Church - whatsit mean?

2,093 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by AgLiving06
Zobel
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AG
I've been thinking, you know, we talk about a lot of stuff and there is a lot of presuppositions that happen before any of our discussions. A lot of those presuppositions are inherited from the cultural milieu in which we live, and unfortunately they really can color our judgment of things we read. I'm generally talking about scripture, but its just as true for anything we read in antiquity - we really can't come to it clean slate.

When we see the word "church" in the bible, then, what is it that comes to mind? What should come to mind? I mean, it is a big question, right? Especially in the Reformation where the very concept of church itself was pulled under scrutiny. We have Christ making a promise about the Church, telling us about discipline in the Church. St Paul calls it the pillar and foundation of the truth. But what the heck is it?

For starters, the word means "assembly." The word church in the NT scripture is ekklesia which literally means "those called out". In secular antiquity it could apply to people assembled for a meeting (we see this use in Acts, where there is a riot in Ephesus over the silver idols of Artemis and the assembly, ekklesia, is referred to as all the people of the city gathered in the theater as well as those assembled as in court). In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the OT, it is sometimes used for the qahal Israel, the assembled people of God (for example in Judges 20:2 or Ezra 10:1 among many others). St Stephen uses the word to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness in Acts 7:38.

But, without fail in the scripture the idea of church is not a vague concept, but a specific group of people who are together. The word is used in the NT a little over 100 times, and a few are not referring to the church, but most are. And, when we examine how the word is used we can see a few basic types, and a few interesting things.

The church in the NT refers almost always to a single group of people. And, even more interesting, we can see that there is a rule of one church per city that is never violated. In the mind of the New Testament authors, then, there is a church in each city - only one. And collectively, they are referred to as the churches.

The first couple of uses are specifically about the church in Jerusalem. At this time there are no gentiles, and the whole church is formed around the city of Jerusalem. Later, St Paul enters the picture as a missionary and the church at Antioch is founded. Shortly we see the very specific phrase that St Paul chose elders in "every church", and if we read back a bit, we can see that he has visited the cities of Salamis, Paphos, Perga, Antioch of Pisida, Iconium, Lystra and Derbe.

Never, for example, do we see the Church of Syria, or the Church of Cilicia, or the Church of Judaea, or the Church of Asia. But instead, we see the churchES in Syria and Cilicia, the Church of Ephesus, the Church of God in Corinth, the church throughout Judaea or the Church which is IN Jerusalem, and so on. In 2 Corinthians, we see clearly "the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia".

The other phrase that comes up is "church in the house of..." This phrase is sometimes understood that there were multiple house churches in a city, but this is not correct. Every instance we see only one "church in the house of..." per city, and the others in the city are referred to as saints or by name only. For example at the end of Romans we learn that the church where St Paul was writing from (Corinth) was in the house of Gaius. We know that the church in Romans met at the house of Prisca and Aquila. Even in the largest city of Rome, there is no other house church mentioned. In Colossians 4 we see the brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and the Church at Nympha's house, and so on. So again, though there is a church in each city, it is only in one house. When St Paul persecuted the church in Jerusalem, he persecuted the Church singular, but he goes from house to house - not church to church. Similarly in Jerusalem, we see that they met in the temple courts, but broke bread from house to house - not broke bread in their houses. It is always singular. (As an interesting note, St Justin Martyr is asked where the Christians meet in Rome during his interrogation. The first time he avoids the question, saying instead that God is worshipped everywhere. The second time he is asked, he says "I live above one Martinus, at the Timiotinian Bath; and during the whole time - and I am now living in Rome for the second time - I am unaware of any other meeting than his." So we see this rule confirmed in 165 AD)

The final interesting thing we can see is that the church can be formed. This makes sense, given that the word means assembly, so the saints in Colossae, for example, are only the saints - until they come together as a church. And when does this happen? In 1 Corinthians 11 we get an insight. St Paul says you come together for the worse, continuing that when you come together as a church there are divisions. In the next paragraph we see something even more important - "Therefore, when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper." So coming together as a Church is eucharistic in nature. They were gathering but because they were doing it wrong they were not coming together in unity to Christ. And coming together wrong can result in judgment (11:34). In Acts 20 we see the same thing, that they came together to break bread.

