United Methodists to Dissolve/Split Next Year?

25,668 Views | 218 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by OnlyForNow
UTExan
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Perhaps so. The debate over tolerance for open homosexual practices by members of clergy and the lack of enforcement of church standards is the major issue driving this debate now and a special General Conference to address the future of the denomination is set for February, 2019.

Quote:

The majority of bishops recommend the One Church Plan, which would leave decisions to allow same-gender weddings up to churches and gay ordination up to annual conferences. The plan also would remove the statement in the denomination's Book of Discipline since 1972 that the practice of homosexuality "is incompatible with Christian teaching." The plan adds protections for United Methodists who view the practice of homosexuality as sinful.
Churches under this scenario would then align with conferences which are theologically based rather than geographically based. But wait.

Quote:

Traditionalist advocates express concerns about both plans, especially the One Church proposal.
The Traditional Plan aims to strengthen enforcement of the denomination's prohibitions and establish a way out for churches and conferences that don't agree to abide by church rules on homosexuality.
The plan, as submitted in the commission's report, sets minimum penalties and quicker expulsion after conviction of violations.

It requires bishops and annual conferences to certify that they would uphold, enforce and maintain Disciplinary standards on marriage and ordination.

The plan requires that beginning in 2021, the General Council on Finance and Administration the denomination's finance agency neither receive nor send funds to conferences that do not pledge to uphold the Discipline until they form a self-governing church. The plan also requires the finance agency to stop these conferences from using the United Methodist name and the cross and flame insignia except under a concordat agreement.

This section of the plan, titled "Implementing Gracious Accountability," does allow local churches to leave with property, assets and liabilities into the self-governing denominations.

The Traditional Plan "provides a gracious way for any local church and any annual conference to leave the denomination without having to worry about the possibility of losing or having to litigate for their property and assets," writes the Rev. Walter Fenton in an essay on the Traditional Plan for the Wesleyan Covenant Association.

A petition submitted by Dunnam augments the gracious accountability section, by adding a $200,000 grant to annual conferences leaving the denomination to help pay for transitional expenses. The General Council on Finance and Administration can fund these grants using reserves held by the denomination's general agencies.

Currently, all church property is legally owned by the Annual Conference of each geographical area. So if a congregation in East Bumstead, Wyoming wanted to sell off part of their church land, they would need approval of the Annual Conference of the Mountain Sky Conference based in Denver.

The Wesleyan Covenant Association plan allows each church to exit the conference, or denomination to do so with its property if they choose. But the best part is the standards bishops must uphold:

Quote:

Dunnam's petition also stipulates that by Sept. 1, 2020, the bishops who do not commit to uphold the Discipline's prohibitions will no longer receive funding for housing, office or travel, and will instead be encouraged to join a self-governing church.

The legislation also says provisions in the gracious accountability section "shall take effect immediately upon the adjournment of the 2019 General Conference and shall take precedence over any conflicting provisions in the Discipline that are not in the Constitution."

In a separate petition, Dunnam's legislation creates a new Global Episcopacy Committee to hold bishops and conferences accountable.
Dunnam said he submitted the petitions because this is the most dramatic time in the life of The United Methodist Church since it became a denomination 50 years ago. Dunnam has long suggested that LGBTQ individuals and advocates might be better served outside The United Methodist Church.
"We just have to deal with all those issues that might be taking place and assist people to move forward for the sake of the Kingdom," Dunnam said.

And there is even an amendment to actually dissolve the denomination:
Quote:

While he a champions the Traditional Plan, Boyette also submitted a constitutional amendment that encompasses a plan to dissolve The United Methodist Church. Changing the denomination's constitution requires a two-thirds vote of General Conference and two-thirds ratification votes in the annual conferences.

"I submitted a petition for dissolution of the denomination because, like many other fair-minded people, I think our differences are irreconcilable," Boyette told United Methodist News Service. "I know it is hard for some people to hear or understand that, but I believe it is our present reality. Our differences involve matters at the core of our faith, mission and ministry."
https://www.umnews.org/en/news/groups-push-for-modified-traditional-plan
Aggie4Life02
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AG
UMC needs to kick the liberals out or the denomination will not survive.
UTExan
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Aggie4Life02 said:

UMC needs to kick the liberals out or the denomination will not survive.

