United Methodists to Dissolve/Split Next Year?

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dermdoc
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In reply to AGC • 1:46p, 1/14/19
AG
AGC said:
dermdoc said:
And I agree with you that Jesus made it clear that he is the only way. But I can not remember when he was exclusive. You mentioned thieves, how did Christ respond to the thief on the cross?


His claim that He is the way is undeniably exclusive. You're also asking me to defend the idea that he walked the countryside preaching systematic theology. Clearly He didn't, yet we see him rebuking incorrect teaching repeatedly and referring to those teachers as thieves and wolves and vipers. And he read in the temple. Beliefs about God matter. Again, disagreement about some issues is understandable with no definitive scripture to say one way or the other but some of these divides are not like the others. That is what I take issue with.
What if it is not exclusive? What would keep him from saving everybody? Or do you think it is dependent on us?

Edited to add that what does the word Gospel mean? And did the angels say to all men? Or some men?
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AGC
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:11p, 1/14/19
AG
dermdoc said:
AGC said:
dermdoc said:
And I agree with you that Jesus made it clear that he is the only way. But I can not remember when he was exclusive. You mentioned thieves, how did Christ respond to the thief on the cross?


His claim that He is the way is undeniably exclusive. You're also asking me to defend the idea that he walked the countryside preaching systematic theology. Clearly He didn't, yet we see him rebuking incorrect teaching repeatedly and referring to those teachers as thieves and wolves and vipers. And he read in the temple. Beliefs about God matter. Again, disagreement about some issues is understandable with no definitive scripture to say one way or the other but some of these divides are not like the others. That is what I take issue with.
What if it is not exclusive? What would keep him from saving everybody? Or do you think it is dependent on us?

Edited to add that what does the word Gospel mean? And did the angels say to all men? Or some men?


Are you asking, 'What if Jesus is not the way?' Do you imply that he actually meant, 'Some will come to the father, though not through me?'
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dermdoc
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In reply to AGC • 2:30p, 1/14/19
AG
AGC said:
dermdoc said:
AGC said:
dermdoc said:
And I agree with you that Jesus made it clear that he is the only way. But I can not remember when he was exclusive. You mentioned thieves, how did Christ respond to the thief on the cross?


His claim that He is the way is undeniably exclusive. You're also asking me to defend the idea that he walked the countryside preaching systematic theology. Clearly He didn't, yet we see him rebuking incorrect teaching repeatedly and referring to those teachers as thieves and wolves and vipers. And he read in the temple. Beliefs about God matter. Again, disagreement about some issues is understandable with no definitive scripture to say one way or the other but some of these divides are not like the others. That is what I take issue with.
What if it is not exclusive? What would keep him from saving everybody? Or do you think it is dependent on us?

Edited to add that what does the word Gospel mean? And did the angels say to all men? Or some men?


Are you asking, 'What if Jesus is not the way?' Do you imply that he actually meant, 'Some will come to the father, though not through me?'
No I am saying He is the way. The only Way. But when did He ever exclude anyone from that Way during His time on Earth?
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Aggie4Life02
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:43p, 1/14/19
AG
dermdoc said:
Aggie4Life02 said:
MidTnAg said:
Aggie4Life02 said:
UMC needs to kick the liberals out or the denomination will not survive.
That is similar to what far right individuals said about churches who integrated when I was growing up, kick the blacks out of your church or it will not survive.

Now far right individuals are saying, "kick the liberals out or the denomination will not survive".

I wonder if we will ever be an inclusive society.


Skin color is irrelevant to faith. Theology is not. God isn't inclusive when it comes to theology. He is very exclusive.
Disagree. What was the theology of the Prodigal Son? Or the adulteress? Or the prostitute who washed Christ's feet? By your post, should not Christ have excluded them?

And edited to add that from my reading it was the Pharisees who were exclusive, not Christ.



What Paul said when false teacher added one small thing to the Gospel, namely that Christians were required to be circumcised:

Quote:
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
Galatians 1:6-9 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/gal.1.6-9.NASB


There is a difference between ignorance of theology and teaching false theology.

These false teachers are a danger to Christ's people:
Quote:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/2ti.4.3-4.NASB
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 2:51p, 1/14/19
AG

Quote:
These false teachers are a danger to Christ's people
But this isn't something unique to "liberals". We see it across the spectrum.
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Frok
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2:52p, 1/14/19
AG
Theology is vitally important. There are essential issues and preferential issues. You can't just say you are a church of Jesus and not clarify exactly what that means. Benny Hinn proclaims Christ.


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dermdoc
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 2:52p, 1/14/19
AG
Agree, And I have given examples of what Christ's teachings were. Do you think the examples I gave were exclusive or inclusive? What did the theology of the time say about an adulteress? Or a drunken Prodigal? Or a thief? Do you have an example where Christ excluded anybody? In fact, He was condemned by the theologians of that time for hanging around sinners. And being a wine bibber.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Frok • 2:55p, 1/14/19
AG

Quote:
Theology is vitally important. There are essential issues and preferential issues.
Agreed.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Frok • 3:20p, 1/14/19
AG
Frok said:
Theology is vitally important. There are essential issues and preferential issues. You can't just say you are a church of Jesus and not clarify exactly what that means. Benny Hinn proclaims Christ.