This casts light on the first image we see of the Church in Acts 2:42 - they steadfastly continued in the teaching of the Apostles, and in the communion, and in the breaking of the bread, and in the prayers - and in 2:46 every day they came together in a house (singular) to break bread.

Finally, the individual churches are not deficient churches or only "fully" churches when they come together as "all the churches". Meaning there is only one church, but it is not comprised of all of the churches summed together. St Paul freely calls only the Church in Corinth "the Church of God" as well as only the Church in Jerusalem. In Thessalonians he refers to the "Churches of God" in Judaea. And there we get the clue - 1 Thess 2:14 says those Churches in Judaea are in Christ Jesus. So the Church is one as far as it is in Christ Jesus. Since there is "one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism" there is "One Church" which is "the body of Christ."

So - the NT Church is one Church in a city, and there are no regional churches. The churches meet in a specific house in that city or in one house at a time (as in Jerusalem) but only singular, one place at a time. The church is formed when the people come together, and when they form the Church they do so to partake of the Eucharist. And, when they do this, they participate in Christ Jesus and therefore become the One Church.

In other words, the Church is the formed Assembly of God's People in a particular place, come together to worship and sacrifice to Him - the Eucharistic Assembly. It is in this assembly, that each Church is the One Church of God through being in Christ Jesus.

I think these are the things we should think of when we see the word Church.
schmendeler
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AG
Boy I'm ready for football season.
Zobel
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AG
You and me both
AgLiving06
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There's a lot in here that I'm not touching with a 10 foot pole

However, to clarify, when you say "the NT Church is one Church in a city..." do you literally mean 1 location as in everyone in Houston should go to St Joseph or do you mean that all Churches in Houston should be the exact same?
Zobel
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AG
Up until around the third century it was literally one place. The bishop, and only the bishop, served as a type of Christ, offering the Eucharist with the presbyters around and with him, assisted by the deacons.

During the persecutions that followed around the 250s many bishops were martyred or exiled...or lapsed. It is possible that around the end of the third century the parishes as individual ecclesiastial Eucharistic assemblies around a presbyter rather than a Bishop serving with the council of presbyters arose... possibly out of pure necessity. St Cyprian's episcopate was without him for over a year, for example, and we know the presbyters offered the Eucharist in his absence. Same with Dionysius of Alexandria.

That or the fact that during the 200s it may have grown to where it became impractical or even impossible to have all the faithful in one place. In the 300s we see the rise of the parishes and by the 400s this is the norm across Christendom.
Pro Sandy
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AG
To help avoid confusion, I am very intentional to use Church and church differently when writing. I use Church as the body of Christ, all of us who are found in Christ of all time around the world. I use church to refer to a local body, such as the local body at First Presbyterian. I think when we talk of church discipline, that is seen in the bible as done through the local church, but when we talk of doing the work of Christ as the body, that is done by the Church at large.

As seen in my previous posts on this board, when I use Church, I am quite inclusive. Even in my interviews for church board positions, I am clear that I include Catholics and Protestants. That while churches have differences, we must be united as the Church, for we are all one in Christ and saved by the same One Lord through the same One faith. And may we all pray the same prayer as Jesus, that we may all be one, just as He and the Father are one.
Ulrich
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The important thing to remember is that my church is more legitimate than your church.
Zobel
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AG
That's exactly the kind of thinking that is not supported by scripture, for what it's worth. That kind of thinking about the Church is completely foreign to Christianity for centuries.

Sorry let me clarify. The church "at large" as in the sum of all the churches is not an idea found in early Christianity.
Pro Sandy
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

That's exactly the kind of thinking that is not supported by scripture, for what it's worth. That kind of thinking about the Church is completely foreign to Christianity for centuries.

Sorry let me clarify. The church "at large" as in the sum of all the churches is not an idea found in early Christianity.
Jesus tells Peter upon this rock I will build my ekklesia.