Yes. And that includes most of the bishops.
88Warrior
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It's a shame what a once great denomination has allowed itself to become...and make no mistake it was self inflicted due to being wishy washy and not holding the line against liberal policies...If the next conference meeting goes the way I think it will this Methodist will move on...
UTExan
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88Warrior said:

It's a shame what a once great denomination has allowed itself to become...and make no mistake it was self inflicted due to being wishy washy and not holding the line against liberal policies...If the next conference meeting goes the way I think it will this Methodist will move on...


I suspect a rupture could take place. I would like to find a traditional congregation if it happens.
88Warrior
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UTExan said:

88Warrior said:

It's a shame what a once great denomination has allowed itself to become...and make no mistake it was self inflicted due to being wishy washy and not holding the line against liberal policies...If the next conference meeting goes the way I think it will this Methodist will move on...


I suspect a rupture could take place. I would like to find a traditional congregation if it happens.


Me as well.
craigernaught
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AG
There are a lot of vulnerable Methodist churches, especially in urban and rural areas who may not survive a split regardless of which way they break. Many of my friends are pastors in such places in Virginia and Maryland. Liberal and conservative, they are very worried.

I don't know what's going to happen, but in the short term at least, small, vulnerable churches are going to pay the price.
Athanasius
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ramblin_ag02
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Say what you want about the RCC, but they sure have weathered some hard times and kept going
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Athanasius
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Say what you want about the RCC, but they sure have weathered some hard times and kept going
It's because they're not a denomination. They are the Church, founded by Christ. Christ made a promise to her.
Orko
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AG
Please let this happen.

Also, LOL at Athanasius. I appreciate the troll attempt, but it doesn't look like anyone is biting, yet.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
Athanasius
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Orko said:

Please let this happen.

Also, LOL at Athanasius. I appreciate the troll attempt, but it doesn't look like anyone is biting, yet.
No troll, just a call home. Jesus did the same:

John 17...

20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one 23 I in them and you in meso that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

Paul uttered the same:

1 Cor...

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

There are many more.

I love my Methodist friends and family. Time to come home.
craigernaught
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AG
Hard pass
UTExan
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craigernaught said:

Hard pass

Yep. John Wesley did not have any admiration for Roman Catholicism.
BTW, if a new denomination emerges, it could do away with the appointment system which guarantees a job for clergy, no matter how ineffective (and in some cases detrimental) at the annual conference level.
AgLiving06
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My hope is that we will begin to see a consolidation of some of the more conservative groups into a single unified voice.

That's what Protestantism is going to need if it is going to survive.
88Warrior
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AgLiving06 said:

My hope is that we will begin to see a consolidation of some of the more conservative groups into a single unified voice.

That's what Protestantism is going to need if it is going to survive.

I agree 100%.
Quad Dog
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AG
My wife and I are ready to leave our Methodist Church if they prohibit homosexuality. We don't see our leadership going that way, but it may not be totally up to them.
Purely for scientific reasons I want the One Church option to see how accepting vs prohibiting churches are doing in 10 years.
UTExan
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Quad Dog said:

My wife and I are ready to leave our Methodist Church if they prohibit homosexuality. We don't see our leadership going that way, but it may not be totally up to them.
Purely for scientific reasons I want the One Church option to see how accepting vs prohibiting churches are doing in 10 years.


They don't prohibit homosexuality. They prohibit homosexual practices (officially) . A Christian can be heterosexual but may not lawfully have heterosexual relations outside marital relations-although the OT practice of concubinage/polygamy may complicate that somewhat.
Orko
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Quad Dog said:

My wife and I are ready to leave our Methodist Church if they prohibit homosexuality. We don't see our leadership going that way, but it may not be totally up to them.
Purely for scientific reasons I want the One Church option to see how accepting vs prohibiting churches are doing in 10 years.
Just want to go ahead and give you a trigger warning in case you are thinking about cracking a Bible. God hates sexual immorality, which includes practicing homosexuality. He has some pretty strong words about it. Its almost as if believing that sexual immorality is okay would exclude you from actually being a member of the True Church, no matter what you call yourself.

