Average Guy said:

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I wonder if someone who follows this more closely can comment on the idea that US delegates were overwhelmingly (the article said 2/3, I think) in favor of the one church plan. Did I read that right? Does it represent sentiment of US members overall?

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I did some back of the napkin math and I'm guessing it's even more than that. If 300 of the Traditional Plan votes came from Africa/Phillipines (which may even be conservative), then it's closer to 75% of US delegates voted for One Church.

Also recall that the delegates are both clergy and laity. Acting as if only the clergy are in support of a more liberal position on this issue is likely inaccurate.

diehard03 said:

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So, when Traditional Plan supporters say "oh well, what can we do? It's just scripture, I'm not making my own judgments" it rings fairly hollow. I'd be far more sympathetic to the Traditional Plan if it also said that divorced people can't be ministers and we can't perform second marriages in the church. Because if it were truly just about the Gospel, it would include those things. I wish supporters were more honest about it. Say "it's not just the Gospel, my reason tells me we should exclude LGBT persons from the clergy."

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I'm not sure what one thing has to do with the other, and I think this only weakens your argument to go on this path....because you open yourself to the response of "You're right, they will be excluded next".

I think proponents of the One Church plan should focus on whether it's a sin or not and leave the fight there. Whataboutism never leads anywhere good.

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But they won't be excluded next. We all know that. The only purpose of citing other acts which Paul cautions against is to point out the the exclusion of LGBT clergy/weddings is not SOLELY a scriptural decision, and doing so in a pretty obvious way. It is a scriptural decision overlaid with reason and experience, and everyone supporting either plan should be honest about that.

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But they won't be excluded next. We all know that.

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I don't know. One of the side effects here is that there is now a strong voting block. Now that they've confirmed their power, what's the stop them from bringing additional reforms like this?

diehard03 said:

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But they won't be excluded next. We all know that.

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I don't know. One of the side effects here is that there is now a strong voting block. Now that they've confirmed their power, what's the stop them from bringing additional reforms like this?

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Fair point.

1. The voting block is actually likely to get STRONGER as progressive churches leave the denomination. That was going to happen anyway given growth in Africa, but will happen faster now.

2. However, what's the constituency for those other reforms? Maybe the African conferences? I'm certain there's no support for removing ordination of women even among the US WCA churches. Still, the numbers will likely be there in the future for any sort of reform the African conferences desire.

FtWorthHorn said:

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diehard03 said:

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But they won't be excluded next. We all know that.

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I don't know. One of the side effects here is that there is now a strong voting block. Now that they've confirmed their power, what's the stop them from bringing additional reforms like this?

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Fair point.

1. The voting block is actually likely to get STRONGER as progressive churches leave the denomination. That was going to happen anyway given growth in Africa, but will happen faster now.

2. However, what's the constituency for those other reforms? Maybe the African conferences? I'm certain there's no support for removing ordination of women even among the US WCA churches. Still, the numbers will likely be there in the future for any sort of reform the African conferences desire.

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The NY Times article on the General Conference notes that denominations which have become accepting of same sex marriage and LGBTQ clergy have declined in numbers. In other words, younger people who theoretically should be attracted to them simply are not showing up. That point seems to have been lost on the bishops and especially Will Willimon who said that the Traditional Plan locks out the next generation. Is he so obtuse as to think the only new people converting to Methodism are LGBTQ?

Seemingly.

Is there somewhere that shows the individual votes of clergy?

I would hope it's made public so we can rid ourselves of the clergy that move on.

And I'm not really talking about pastors, more so bishops that don't interact with laity enough to have a grasp on what they feel is best for their church.

That's the way it always is.

Lots of (most) conservatives have lost their fighting spirit on these issues because they get drug through the mud and treated like savages.

Now-a-days people will attack folks any way they can; at work, home, etc.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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From Pastor Hans Fiene

"For quite some time, hippie boomer clergy persons across denominational lines have insisted that they had a much better approach to building the kingdom of God on earth than those uptight, rigid losers in their church bodies.

"If you make people think they have to do and believe all the Bible stuff, they'll throw Baby Jesus out with the bathwater," they insisted. "But if you you give them the freedom to cut loose any burdensome bits of the Bible, they'll be more likely to hang onto the stuff that matters."

And so they spent decades doing exactly that--dismissing or downplaying every Biblical doctrine that challenges Christians or threatened to rob them of the world's respect. They spent decades convinced that they had unlocked the secret to building a more loving, more inclusive, more attractive church than the one handed to them by the apostles.