Jesus prays that we believers will be one.

Paul repeatedly talks about Christians collectively as the body of Christ.

You correctly show uses pointing to local bodies.

I think the scriptures support an understanding of church in a local understanding and Church as all believers. We also have historically declared "I believe in the holy catholic church" and didn't mean it as just our local church building.
Zobel
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AG
Yes, these are all in the scriptures. But none of those say that you arrive to the one church by adding up all believers in the world. For example, Christ Jesus says where two or three are, I am there. Even just two believers can constitute the Church. Because unity is not on our side, it is on His.

The idea that the Church is an abstract group of believers all over the world is simply not present in the Bible. Look at the universal epistles of St Peter. He does not call all Christians the Church. He titles them as God's elect, or those who received the faith. St Jude addresses those who have been called. The saints are scattered, but they do not collectively constitute the Church. You are describing the nation or the people of Christ - not the Church or assembly of Christ.

The Church in the New Testament is constituted only in physical assembly, particularly - and, I think, properly actually through Eucharistic assembly, where the unity with Christ is actualized.

But it isn't a sum, because that would imply that the Church at Corinth is not the One Church - being deficient somehow without including the Church of Jerusalem or Rome or wherever. St Paul doesn't address them this way. The Church at Corinth is the Church of God.

The contrast is the temple. There was one temple, but Christ rebuilt it in Himself - He is the temple. And then we become the temple, because the temple is where the Spirit of God, the presence of God is. So any two Christians who are assembled constitute the Church in completion, because there is Christ.

Catholic does not mean unity of complementarity, as in, the skeleton is universal because it has a full set of bones. Catholic means unity of quality. A man is the catholic or universal category, John Doe is the particular. Obviously you don't need all men to correctly point out that John Doe is actually a man according to the universality of "man". The Church is the same.
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

Up until around the third century it was literally one place. The bishop, and only the bishop, served as a type of Christ, offering the Eucharist with the presbyters around and with him, assisted by the deacons.

During the persecutions that followed around the 250s many bishops were martyred or exiled...or lapsed. It is possible that around the end of the third century the parishes as individual ecclesiastial Eucharistic assemblies around a presbyter rather than a Bishop serving with the council of presbyters arose... possibly out of pure necessity. St Cyprian's episcopate was without him for over a year, for example, and we know the presbyters offered the Eucharist in his absence. Same with Dionysius of Alexandria.

That or the fact that during the 200s it may have grown to where it became impractical or even impossible to have all the faithful in one place. In the 300s we see the rise of the parishes and by the 400s this is the norm across Christendom.

But would that even be feasible or practical today?

Lets take Houston. I'm in the Meyerland area and my parents are in Kingwood. That's roughly 50 miles transit each way, yet it's all "Houston."

My guess is in the era you are talking about, each would be it's own "city" with 1-2 more in between simply because a 50 mile journey was going to take multiple days on land.
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

That's exactly the kind of thinking that is not supported by scripture, for what it's worth. That kind of thinking about the Church is completely foreign to Christianity for centuries.

Sorry let me clarify. The church "at large" as in the sum of all the churches is not an idea found in early Christianity.

The problem is that scripture does not support any church body today in their current form.

So if we get to literally about "what scriptures say" Christianity as a whole has failed.
Zobel
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AG
Yes, each city but cities weren't as much these sprawling things as now. As some examples to this point, in Acts we see that there was not a church in Caesarea, St Paul landed there and went up to a Jerusalem to greet the church before heading to the church at Antioch. On the other hand, in Romans 16 St Paul mentions Phoebe, a deaconess of the church in Cenchreae which is not too far from Corinth.

I think you're generally right, but we don't see any churches at all other than the one in Jerusalem around Jerusalem. And this was pretty normal for the Jews - they regularly went up to Jerusalem because there was only one temple. There was a distinction between a synagogue (the place of teaching) and the temple (the place of sacrifice and where God dwelled). The Church is the latter, when the believers who are temples constitute the new temple of Christ's body by coming together in Christ.