Its pretty courageous that you and your wife place demands on God so that he must bend to your will and not the other way around. I'm not brave enough to deny God his sovereignty. Ballsy move.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
Quad Dog
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Nice post about about the loving forgiving God I've read about hating sexual immorality.
It's much simpler than that for us: It's about not judging. Right now churches everywhere accept all kinds of sexual immorality from heterosexuals in the forms of divorce, adultery, premarital sex, and more. Heterosexuals aren't denied church jobs or marriages for their sins. Why should homosexuals? I respect (but don't agree with) a hard line excluding all forms of sin. But once you allow behavior from one group, you have to do it for all groups.
It's hard to love someone, accept them, forgive them, leave the judging up to higher powers if they aren't even allowed in the building.
Orko
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Quad Dog said:

Nice post about about the loving forgiving God I've read about hating sexual immorality.
It's much simpler than that for us: It's about not judging. Right now churches everywhere accept all kinds of sexual immorality from heterosexuals in the forms of divorce, adultery, premarital sex, and more. Heterosexuals aren't denied church jobs or marriages for their sins. Why should homosexuals? I respect (but don't agree with) a hard line excluding all forms of sin. But once you allow behavior from one group, you have to do it for all groups.
It's hard to love someone, accept them, forgive them, leave the judging up to higher powers if they aren't even allowed in the building.


Except we are specifically called to judge others in our churches and to purge the unrepentant from among us. You rightly state that churches tolerate all kinds of sexual immorality from members, but incorrectly determine that the solution is to accept sin that is even further from Godly sexual relations. You see a church teetering on the precipice of hell and you and your wife have chosen to shove then in, rather than pull them back.

God is not a hippie. Yes, he is the one who suffered for our sins, but he is also the one who drove the sinners from the temple with a whip. He is also the one who ordered the deaths of the evil Amalakites.

By inviting more sin and temptation into his house and among his people, you spit upon his sacrafice and mock his gift of grace and forgiveness. Repent now and encourage your church to turn from sin, not tolerate and embrace it.

The Bible is exceedingly clear. GOD. HATES. SEXUAL. IMMORALITY.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
Socially liberal NPC 888
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Quad Dog said:

Nice post about about the loving forgiving God I've read about hating sexual immorality.
It's much simpler than that for us: It's about not judging. Right now churches everywhere accept all kinds of sexual immorality from heterosexuals in the forms of divorce, adultery, premarital sex, and more. Heterosexuals aren't denied church jobs or marriages for their sins. Why should homosexuals? I respect (but don't agree with) a hard line excluding all forms of sin. But once you allow behavior from one group, you have to do it for all groups.
It's hard to love someone, accept them, forgive them, leave the judging up to higher powers if they aren't even allowed in the building.


Social Justice churches have gotten to the point where they have handwaved away sin in general because it's now "bad" to judge people based upon their desired sexual fetish no matter how degenerate or damaging it may be. They are slowly doing the same with drug use, usury, crime in general, and just general selfish behavior. Why? Because experiencing consequences for anything means you are getting judged and that is bad.

Churches like this have essentially invalidated the reason for Jesus' sacrifice. If there is no sin then what was the point? Why did he sacrifice himself for nothing? Why does the religion of Christianity even exist?

Churches and people who believe this type of nonsense should be considered heretical and purged from all churches.
TresPuertas
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Quad Dog said:

My wife and I are ready to leave our Methodist Church if they prohibit homosexuality. We don't see our leadership going that way, but it may not be totally up to them.
Purely for scientific reasons I want the One Church option to see how accepting vs prohibiting churches are doing in 10 years.
Methodist here.

First off, I'm glad that I found this thread because this issue reared its head at my home Church in Richardson. Since that time, I have spent countless hours in prayer and study trying to figure out this issue. I'll get to that in a second.

After college I spent a lot of time trying to find a church that I truly felt at home at and I finally found one about 13 years ago.

Since that time I have seen myself and family members married at our church, sent my kids to school there, memorialized my grandmother there, seen countless family members join, and attend every Sunday possible and leave feeling fulfilled by the messages and actions of the Church. Its driven by the Gospel and emphasized Jesus' teachings of kindness and service. In short, I love my Church, the people, and the pastor.