But now the results are in and they couldn't be clearer. The hippie boomer clergy persons have failed. Utterly. Miserably. They didn't draw people into the church by teaching them that Christianity could be painless. They drove people away from the church by teaching them that Christianity was pointless. They have destroyed the congregations and church bodies they control, causing them to hemorrhage members at an almost unbelievable pace while those stupid, uptight rigid losers who won't let go of their embarrassing beliefs are somehow growing in numbers and influence.

The facts are indisputable. They are obvious to everyone. The hippie boomer clergy persons are killing mainline protestantism and the only thing keeping its heart beating is the embarrassing orthodoxy of those slack-jawed yokels and primitive Africans who don't know their place and who can't pull their heads out of a Bible long enough to receive the gift of divine wokeness.

So when you see a bunch of hippie boomer Methodists giving weepy speeches at conventions blaming those stuffy traditionalists for their dwindling membership, these are not the words of pious Christians desperately imploring their beloved brothers to help reverse the beloved institution's decline. These are the words of embittered souls who would rather watch their churches die than admit that those embarrassing fundies might have been right all along. This is the sound of Cain refusing to acknowledge that God chose his loser brother's sacrifice instead of his own."

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Our UMC, like the RCC has a clergy problem (although in different ways)...Great summary of what happened!

My position was made clear in my initial post, but regardless of where you stand on the issue, it's my belief this could well be the death knell for the Methodist Church, as it stands as the largest Protestant church, in this country.

While similar concerns were held when they changed their stance of blacks and women, those were moves towards inclusivity. This is a move, perhaps in perception alone, towards exclusive.

Our current social climate doesn't lend itself towards people flocking to exclusive churches. The rise of the non-denominationals, and the falling, not the rising, numbers of Methodists here in the US are clear indicators of that.

While every Protestant faith may be in line with their stance on this issue, none are having their position broadcast in the Wall Street Journal. That's bad pub.

The fact of the matter is that this decision didn't just alienate the small amount of LGBTQ folks, it alienated their supporters as well as those who carry the idea that loving > judging. Those people could be patently wrong with regard to scripture, but churches also need people and funding to operate.

It'll be very interesting to see what the ultimate fallout will be.

*also, Hans noted that the liberals were convingly defeated and that's not the case and is a misleading statement. The opinions of countries where homosexuals are put to death were crucial in this decision. In the US the decision was around 2/3 to 3/4 in support of it. The OCP was defeated, it not handily and should, like the direction of Texas to a bluer state, be reason for concern rather than spiking god the football.

This Twitter thread is super interesting/important, esp for us non-methodists watching from the sidelines

SquareOne07 said:

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My position was made clear in my initial post, but regardless of where you stand on the issue, it's my belief this could well be the death knell for the Methodist Church, as it stands as the largest Protestant church, in this country.

While similar concerns were held when they changed their stance of blacks and women, those were moves towards inclusivity. This is a move, perhaps in perception alone, towards exclusive.

Our current social climate doesn't lend itself towards people flocking to exclusive churches. The rise of the non-denominationals, and the falling, not the rising, numbers of Methodists here in the US are clear indicators of that.

While every Protestant faith may be in line with their stance on this issue, none are having their position broadcast in the Wall Street Journal. That's bad pub.

The fact of the matter is that this decision didn't just alienate the small amount of LGBTQ folks, it alienated their supporters as well as those who carry the idea that loving > judging. Those people could be patently wrong with regard to scripture, but churches also need people and funding to operate.

It'll be very interesting to see what the ultimate fallout will be.

*also, Hans noted that the liberals were convingly defeated and that's not the case and is a misleading statement. The opinions of countries where homosexuals are put to death were crucial in this decision. In the US the decision was around 2/3 to 3/4 in support of it. The OCP was defeated, it not handily and should, like the direction of Texas to a bluer state, be reason for concern rather than spiking god the football.

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Like I've said previously a split was going to occur one way or another...The denomination could not have survived much longer with this "civil war" that's been destroying the UMC for the past 20 + years.. we lost a lot of conservative Methodist over the years during this time..My hope is we'll see a lot of them come home now..

88Warrior said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Quote:

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From Pastor Hans Fiene

"For quite some time, hippie boomer clergy persons across denominational lines have insisted that they had a much better approach to building the kingdom of God on earth than those uptight, rigid losers in their church bodies.

"If you make people think they have to do and believe all the Bible stuff, they'll throw Baby Jesus out with the bathwater," they insisted. "But if you you give them the freedom to cut loose any burdensome bits of the Bible, they'll be more likely to hang onto the stuff that matters."

And so they spent decades doing exactly that--dismissing or downplaying every Biblical doctrine that challenges Christians or threatened to rob them of the world's respect. They spent decades convinced that they had unlocked the secret to building a more loving, more inclusive, more attractive church than the one handed to them by the apostles.