We do know that one of the early functions of the presbyters was to teach the faithful, and it is likely there were presbyters serving a kind of synagogue-like group in the smaller villages. But, for example, there was only one church in Rome for centuries. We don't have any records of a parish around Rome until around 300, and we know that there was only one meeting for the Eucharist up through St Justin's time. The whole setting up of two churches in one city was the entire point of contention between Novatian and the Church at Rome, it's what St Cyprian was arguing against in De Unitate.

In the second century in some places there was a kind of predecessor to the metropolitan and parish system with a chorepiscopus - a rural bishop who was attached to the local church. This rural bishop was very similar to a modern parish priest, as they could offer the Eucharist.

But there weren't small parishes in each town like there are today. And certainly each small town did not celebrate the Eucharist by themselves without a bishop. We can see this evidence in the writing of the ante-Nicene fathers. Originally only the bishop could offer the Eucharist, and the presbyters offered with him. By the 300s the presbyters were offering the Eucharist, probably from a combination of necessity and practicality.
Zobel
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AG
I don't agree with this at all. The ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church is still fundamentally in line with what I am describing here. It is the reason the Orthodox Church does not agree with the Roman Church - their view of catholicity is primarily a unity through oneness with Rome. Our concept of catholicity is one of quality and the whole One church is constituted by a single bishop and his flock.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Ulrich said:

The important thing to remember is that my church is more legitimate than your church.

/thread
Zobel
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AG
Such a pointless thing to say. Should we not study the scriptures? Should we not aim to understand what they say? Should we ignore what is at variance?

What's funny to me is I didn't say a word about my church in the OP. Legitimacy or not is an indictment I did not make. I just talked strictly about what is in the NT.
Zobel
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AG
There is something interesting to me that while the Lutherans abolished the episcopate and with it the essential theology that supprted the early church ecclesiology - replacing it with their own ecclesiology of the invisible church - their structure is in some ways similar to the early church. The priest does what the bishop did, though the presbyters or elders do not and the diaconate is not the same. But similar.
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

I don't agree with this at all. The ecclesiology of the Orthodox Church is still fundamentally in line with what I am describing here. It is the reason the Orthodox Church does not agree with the Roman Church - their view of catholicity is primarily a unity through oneness with Rome. Our concept of catholicity is one of quality and the whole One church is constituted by a single bishop and his flock.

It all really depends on how deeply you want to go and how strict you want to hold to scripture.

The Bible doesn't hold any standard for having a Patriarch (let alone adding them after the fact).

Maybe you can get there with a Bishop if you equate that to Apostles, but that's kind of a stretch to.

But if we look at the Paul/Timothy relationship, you essentially have one guy teaching the local Priest/Father/Pastor etc. Not the layers of Patriarch, Metropolitan, Bishop, Father, etc.

This is before we would even have to discuss the fact that within Houston alone, we have Western/Eastern Rite and Russian, Greek, Antiochian, OCA, etc all within 20-30 miles of each other.


But even as you note, the Orthodox are "fundamental in line" which is very different from saying they are exactly what Scriptures says. So leeway is acceptable and absolutely necessary for this world.

Zobel
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AG
The Orthodox Church recognizes only a threefold clergy. A metropolitan is simply a bishop and has no ecclesial authority that any other bishop has. Just like an archpriest and a priest are identical in office, and differ only in seniority. All of the offices you mention are simply administrative and are in no way ecclesial. The Church is One and is formed by the bishop (singular) and his flock (the laity in one place). I think you misunderstand the ecclesiology.

St Paul is teaching St Timothy as one bishop to another, the relationship of a spiritual father to spiritual son. But when St Timothy and his flock came together, he presided as bishop in the one church of God, just as St Paul or any Apostle or any Bishop would.

I agree that there is a clear problem in the United States of jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church, but this is a human failing, not a failing of ecclesiology. Does that make sense? In other words, the theology is there, but we are doing it wrong. Clearly.

