The great apostasy is so obvious that only the willfully blind can not see it. Martin Luther saw first hand how corrupt the Catholic church had become in his day. He tried at first to reform it as he had no intention of starting another church. You can see today the great wickedness that exists today among the so called priesthood. I notice that the United Methodist's have removed "Father" as a reference to God. There are so many examples that can be cited.
Are Mormons Christians?
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Last: 5 yr ago by BlackGoldAg2011
Are you suggesting that I am willfully blind? Intentional?
diamond4 said:
The great apostasy is so obvious that only the willfully blind can not see it. Martin Luther saw first hand how corrupt the Catholic church had become in his day. He tried at first to reform it as he had no intention of starting another church. You can see today the great wickedness that exists today among the so called priesthood. I notice that the United Methodist's have removed "Father" as a reference to God. There are so many examples that can be cited.
Martin Luther condemned the Anabaptists as heretically largely due to their belief that they had prophets that could speak beyond the Bible. What do you think he'd say about Mormons who quite literally created a new book?
Bob - If you're going to point to sinners and say that indicates an apostasy, you might want to be careful. Your first leader married 13 year olds and other men's wives. Something, something, glass houses.diamond4 said:
The great apostasy is so obvious that only the willfully blind can not see it. Martin Luther saw first hand how corrupt the Catholic church had become in his day. He tried at first to reform it as he had no intention of starting another church. You can see today the great wickedness that exists today among the so called priesthood. I notice that the United Methodist's have removed "Father" as a reference to God. There are so many examples that can be cited.
Rab, you should learn the difference between being "sealed' and being married.
Is there sex involved?
Why were the married women not "sealed" to their own husbands?
Because then their Prophet would have had a lot more explaining to do...
Its good to see that you're still OK with his abuse of power with young girls other men's wives.diamond4 said:
Rab, you should learn the difference between being "sealed' and being married.
Diamond - I do have a honest question.
You said that when the missionaries were teaching you, it felt as if you had been asleep during the "classes" you took.
Can you give a good example of something they taught you that met this criteria?
You said that when the missionaries were teaching you, it felt as if you had been asleep during the "classes" you took.
Can you give a good example of something they taught you that met this criteria?
diamond4 said:
Rab, you should learn the difference between being "sealed' and being married.
Hi Diamond, welcome back to R&P. I don't know much about Mormonism. Could you explain this post and the difference?
My favorite part of r&p is learning about the different perspectives of other denominations and religions, so I appreciate your willingness to share despite possible hostile responses
AgLiving06 you asked a fair question. Here is the answer.
The first thing that jumped out to me and my friend was when they explained to us that there is no such thing as a death bed confession. We verbally jumped on them because they obviously were not aware of the thief on the cross. We understood that when Christ told him that this day he would be with Him in Paradise that He meant heaven. Not so the missionaries explained for when Mary went looking for where Christ's body had been taken she rushed up to the figure after she recognized it was the Savior. She tried to embrace Him but as recorded in John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her "touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father; but go to my brethern, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God."
The first question that has to be asked is if Christ and the thief were to be together that very day yet after 3 days and nights Christ still had not ascended to His Father (in heaven) were had He been?
The second question that might be asked who is the God that Jesus claims is His as Well as ours if He and His Father were one and the same (which they are not).
In 1 Peter we learn that Christ upon His death visited the spirit world! In chapter 3 verse18-19 : "for Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which ALSO he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
But why would He do this? In chapter 4 verse 6 we learn "for this cause was the gospel preached ALSO to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
We learned that the spirits of all men after the briefest return to our Father in heaven we are then consigned to paradise or spirit prison. Christ organized His Church in the spirit world as He did on earth with the prophets of old presiding. Everyone who ever lived will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept or reject it!
I had never connected the scriptures together in that manner. Our mouths were gaping open for it made perfect sense! The Gospel is being preached both in Paradise and spirit prison.
The first thing that jumped out to me and my friend was when they explained to us that there is no such thing as a death bed confession. We verbally jumped on them because they obviously were not aware of the thief on the cross. We understood that when Christ told him that this day he would be with Him in Paradise that He meant heaven. Not so the missionaries explained for when Mary went looking for where Christ's body had been taken she rushed up to the figure after she recognized it was the Savior. She tried to embrace Him but as recorded in John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her "touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto my Father; but go to my brethern, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God and your God."
The first question that has to be asked is if Christ and the thief were to be together that very day yet after 3 days and nights Christ still had not ascended to His Father (in heaven) were had He been?
The second question that might be asked who is the God that Jesus claims is His as Well as ours if He and His Father were one and the same (which they are not).