But now the results are in and they couldn't be clearer. The hippie boomer clergy persons have failed. Utterly. Miserably. They didn't draw people into the church by teaching them that Christianity could be painless. They drove people away from the church by teaching them that Christianity was pointless. They have destroyed the congregations and church bodies they control, causing them to hemorrhage members at an almost unbelievable pace while those stupid, uptight rigid losers who won't let go of their embarrassing beliefs are somehow growing in numbers and influence.

The facts are indisputable. They are obvious to everyone. The hippie boomer clergy persons are killing mainline protestantism and the only thing keeping its heart beating is the embarrassing orthodoxy of those slack-jawed yokels and primitive Africans who don't know their place and who can't pull their heads out of a Bible long enough to receive the gift of divine wokeness.

So when you see a bunch of hippie boomer Methodists giving weepy speeches at conventions blaming those stuffy traditionalists for their dwindling membership, these are not the words of pious Christians desperately imploring their beloved brothers to help reverse the beloved institution's decline. These are the words of embittered souls who would rather watch their churches die than admit that those embarrassing fundies might have been right all along. This is the sound of Cain refusing to acknowledge that God chose his loser brother's sacrifice instead of his own."

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Our UMC, like the RCC has a clergy problem (although in different ways)...Great summary of what happened!

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Yeah, as a Catholic, I was thinking along the same lines... much of Pastor Fiene's words could be applied (albeit differently) to the Catholic situation. Lord, have mercy.

747Ag said:

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88Warrior said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Quote:

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From Pastor Hans Fiene

"For quite some time, hippie boomer clergy persons across denominational lines have insisted that they had a much better approach to building the kingdom of God on earth than those uptight, rigid losers in their church bodies.

"If you make people think they have to do and believe all the Bible stuff, they'll throw Baby Jesus out with the bathwater," they insisted. "But if you you give them the freedom to cut loose any burdensome bits of the Bible, they'll be more likely to hang onto the stuff that matters."

And so they spent decades doing exactly that--dismissing or downplaying every Biblical doctrine that challenges Christians or threatened to rob them of the world's respect. They spent decades convinced that they had unlocked the secret to building a more loving, more inclusive, more attractive church than the one handed to them by the apostles.

But now the results are in and they couldn't be clearer. The hippie boomer clergy persons have failed. Utterly. Miserably. They didn't draw people into the church by teaching them that Christianity could be painless. They drove people away from the church by teaching them that Christianity was pointless. They have destroyed the congregations and church bodies they control, causing them to hemorrhage members at an almost unbelievable pace while those stupid, uptight rigid losers who won't let go of their embarrassing beliefs are somehow growing in numbers and influence.

The facts are indisputable. They are obvious to everyone. The hippie boomer clergy persons are killing mainline protestantism and the only thing keeping its heart beating is the embarrassing orthodoxy of those slack-jawed yokels and primitive Africans who don't know their place and who can't pull their heads out of a Bible long enough to receive the gift of divine wokeness.

So when you see a bunch of hippie boomer Methodists giving weepy speeches at conventions blaming those stuffy traditionalists for their dwindling membership, these are not the words of pious Christians desperately imploring their beloved brothers to help reverse the beloved institution's decline. These are the words of embittered souls who would rather watch their churches die than admit that those embarrassing fundies might have been right all along. This is the sound of Cain refusing to acknowledge that God chose his loser brother's sacrifice instead of his own."

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Our UMC, like the RCC has a clergy problem (although in different ways)...Great summary of what happened!

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Yeah, as a Catholic, I was thinking along the same lines... much of Pastor Fiene's words could be applied (albeit differently) to the Catholic situation. Lord, have mercy.

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Just to be clear...that wasn't a shot a Catholics at all..just trying to draw a comparison.., rocks and glass houses and all that...

88Warrior said:

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747Ag said:

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88Warrior said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Quote:

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From Pastor Hans Fiene

"For quite some time, hippie boomer clergy persons across denominational lines have insisted that they had a much better approach to building the kingdom of God on earth than those uptight, rigid losers in their church bodies.

"If you make people think they have to do and believe all the Bible stuff, they'll throw Baby Jesus out with the bathwater," they insisted. "But if you you give them the freedom to cut loose any burdensome bits of the Bible, they'll be more likely to hang onto the stuff that matters."

And so they spent decades doing exactly that--dismissing or downplaying every Biblical doctrine that challenges Christians or threatened to rob them of the world's respect. They spent decades convinced that they had unlocked the secret to building a more loving, more inclusive, more attractive church than the one handed to them by the apostles.