Pastoral economy is necessary, of course. "The sabbath is made for man and not man for the sabbath." But there is a difference between an implementation that is identical in theology and expression, and a completely different theology leading to a different expression. The theology of the Orthodox Church in ecclesiology - what constitutes the church, what catholic means, what the role of the laity and clergy are - is completely and totally in line with that of the Apostolic Church.
Athanasius
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AG
Your posting is so awesome.

You know you could make money off of this type of thing, right?
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

The Orthodox Church recognizes only a threefold clergy. A metropolitan is simply a bishop and has no ecclesial authority that any other bishop has. Just like an archpriest and a priest are identical in office, and differ only in seniority. All of the offices you mention are simply administrative and are in no way ecclesial. The Church is One and is formed by the bishop (singular) and his flock (the laity in one place). I think you misunderstand the ecclesiology.

St Paul is teaching St Timothy as one bishop to another, the relationship of a spiritual father to spiritual son. But when St Timothy and his flock came together, he presided as bishop in the one church of God, just as St Paul or any Apostle or any Bishop would.

I agree that there is a clear problem in the United States of jurisdiction in the Orthodox Church, but this is a human failing, not a failing of ecclesiology. Does that make sense? In other words, the theology is there, but we are doing it wrong. Clearly.

Pastoral economy is necessary, of course. "The sabbath is made for man and not man for the sabbath." But there is a difference between an implementation that is identical in theology and expression, and a completely different theology leading to a different expression. The theology of the Orthodox Church in ecclesiology - what constitutes the church, what catholic means, what the role of the laity and clergy are - is completely and totally in line with that of the Apostolic Church.

I wasn't attempting to dive into the ecclesiology.

All the discussion I have had on here has simply been around the concept of mimicking the structure that appears in the scriptures as it relates to churches within Houston and the structure within the Orthodox. I was simply pointing out that even the Orthodox have had to make adjustments vs the strictest sense.

For ecclesiology, I'll continue to defer to Jordan Cooper:

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/6/f/b/6fb941fafa5f7d7d/Church_Polity.mp3?c_id=18513019&cs_id=18513019&expiration=1534358757&hwt=a312858d2d2c638ff3dec36b8e2235cf
Zobel
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AG
Mimicking the structure is by definition ecclesiology.

I agree that the state of affairs in the US as a whole is not right. To say it's not ideal is too weak - it isn't canonical. There should be no overlapping episcopates. I don't think many people would disagree, among the Orthodox.

That being said, it doesn't change the fact that when a group of believers comes together in one place, as the church, to celebrate the Eucharist in Christ, with the bishop or one to whom he has entrusted (as St Ignatius said), that constitutes the One Church in Christ. This is the New Testament meaning of the word ekklesia.

In other words you can't have an assembly without assembling.
Zobel
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AG
Feel free to take my posts and commercialize them. There's nothing original in them anyway.
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

Mimicking the structure is by definition ecclesiology.

That being said, it doesn't change the fact that when a group of believers comes together in one place, as the church, to celebrate the Eucharist in Christ, with the bishop or one to whom he has entrusted (as St Ignatius said), that constitutes the One Church in Christ. This is the New Testament meaning of the word ekklesia.

In other words you can't have an assembly without assembling.

I agree with nearly everything you say here.

The one hesitation is around the "with the bishop or one to whom he has entrusted"...I'm not sure where you are going with this.

Zobel
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AG
It's a direct quote from St Ignatius' of Antioch's Epistle to the Smyrneans.
Quote:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
The rule of the early church as witnessed unanimously by every source we have is that the bishop - the president of the presbyters, the leader of the assembly - had the right to offer the Eucharist. From St Hippolytus to St Justin to St Ignatius this is the same. We never see the idea of the presbyters offering the Eucharist apart from the bishop - or setting up a separate assembly. This is actually what is said is not acceptable by St Clement.

In other words, the presumption is that in a normal course of events, the bishop offered the Eucharist. If he could not, like when St Cyprian was exiled for a long time, he could of course appoint someone else to this task (i.e., another presbyter).
AgLiving06
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Oh. That makes sense.
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