I thought about putting this on the politics board, but that would be like taking a flamethrower to a gas station.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/children-are-being-euthanized-in-belgium/2018/08/06/9473bac2-9988-11e8-b60b-1c897f17e185_story.html?utm_term=.618d8b37b0ed&wpisrc=nl_ideas&wpmm=1

Belgium has very liberal euthanasia laws, which have now been extended to kids as young as 11, and to patients with mental illness (possibly without thier consent)

I do feel like adults should be able to end thier lives if they choose, but I've always been uncomfortable with doctors helping. Seems to go against the whole do no harm thing.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/stories-45117163

Here's one that really made my stomach turn. Physically healthy 29 year old euthanized due to depression. Her doctors refused to approve the procedure, so she had to go to the End of Life clinic. That's apparently a rubber stamp clinic for people that can't get other medical approval.

I hate the idea of assisted suicide and would never participate. I can see the appeal in terminal cases with constantly unrelievable suffering, but I think we can all see what a slippery slope this is.

I also very much agree that doctors shouldn't be doing this. Doctors exist to help not hurt. Having doctors performs these is just an attempt to borrow the credibility of the medical profession to validate an at best very controversial non-medical practice. If you're going to do it, then train someone for a few months and have that be their job. You don't need decades of education and experiece to put in an IV and push a syringe

Very scary and sad. As someone who is married to someone who suffers from depression and has had suicidal thoughts, this is scary what access to a place like this could have done to her in a down time. Not only do they offer a way to kill yourself, the tell you it's OK and the right thing to do for depression.

I am very much in favor of the option of euthaniasia for someone in their later years who is slowly dying of something horrible and painful and debilitating.

I am also very much in favor of not permitting an 11 year old to sign away their life and to let a doctor kill the child.

There is a lot of ground in the middle and I'm not sure how / where I draw that line. I'd like this thread to get some love - it's an interesting one. Maybe if I somehow make it about gays or sexual deviance. . . .

kurt vonnegut said:

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Maybe if I somehow make it about gays or sexual deviance. . . .

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Im sure you could find someone on here that would be in favor of euthanasia in those cases...

kurt vonnegut said:

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I am very much in favor of the option of euthaniasia for someone in their later years who is slowly dying of something horrible and painful and debilitating.

I am also very much in favor of not permitting an 11 year old to sign away their life and to let a doctor kill the child.

There is a lot of ground in the middle and I'm not sure how / where I draw that line. I'd like this thread to get some love - it's an interesting one. Maybe if I somehow make it about gays or sexual deviance. . . .

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I'm with you there. I very much support people being able to go out in their own terms particularly if suffering. I'm also a huge proponent of individual liberty and choosing your own path even though some choose a different one from me.

I'm very hesitant about younger people in a bad spot in their life choosing to off themselves. Maybe the assisted policy should really have severe limitations to those in significant suffering and but even that provides huge definitional barriers. I guess they always have the option of doing it themselves if industry won't. I'd rather side on too much restriction in this case than too little I suppose and that's not typical for me.

I think the debate here is over who can give rational consent. (Although on this board I would expect some debate on the concept of euthanasia in general)

I've got a 10 year old kid. I just don't see how a 10,11,12 year old could possibly make this choice in an acceptable sense.

Even at 17 it would be tough. In fact the 17 year old from the article stood out the most to me. He had DMD, which is an awful disease. It's also one with 3 different ongoing gene therapy trials. I've seen the data. The treatment works. Now, it's years away from being approved, and maybe this guy was too far gone but that one kind of hit me.

If you're going to have end-of-life euthanasia, then I don't see how you can exclude children. Kids suffer and die from horrible diseases just like adults. If society decides that death is a mercy to end suffering, then it would be extra cruel to deny that death to children.

The mental illness cases blow my mind. People who want to commit suicide are by definition depressed, and mentally ill people can't make the rational, informed free choice to commit suicide. Not to mention that mental illness can be treated. Imagine if our suicide hotlines gave instructions instead of offering help.

The only way I can wrap my head around it is by going in for the most possible extreme form of moral relativism. Where each person's perception of reality is to be endorsed and supported without any judgement whatsoever. So when someone says they'd be better off dead, then you're stuck thinking of them as someone whose views need to be supported and validated instead of someone who needs to change

I'm in favor of this for physical conditions with no hope for recovery. I'm not in favor of it in cases like depression. I think to help a depressed person die is to crap all over the Hippocratic oath. But I reject the notion that you must be depressed to be ready to die in the face of a terminal disease. It simply isn't true.

The most practical solution is to outlaw assisted suicide. Way too many loop holes for something awful to happen.

I think I am also in the minority on this one, but in the opposite direction.

I think this should never be legal; under any circumstances.

I understand that there are grey areas and where do you cross the line between palliative care and assisted suicide. Just a few more grams of morphine?

I can understand courts taking particular circumstances into account when enforcing any penalties, but we should never have legislation indicating any legality of "assisted suicide".

Wherever that line is drawn, there will be some organization advocating for expanding it.

Keep it illegal and let the courts adjudicate the "special" cases.

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I can't think of any reasons why that should be the case. People should be able to make choices about their own lives, even if others don't agree or understand why they'd make that choice. The government shouldn't be in the business of protecting people from themselves. You're in charge of your own life, not the government.

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So you think people should be allowed to kill themselves at any time for any reason, and we should not try to intervene?

ramblin_ag02 said:

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/stories-45117163

Here's one that really made my stomach turn. Physically healthy 29 year old euthanized due to depression. Her doctors refused to approve the procedure, so she had to go to the End of Life clinic. That's apparently a rubber stamp clinic for people that can't get other medical approval.