About a month ago a letter was sent by our pastor outlining the Churches intentions of debating the One Church plan and was pretty disturbed by what it laid out. I know there is at least one lesbian couple at the church, and probably more, because one Sunday a couple of years ago they brought their child up to be baptized. It was jarring at first glance, but pretty instantly I felt the sense that it was a beautiful thing that people who are there to worship the Lord and are there to give their kids to the Lord should be encouraged to do so, and from there my philosophy was crafted into the idea that anyone truly seeking the Him should be allowed through the doors. We all come through the doors as sinners every day, and I don't want to be part of a congregation who would deny that. The messages we receive every Sunday make us better Christians and I truly believe that as humans we are sinners and no matter our sins, there will always be given grace through Jesus Christ if we are truly seeking it. In short, I'm a tolerant person and while I have tried to clarify the Bible's stance on all sexual perversion, specifically homosexuality, it is CLEAR that it is wrong, as Orko has stated. That doesn't mean that its unforgivable, but its written clearly, and in no uncertain terms, is not looked kindly upon by God.

The problem that I am currently having is that if you allow homosexuals to be married in the church, the church moves from being a forgiver of sins to an active participant in sinful behaviors. If a woman has an abortion it is wrong, but the church is there to offer God's grace to the sinner, but this would be like the church giving the woman a ride to the abortion clinic. For the church to move in this direction is alarming because it erodes much of its credibility as a purveyor of God's word.

In all honesty if this passes I'm not sure I can stay. I feel like this is a solution in search for a problem, and I can honestly say I don't understand why the church feels compelled to address this specific issue. I have some suspicions that they are trying to appeal to the younger, more liberal crowd, but that isn't how it works. The bible is specific on sin and generally illustrates the way we should live, and when we stray, we are forgiven. Thats why Jesus died. But what we can't do is rewrite God's word to make it more appealing for a new generation. As humans, we don't have that right.

I know there is plenty of debate to be had on this subject, and again, I'm so glad I have found this thread. I encourage this to be a place to respectfully debate this issue and I would love to read more of everyone's thoughts on the matter.
UTExan
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Agree with your points made here. The major problem I have is not really about homosexuals in the church but rather the degree to which the church supports and affirms homosexual acts without ever stopping to determine if such acts violate God's moral laws. And the bigger problem is about how the progressive church re-interprets God's Word to fit current cultural practices. Go to any annual conference considered progressive and you will get an earful of denunciations of evangelical Protestant Christianity without ever hearing a word about Catholic clergy sexual abuse, the persecuted church abroad or about the need to confess and repent of individual and corporate sin. It is a mirror of the ongoing struggle in larger society where liberals determine to fix a scapegoat for social problems .
wbt5845
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AG
Churches aren't museums for saints - they're hospitals for sinners. But hospitals DO NOT embrace and encourage the illness - they strive to heal it.

Yes, the adulterer and the abortionist and the tax cheat all commit sin just as those who commit homosexual acts do. But by embracing so called "gay marriage", you cross the line of accepting the sin.

I feel for you Methodists. I think Satan is working overtime to destroy your once proud church.
Seamaster
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It's sad to see but it's predictable.

Every single Protestant denomination goes through this. The orthodox will split and form a new denomination.

And that new denomination after a generation, or two, will start to split and splinter for the same reasons.

In other words, this splitting and dissolving is a feature of Protestantism. After all, that's how it all started.

The only option is the Holy Catholic Church and being in communion with the successors of the Apostles.

And, the Catholic Church needs faithful believers more than ever right now. If you have noticed a lot of those successors are wolves in sheeps clothing. But Christ also promised that this would happen. Just as Christ selected Judas who betrayed him, there are those that are still betraying him.

So consider making an effort to study and learn and pray about the claims of the Catholic Church especially if you are troubled by the failure of Protestantism.

Quad Dog
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Quote:

The problem that I am currently having is that if you allow homosexuals to be married in the church, the church moves from being a forgiver of sins to an active participant in sinful behaviors.
Do you hold a similar position if the church is holding a marriage for a heterosexual divorcee? Or a heterosexual couple that already have a child together? As far as I'm aware there is not difference between the church participating in those sins and participating in homosexual marriage.
UTExan
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Seamaster said:

It's sad to see but it's predictable.

Every single Protestant denomination goes through this. The orthodox will split and form a new denomination.

And that new denomination after a generation, or two, will start to split and splinter for the same reasons.