But now the results are in and they couldn't be clearer. The hippie boomer clergy persons have failed. Utterly. Miserably. They didn't draw people into the church by teaching them that Christianity could be painless. They drove people away from the church by teaching them that Christianity was pointless. They have destroyed the congregations and church bodies they control, causing them to hemorrhage members at an almost unbelievable pace while those stupid, uptight rigid losers who won't let go of their embarrassing beliefs are somehow growing in numbers and influence.

The facts are indisputable. They are obvious to everyone. The hippie boomer clergy persons are killing mainline protestantism and the only thing keeping its heart beating is the embarrassing orthodoxy of those slack-jawed yokels and primitive Africans who don't know their place and who can't pull their heads out of a Bible long enough to receive the gift of divine wokeness.

So when you see a bunch of hippie boomer Methodists giving weepy speeches at conventions blaming those stuffy traditionalists for their dwindling membership, these are not the words of pious Christians desperately imploring their beloved brothers to help reverse the beloved institution's decline. These are the words of embittered souls who would rather watch their churches die than admit that those embarrassing fundies might have been right all along. This is the sound of Cain refusing to acknowledge that God chose his loser brother's sacrifice instead of his own."

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Our UMC, like the RCC has a clergy problem (although in different ways)...Great summary of what happened!

---

Yeah, as a Catholic, I was thinking along the same lines... much of Pastor Fiene's words could be applied (albeit differently) to the Catholic situation. Lord, have mercy.

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Just to be clear...that wasn't a shot a Catholics at all..just trying to draw a comparison.., rocks and glass houses and all that...

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I didn't take it as a shot. I'm well aware of our garbage.

After doing more reading and listening to a couple podcasts on the issue...this all seems to stem from a lack of defining where the sin (if any in their eyes) across the homosexuality landscape. To clarify, meaning that when someone says "gay", it means everything from same sex attraction to identity.

It's strange because proponents and opponents are talking like they are on opposing sides of different issues.

Wow. Thank you!

DVC2010 said:

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wbt5845 said:

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Anyone else find it interesting that - if it had passed - conservatives would have been told they need to "toe the line" and be "open to new understandings" and be "inclusive and loving" - but since it failed - liberals are free to bash the other side, wail and scream, and insult the other side as "backwards"?

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I'm pretty sure I just read some pretty severe liberal bashing and insulting on this thread.

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Quote what you're talking about.

TresPuertas said:

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DVC2010 said:

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wbt5845 said:

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Anyone else find it interesting that - if it had passed - conservatives would have been told they need to "toe the line" and be "open to new understandings" and be "inclusive and loving" - but since it failed - liberals are free to bash the other side, wail and scream, and insult the other side as "backwards"?

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I'm pretty sure I just read some pretty severe liberal bashing and insulting on this thread.

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Quote what you're talking about.

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Quote:

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...

So when you see a bunch of hippie boomer Methodists giving weepy speeches at conventions blaming those stuffy traditionalists for their dwindling membership, these are not the words of pious Christians desperately imploring their beloved brothers to help reverse the beloved institution's decline. These are the words of embittered souls who would rather watch their churches die than admit that those embarrassing fundies might have been right all along. This is the sound of Cain refusing to acknowledge that God chose his loser brother's sacrifice instead of his own."

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I'm not trying to pick a fight, but there's evidently strong rhetoric on both sides. Pastor Fiene certainly doesn't pull his punches, and I'd be insulted if you compared me to Cain and his petulance.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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This Twitter thread is super interesting/important, esp for us non-methodists watching from the sidelines

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Oooof that is an awful take. His big miss is that those colonial progressives in the UMC were proposing two options to keep the church together without forcing the African churches to change..anything at all. So while the dynamic he describes is accurate, his application to this situation is totally off.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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This Twitter thread is super interesting/important, esp for us non-methodists watching from the sidelines

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I see the "national" vs "global" fight starting show more and more within the LCMS.

I've seen arguments both ways that the Synod President either has too much or not enough power to effect change in the synod.

Personally, I think there needs to be a bit more centralized power, but understand why people are against it.

I heard that the American churches were considering withholding funding from the African churches.

African churches basically told them to **** off, we're about God and not money. That's an American thing.

Refreshing.

How did your Methodist pastors handle this weeks vote on Sunday?

I was surprised...

- We had a better turnout than usual
- The "passing of the peace" was more energetic and considerably longer
- The sermon, by our progressively bent pastor, was about letting all of God's people experience his love and salvation. It was applauded at a church that doesn't applaud and many eyes were wiped
- We have a lesbian couple who came as a matter of principal and they were greeted by many after church and told they were loved

I'm curious how the more Traditional pastors responded...my hope is they didn't "spike the football" as we've seen much of on FB and TexAgs.