I hate the idea of assisted suicide and would never participate. I can see the appeal in terminal cases with constantly unrelievable suffering, but I think we can all see what a slippery slope this is.

I also very much agree that doctors shouldn't be doing this. Doctors exist to help not hurt. Having doctors performs these is just an attempt to borrow the credibility of the medical profession to validate an at best very controversial non-medical practice. If you're going to do it, then train someone for a few months and have that be their job. You don't need decades of education and experiece to put in an IV and push a syringe

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My goodness I thought this was going to be some exaggeration but boy was I wrong.

I find this practice deplorable. And I think elderly terminally ill people who have been suffering should have the right to be euthanized. But this is just nauseating. A physically healthy person whose greatest need is mental health treatment.

And yeah like Pro Sandy said, it gives the impression to society that this is an acceptable response to depression. I also think it violates the Hippocratic Oath.

Dad-O-Lot said:

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I do feel like adults should be able to end thier lives if they choose, but I've always been uncomfortable with doctors helping. Seems to go against the whole do no harm thing.

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I am very much in favor of the option of euthaniasia for someone in their later years who is slowly dying of something horrible and painful and debilitating.

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I am also very much in favor of not permitting an 11 year old to sign away their life and to let a doctor kill the child.

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There is a lot of ground in the middle and I'm not sure how / where I draw that line.

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I very much support people being able to go out in their own terms particularly if suffering.

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I'm very hesitant about younger people in a bad spot in their life choosing to off themselves.

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Maybe the assisted policy should really have severe limitations to those in significant suffering and but even that provides huge definitional barriers.

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I think the debate here is over who can give rational consent.

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If you're going to have end-of-life euthanasia, then I don't see how you can exclude children. Kids suffer and die from horrible diseases just like adults. If society decides that death is a mercy to end suffering, then it would be extra cruel to deny that death to children.

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I'm in favor of this for physical conditions with no hope for recovery. I'm not in favor of it in cases like depression.

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It is obvious to me from just a few posts in this thread how wrought with issues and pitfalls this subject is.

How does one define and ensure "consent"

How is "suffering" measured and proven?

Is there any kind of objective measure or scale for "suffering"

What exactly is meant by "terminal"

What starts out as "protection", will later be termed a "barrier" and some organization will try to eliminate that "barrier".

We have greater ability to reduce and minimize pain and suffering than ever before in the history of humanity. Palliative care has greatly progressed. It seems ironic to me that now, with the pain relieving capability we have, euthanasia is making such a push in society.

Economic arguments will be made. These only make the issue worse. "I don't want to be a financial burden" could become an accepted reason for allowing euthanasia. Many people who would typically be a champion of the poor, will close their eyes to how this attitude will result in the poor being pressured to accept suicide instead of palliative or even life-saving care.

Assisted suicide is a pandora's box that we should have kept closed.

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Amen

AstroAg17 said:

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ramblin_ag02 said:

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So you think people should be allowed to kill themselves at any time for any reason, and we should not try to intervene?

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I don't see complete control over one's life as something that has to be allowed or justified. For me, a person's control over their body is the default and limits on that freedom are what require justification. Justifications I find compelling involve violations of the independence of others. No such justification exist for suicides (although I think the case that parents have a responsibility to provide for their children is compelling). I think we should try to convince people not to make choices we think are bad for them. That could be drugs, or elective surgery, or suicide. If someone wants to make a bad decision, they should be allowed to as long as they aren't interfering with the rights or freedoms of others. Even if that decision is the worst decision possible.

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Just curious, do you think deprivation of a child's autonomy by parental figures is justifiable?

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I think the question of whether depression is enough to deprive a person of their freedom of choice is an interesting one, but I lean towards no. A depressed person understands the decision their making, especially the fact that they'll die. The part of the decision they may not understand is the opportunity cost of the life they're giving up.

Many people treat suicidality as a mental illness, but it's not and it shouldn't be considered one. Many mental illnesses might contribute to suicidality, but the assumption of illness based on a choice is a travesty.

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I disagree for 2 reasons. First, the desire for self harm is almost always transient. Nearly every single person who wants to commit suicide will feel very much differently in a relatively short amount of time. So it ends up being a permanent "solution" to a temporary problem. The desire for suicide may come and go, but I've never heard of anyone being constantly suicidal every minute of every day for years at a time. So while someone may have several hospitalizations for depression and multiple suicide attempts over the course of decades, they aren't suicidal every moment of those decades. So to me it doesn't make sense to let someone make a permanent decision over a temporary inclination.

Secondly, I think we shouldn't pretend that the only person affected by suicide is the person committing suicide. Most people have friends and family that care about them. Unexpected death in general can cause tremendous amounts of grief for loved ones, and suicide can be even worse. Suicide of a child may ruin their parent's marriage, cause a parent to commit suicide, or sometimes even cause them to die of a broken heart (Takotsubo disease). Someone has to find the body and endure that trauma. Someone has to endure the lifelong guilt of wondering what they could have done differently. Sometimes people may be directly or indirectly assisting. Suicide by cop for instance, or someone intentionally crashing a car you just got them. Anyone involved is going to have to deal with that as well. And that's if no one gets sued. Psychiatrists, hospitals, and drug companies get sued all the time when their patients commit suicide and lives can be drastically affected. In other words, it's not just about them. This isn't a decision made in a vaccuum under the ideal of rational self determination.

I can see both sides of the general argument so don't have much to contribute on that, but just read that article about the 29 year old, and as a father, that story just made me weep, especially when i made it to the picture of here as a young girl.