose.

I also find it telling that Osteen never speaks badly about any of the folks who speak badly about him.

Haha why should he? I don't know that I've ever heard of any televangelist (not lumping Osteen with them) or huckster respond to his detractors with anger. It would ruin the whole schtick, peel back the veneer.

Fair enough. I do not send him money so there is still hope for me. And MacArthur and Piper are both worth about 15 mill each so there is that.

k2aggie07 said:

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Yeah I don't understand that connection. But that quote didn't by itself say anything objectionable. Like I said, I haven't read either of them.

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I agree. But he specifically points out members of his church who retire and live at the beach or lake as "not persevering". Just seems strange to tie salvation to working. Especially for a Calvinist.

dermdoc said:

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Fair enough. I do not send him money so there is still hope for me. And MacArthur and Piper are both worth about 15 mill each so there is that.

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Now Jon MacArthur is someone worthy of being used as a resource for a series on Jesus.

I am not a Calvinist so I disagree. Plus he seems pretty judgmental. He is bright and well read, just disagree with his theology.

And edited to add that I have never understood how MacArthur and Piper, who are both self proclaimed Calvinists, could also be Lordship salvation guys. Probably just me.

I'm not a calvinist either but I respect John MacArthur. I understand he can come off as judgemental, he has that, "You better not have any fun or pleasure" demeanor to him. Babylon Bee spoofs at it frequently.

But the guy knows his stuff.

I respect him for being a fellow believer. I just am flummoxed as to his theology of Calvinism AND Lordship salvation. Calvinism stresses the ultimate sovereignty of God and Lordship Salvation creates a pastor generated proof of true salvation. It is completely illogical and an oxymoron.

Frok said:

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I'm not a calvinist either but I respect John MacArthur. I understand he can come off as judgemental, he has that, "You better not have any fun or pleasure" demeanor to him. Babylon Bee spoofs at it frequently.

But the guy knows his stuff.

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Obviously not if he thinks we shouldn't have any fun

brs4688 said:

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So to be clear, you are going to Monday morning quarterback a guy who has built a church of thousands and thousands, written numerous books and fills stadiums with people who want to hear his message? I don't get it.

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L. Ron Hubbard says hello.