In 1 Peter we learn that Christ upon His death visited the spirit world! In chapter 3 verse18-19 : "for Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which ALSO he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
But why would He do this? In chapter 4 verse 6 we learn "for this cause was the gospel preached ALSO to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
We learned that the spirits of all men after the briefest return to our Father in heaven we are then consigned to paradise or spirit prison. Christ organized His Church in the spirit world as He did on earth with the prophets of old presiding. Everyone who ever lived will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept or reject it!
I had never connected the scriptures together in that manner. Our mouths were gaping open for it made perfect sense! The Gospel is being preached both in Paradise and spirit prison.
The teaching that Christ harrowed hades is quite old and is taught in the Orthodox Church. Our icon of the resurrection reflects this reality, as do our prayers during Pascha and our resurrection hymns.
The Church in heaven, in paradise, is the same as the Church in earth. When we worship on earth we worship with the Church in heaven, because the Church is one. There is no "spirit" Church. There is just one Church, and we participate in the one Church here as a foretaste of the coming kingdom.
As for the penitent thief, this too is a basic teaching during the Paschal services. Our Paschal troparion which is sung during the feast says - "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God: in Paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Inexpressible."
The Church in heaven, in paradise, is the same as the Church in earth. When we worship on earth we worship with the Church in heaven, because the Church is one. There is no "spirit" Church. There is just one Church, and we participate in the one Church here as a foretaste of the coming kingdom.
As for the penitent thief, this too is a basic teaching during the Paschal services. Our Paschal troparion which is sung during the feast says - "In the grave bodily, but in hades with Thy soul as God: in Paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Inexpressible."
I'm with you on a lot of it, but I'm not sure I understand this:
From what you've said and quoted, I can't get there on this one.
What you've posted doesn't seem to support this statement.
What I think you posted (at least) seems to actually support the Catholic view of purgatory (separated from the Father) before being reunited with Him.
Yet you seem to be saying the opposite?
Quote:
We learned that the spirits of all men after the briefest return to our Father in heaven we are then consigned to paradise or spirit prison. Christ organized His Church in the spirit world as He did on earth with the prophets of old presiding. Everyone who ever lived will have the opportunity to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accept or reject it!
From what you've said and quoted, I can't get there on this one.
What you've posted doesn't seem to support this statement.
What I think you posted (at least) seems to actually support the Catholic view of purgatory (separated from the Father) before being reunited with Him.
Yet you seem to be saying the opposite?
The Church in Heaven is not Paradise. Even Paradise is to a certain degree a prison because we have not yet been resurrected with our glorified, indestructible bodies. There are three heavens and the 2nd resurrection is the party that you do not want to be invited to!!
See? It's just ancient Gnosticism.
k2aggie07 said:
See? It's just ancient Gnosticism.
Can you expand more on this? I'm not familiar with this?
Whenever you start hearing people talk about three heavens and multiple resurrections and weird names not found in the scriptures, look out!
Read Book I of St Irenaeus' Against Heresies. Book I chapter 21, maybe 24, a little Marcion in 27, plurality of wives in 28. Book II Ch 28 and 29 really address these extra-scriptural speculative doctrines about death quite well.
Book III really brings it home, with regard to the flat rejection of secret teachings that only later became known or "rediscovered".
Skimming through, even some of this reminds me of Marcus - heretic who used his "secret wisdom" to lure away and defile women.
I believe St Epiphanius' Panarion describes Marcionites as baptizing the dead (a practice which is canonically forbidden in the Church, along with giving them the Eucharist).
The Panarion also talks about Fie teaching multiple heavens, as did Ingenerate, Basilides, Flesiod, and Valentinian.
Read Book I of St Irenaeus' Against Heresies. Book I chapter 21, maybe 24, a little Marcion in 27, plurality of wives in 28. Book II Ch 28 and 29 really address these extra-scriptural speculative doctrines about death quite well.
Book III really brings it home, with regard to the flat rejection of secret teachings that only later became known or "rediscovered".
Skimming through, even some of this reminds me of Marcus - heretic who used his "secret wisdom" to lure away and defile women.
I believe St Epiphanius' Panarion describes Marcionites as baptizing the dead (a practice which is canonically forbidden in the Church, along with giving them the Eucharist).
The Panarion also talks about Fie teaching multiple heavens, as did Ingenerate, Basilides, Flesiod, and Valentinian.
Well, I just wasted half of my morning on wikipedia.
Thanks for that
Thanks for that
The spirit world is divided into two spheres -paradise and spirit prison. It is on this earth. The Indians reffered to it as the land of shadows.There all will remain until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when those in paradise will be resurrected (the resurrection of the just) After the 1,000 year millennial reign is the 2nd Resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) and then the final judgement.
what's the difference between sealed and married?
does this practice still exist? why/why not?
does this practice still exist? why/why not?
diamond4 said:
The spirit world is divided into two spheres -paradise and spirit prison. It is on this earth. The Indians reffered to it as the land of shadows.There all will remain until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when those in paradise will be resurrected (the resurrection of the just) After the 1,000 year millennial reign is the 2nd Resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) and then the final judgement.