Agreed. I am more concerned with what we as Christians are focused on.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Frok • 3:24p, 1/14/19
AG
Quote:
Theology is vitally important. There are essential issues and preferential issues. You can't just say you are a church of Jesus and not clarify exactly what that means. Benny Hinn proclaims Christ.
I disagree. When asked what must be done to obtain eternal life, Jesus said love God and love your neighbor. John 3:16 talks about people who believe in Jesus gaining eternal life. And Jesus says (and Paul reiterates many times) that believing in Jesus means doing what He says, and doing what He says means loving one another. Compare the parable of the good Samaritan versus the Levite and Priest. Not hard to see which one had the most deficient theology.

In fact, God is famously tolerant and merciful of people worshipping him wrongly as long as their heart is in the right place. He forgives countless times as long as people are repentent. He allowed the Israelites to worship Passover on the wrong day, because they had missed the right day. He made the Rechabites priests due to their diligence to their ancestor, and they didn't know anything of theology. God will work with you if your heart is in the right place.

Theology is another way for people to draw lines and act badly to other people for being wrong. Which is exactly the opposite of what we are called on to do.
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dermdoc
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 3:31p, 1/14/19
AG
Well said and I agree with you also. But I think the fundamental "theology" you talk about is essential. Unfortunately, we get hung up on the other stuff.
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Frok
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 3:43p, 1/14/19
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
Theology is vitally important. There are essential issues and preferential issues. You can't just say you are a church of Jesus and not clarify exactly what that means. Benny Hinn proclaims Christ.
I disagree. When asked what must be done to obtain eternal life, Jesus said love God and love your neighbor. John 3:16 talks about people who believe in Jesus gaining eternal life. And Jesus says (and Paul reiterates many times) that believing in Jesus means doing what He says, and doing what He says means loving one another. Compare the parable of the good Samaritan versus the Levite and Priest. Not hard to see which one had the most deficient theology.

In fact, God is famously tolerant and merciful of people worshipping him wrongly as long as their heart is in the right place. He forgives countless times as long as people are repentent. He allowed the Israelites to worship Passover on the wrong day, because they had missed the right day. He made the Rechabites priests due to their diligence to their ancestor, and they didn't know anything of theology. God will work with you if your heart is in the right place.

Theology is another way for people to draw lines and act badly to other people for being wrong. Which is exactly the opposite of what we are called on to do.


Yes God forgives sin. That doesn't mean we don't try to follow in accordance with His rules. God gave us rules for our own good. There is good theology that if followed allows you to live a more abundant life in Christ. If you ignore good sound teaching and follow the wave of society you will have a much more difficult time. (And likely not bear as much fruit)
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Frok • 5:34p, 1/14/19
AG
Quote:
Yes God forgives sin. That doesn't mean we don't try to follow in accordance with His rules. God gave us rules for our own good. There is good theology that if followed allows you to live a more abundant life in Christ. If you ignore good sound teaching and follow the wave of society you will have a much more difficult time. (And likely not bear as much fruit)

Ok, I'll buy that. I agree.
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Aggie4Life02
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In reply to PacifistAg • 5:58p, 1/14/19
AG
PacifistAg said:

Quote:
These false teachers are a danger to Christ's people
But this isn't something unique to "liberals". We see it across the spectrum.


When I say liberal, I'm talking about religious liberals, not political liberals.
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Aggie4Life02
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In reply to dermdoc • 6:00p, 1/14/19
AG
dermdoc said:
Agree, And I have given examples of what Christ's teachings were. Do you think the examples I gave were exclusive or inclusive? What did the theology of the time say about an adulteress? Or a drunken Prodigal? Or a thief? Do you have an example where Christ excluded anybody? In fact, He was condemned by the theologians of that time for hanging around sinners. And being a wine bibber.


The theology of the time was, "Go and sin no more." Not, "Let me officiate your same-sex wedding."
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 6:41p, 1/14/19
AG
Aggie4Life02 said:
PacifistAg said:

Quote:
These false teachers are a danger to Christ's people
But this isn't something unique to "liberals". We see it across the spectrum.


When I say liberal, I'm talking about religious liberals, not political liberals.

I know.
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Frok
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6:54p, 1/14/19
AG
Religious liberals, as long as they stay within doctrinal boundaries, are necessary for a healthy religious body. Same goes for the right. We need both sides to challenge us and keep us grounded.
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UTExan
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In reply to Frok • 7:02p, 1/14/19
Frok said:
Religious liberals, as long as they stay within doctrinal boundaries, are necessary for a healthy religious body. Same goes for the right. We need both sides to challenge us and keep us grounded.


You are absolutely correct. The problem is that many liberal Methodist pastors do not believe in the tenets of the faith. They are really more universalists than Christian: that is exactly what was happening at Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco when the local conference had to step in to re-take control of its own property.
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Aggie4Life02
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In reply to Frok • 7:58p, 1/14/19
AG
Frok said:
Religious liberals, as long as they stay within doctrinal boundaries, are necessary for a healthy religious body. Same goes for the right. We need both sides to challenge us and keep us grounded.