In other words, this splitting and dissolving is a feature of Protestantism. After all, that's how it all started.

The only option is the Holy Catholic Church and being in communion with the successors of the Apostles.

And, the Catholic Church needs faithful believers more than ever right now. If you have noticed a lot of those successors are wolves in sheeps clothing. But Christ also promised that this would happen. Just as Christ selected Judas who betrayed him, there are those that are still betraying him.

So consider making an effort to study and learn and pray about the claims of the Catholic Church especially if you are troubled by the failure of Protestantism.




Denominations often split over doctrine and the need to regenerate faith. OTOH, the instutional RCC has been an active participant in the torture, murder and sexual abuse of laity for centuries without being called to legal accountability. The RCC is not an option.
AGC
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AG
Quad Dog said:

Quote:

The problem that I am currently having is that if you allow homosexuals to be married in the church, the church moves from being a forgiver of sins to an active participant in sinful behaviors.
Do you hold a similar position if the church is holding a marriage for a heterosexual divorcee? Or a heterosexual couple that already have a child together? As far as I'm aware there is not difference between the church participating in those sins and participating in homosexual marriage.


That's likely because of your personal view of marriage. When a man and woman who live together get married, living together is no longer a sin (even if they had a child before). Getting married orders the relationship as it should be and the church gets to be a part of that redemption.

It cannot do the same for a homosexual couple. Their relationship cannot be rightly ordered even with marriage.
Quad Dog
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Fair enough, and what if it is a second marriage or any other number of things?
Orko
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Quad Dog said:

Quote:

The problem that I am currently having is that if you allow homosexuals to be married in the church, the church moves from being a forgiver of sins to an active participant in sinful behaviors.
Do you hold a similar position if the church is holding a marriage for a heterosexual divorcee? Or a heterosexual couple that already have a child together? As far as I'm aware there is not difference between the church participating in those sins and participating in homosexual marriage.
Absolutely yes to the first question. It is a sin and should not be tolerated, unless the initial marriages were dissolved due to sexual immorality.

In the second question, would I object to a couple who had a child out of wedlock getting married in a church? No, why would I. That is reconciling their sinful act to God in order to bring themselves back into communion with his church. That is a wonderful thing.

Homo "church" marriage isn't valid and never will be. THE AUTHORITY on this has already spoken. Your wife and you are merely seeking to infect an already ailing church with new illness. Shame on you. You both should be booted from your congregation.
Remember, patriot, what they took from you. Your nation's identity, its religion, and its people are no more. Remember how we got here.
AGC
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AG
Quad Dog said:

Fair enough, and what if it is a second marriage or any other number of things?


I assume that you're asserting a divorce for non-abuse and non-infidelity reasons by someone who remained in the church, else I don't think you'd object. That is a much harder issue because we have to gloss over a lot such as the church's role and counsel during that divorce, the role of the participant in that divorce (passive or actively attempting reconciliation and restoration), and a great many other variables to say. Some liturgical denominations would assert that divorce is a one time act and breaking of covenant rather than re-breaking every day, and that once a new covenant is established it's a moot point and permitted.

The fact that we're litigating other sins based on divorce is a great embarrassment to me and why we should never have accepted it as a nation or people in the first place.
Seamaster
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AG
"OTOH, the instutional RCC has been an active participant in the torture, murder and sexual abuse of laity for centuries without being called to legal accountability."

That's a pretty narrow view. It's a 2,000 + year old institution and you're comparing it to churches started in the 2000s or 1990's. Of course in the course of history there have been wolves in the sheep. Jesus promised as much.

If the Catholic Church is not an option because sinners exist within the church than no church is an option.



UTExan
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Seamaster said:

"OTOH, the instutional RCC has been an active participant in the torture, murder and sexual abuse of laity for centuries without being called to legal accountability."

That's a pretty narrow view. It's a 2,000 + year old institution and you're comparing it to churches started in the 2000s or 1990's. Of course in the course of history there have been wolves in the sheep. Jesus promised as much.

If the Catholic Church is not an option because sinners exist within the church than no church is an option.






In the same way that Esther did not consider Haman a confidant I cannot give the RCC consideration.
Seamaster
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AG
Then dont be surprised that all Protestant Churches become gradually heterodox.
 
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