Wait..why are you referring to Indians now?
Oh man, you need to research the book of mormon.AgLiving06 said:diamond4 said:
The spirit world is divided into two spheres -paradise and spirit prison. It is on this earth. The Indians reffered to it as the land of shadows.There all will remain until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when those in paradise will be resurrected (the resurrection of the just) After the 1,000 year millennial reign is the 2nd Resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) and then the final judgement.
Wait..why are you referring to Indians now?
powerbelly said:Oh man, you need to research the book of mormon.AgLiving06 said:diamond4 said:
The spirit world is divided into two spheres -paradise and spirit prison. It is on this earth. The Indians reffered to it as the land of shadows.There all will remain until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when those in paradise will be resurrected (the resurrection of the just) After the 1,000 year millennial reign is the 2nd Resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) and then the final judgement.
Wait..why are you referring to Indians now?
I'm aware (though that's the extent to which I know anything) that the Book of Mormon talks about an Indian tribe that hasn't been discovered yet, but so far I've assumed Diamond was explaining how the missionaries explained the Bible to him in a manner that woke up him.
But I guess I'm more concerned if the only way that they could explain the Bible was to introduce the Book of Mormon. As a Christian that would certainly have caused me to pause.
I'm assuming I just misunderstood him.
Wait till you hear the Garden of Eden is in Missouri!AgLiving06 said:diamond4 said:
The spirit world is divided into two spheres -paradise and spirit prison. It is on this earth. The Indians reffered to it as the land of shadows.There all will remain until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when those in paradise will be resurrected (the resurrection of the just) After the 1,000 year millennial reign is the 2nd Resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) and then the final judgement.
Wait..why are you referring to Indians now?
Not kidding......
The Book of Mormon is a 2nd witness for the Divinity of Jesus Chris and the Bible. It was given to us to prove the Bible is true and not the other way around. Out of the mouths of 2 or more witnesses will every religious truth be established!
It is well known how the Indians viewed the spirit world.
It is well known how the Indians viewed the spirit world.
It is well known by whom? And which Indians? That's a pretty broad group of people and cultures.
Also since when do we take our spiritual cues from pagan cultures?
And wait wait wait. The Book of Mormon is required to ratify or make the Bible trustworthy?
Also since when do we take our spiritual cues from pagan cultures?
And wait wait wait. The Book of Mormon is required to ratify or make the Bible trustworthy?
And if it is not too much of a bother diamond, why were married woman sealed to Joseph Smith and not to their husbands?swimmerbabe11 said:
what's the difference between sealed and married?
does this practice still exist? why/why not?
The other stuff yea. But a "third" heaven was just what we call heaven right now, as opposed to the heavens referring to the stars and such.k2aggie07 said:
Whenever you start hearing people talk about three heavens and multiple resurrections and weird names not found in the scriptures, look out!
for instance paul writes:
"I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heavenwhether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a personwhether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knowswas caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."
I agree, but the ancient distinction is a quasi-scientific one. I mean, they were making a distinction between the physical skies above and a heavenly realm, even if the general consensus was that one surrounded the other.
Somehow I don't think this is what the Mormons are teaching, especially considering the idea of the heavenly spheres was long, long dead before Mormonism was begun.
Somehow I don't think this is what the Mormons are teaching, especially considering the idea of the heavenly spheres was long, long dead before Mormonism was begun.
diamond4 said:
The Book of Mormon is a 2nd witness for the Divinity of Jesus Chris and the Bible. It was given to us to prove the Bible is true and not the other way around. Out of the mouths of 2 or more witnesses will every religious truth be established!
It is well known how the Indians viewed the spirit world.
So when the missionaries came and woke you up, they used the Book of Mormon to explain the Bible to you?
I think you know that answer.
Welcome back Bob. Many an hour spent arguing with you in the past, but glad to know that you are still out there fighting the fight....diamond4 said:
I will be at the first 3 home games this year. So "gig 'em till they cry1
I had a Mormon elder over a few times after having 2 of their traveling evangelists over for some discussion to learn more about their church. When I started debating with them they asked if they could bring an elder over the next day, which I did.powerbelly said:Once he learned he could be god of his own planet he was all in.AgLiving06 said:k2aggie07 said:
I'm guessing he means semester credit hours.
I mean, I guess that helps him out a bit...
I'd actually be really curious to hear what groundbreaking information he learned from the missionaries that he wouldn't have learned in a solid "Intro to Christianity."
I'm wondering how many of the Ecumenical Councils came up?
There was a few hours of discussion and debate but the one thing that really stuck with me, was when I asked the elder, "Do you really believe that you can go to heaven and get your own planet to rule over?" He said "you have much more to learn before we can discuss anything like that." But his look was one of almost a wink and a "yes and it will be awesome" kind of gesture.
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