Officiating a same-sex wedding seems to cross the line...
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dermdoc
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 8:18p, 1/14/19
AG
Aggie4Life02 said:
Frok said:
Religious liberals, as long as they stay within doctrinal boundaries, are necessary for a healthy religious body. Same goes for the right. We need both sides to challenge us and keep us grounded.


Officiating a same-sex wedding seems to cross the line...
Agree.
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Bird Poo
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 8:40p, 1/14/19
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Say what you want about the RCC, but they sure have weathered some hard times and kept going


Former Methodist here. I feel very much at home in the RCC.
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Frok
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In reply to Aggie4Life02 • 8:42p, 1/14/19
AG
Aggie4Life02 said:
Frok said:
Religious liberals, as long as they stay within doctrinal boundaries, are necessary for a healthy religious body. Same goes for the right. We need both sides to challenge us and keep us grounded.


Officiating a same-sex wedding seems to cross the line...


Agreed as well.
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Frok
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In reply to UTExan • 8:45p, 1/14/19
AG
UTExan said:
Frok said:
Religious liberals, as long as they stay within doctrinal boundaries, are necessary for a healthy religious body. Same goes for the right. We need both sides to challenge us and keep us grounded.


You are absolutely correct. The problem is that many liberal Methodist pastors do not believe in the tenets of the faith. They are really more universalists than Christian: that is exactly what was happening at Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco when the local conference had to step in to re-take control of its own property.


Agreed. It's a difficult issue that doesn't appear to have an appealing solution since one group clearly seems to have embraced problematic theology.
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ChemEAg08
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6:56p, 1/15/19
AG
Glad to hear my UMC is firmly in the traditional camp (based on things I've heard from the clergy). Interested in hearing how it turns out...
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88Warrior
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8:41a, 2/18/19
Read in the church bulletin yesterday that the General Conference is meeting in St Louis this week to decide path forward between the three options...The future of the denomination, as we know it, rides on this vote...
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UTExan
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In reply to 88Warrior • 12:38p, 2/18/19
88Warrior said:
Read in the church bulletin yesterday that the General Conference is meeting in St Louis this week to decide path forward between the three options...The future of the denomination, as we know it, rides on this vote...


It looks like the Traditionalists have the numbers right now with the African delegates. So, I wonder if the out group will form another denomination or just leave the dis-UMC?
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88Warrior
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In reply to UTExan • 1:51p, 2/18/19
UTExan said:
88Warrior said:
Read in the church bulletin yesterday that the General Conference is meeting in St Louis this week to decide path forward between the three options...The future of the denomination, as we know it, rides on this vote...


It looks like the Traditionalists have the numbers right now with the African delegates. So, I wonder if the out group will form another denomination or just leave the dis-UMC?


Do you know where daily recaps of the discussions or decisions can be accessed? If there is such a thing...
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SquareOne07
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In reply to UTExan • 2:39p, 2/18/19
AG
UTExan said:
88Warrior said:
Read in the church bulletin yesterday that the General Conference is meeting in St Louis this week to decide path forward between the three options...The future of the denomination, as we know it, rides on this vote...


It looks like the Traditionalists have the numbers right now with the African delegates. So, I wonder if the out group will form another denomination or just leave the dis-UMC?


I have to imagine, in true progressive fashion, that if the Traditionalists win, the progressive factions will declare it illegitimate and break off.
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88Warrior
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3:01p, 2/18/19
The sad thing is it should have never come down to this...This is what years of appeasement does. The denomination should have stood firm years ago when the "progressives" started pushing..Just one Methodist's opinion...
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UTExan
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In reply to 88Warrior • 12:03p, 2/19/19
88Warrior said:
UTExan said:
88Warrior said:
Read in the church bulletin yesterday that the General Conference is meeting in St Louis this week to decide path forward between the three options...The future of the denomination, as we know it, rides on this vote...


It looks like the Traditionalists have the numbers right now with the African delegates. So, I wonder if the out group will form another denomination or just leave the dis-UMC?


Do you know where daily recaps of the discussions or decisions can be accessed? If there is such a thing...


Try goodnewsmag.org.

The leftist united Methodist News Sevice will not give you the real news since it is directed by the church bureaucracy.
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Ciboag96
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8:32a, 2/20/19
Christians are the only people who multiply by division
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TresPuertas
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9:09a, 2/23/19
BTHOthatguy
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10:51p, 2/23/19
AG
The conference is already turning into a cluster. The modified traditional plan had a couple parts ruled (correctly IMO) unconstitutional.

It will still get the most votes tomorrow to be considered. The liberals will try to get some poison pills approved and will fail. Then it will either pass or the libs will walk out, breaking quorum.
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SquareOne07
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In reply to BTHOthatguy • 11:08p, 2/23/19
AG
Where are you hearing that it's a cluster? I'd be curious to hear some more about that.
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88Warrior
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In reply to SquareOne07 • 5:03a, 2/24/19
SquareOne07 said:
Where are you hearing that it's a cluster? I'd be curious to hear some more about that.


Curious as well.. Maybe there will be an update at church this morning...
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