Wycliffe_03 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Most of the water wouldn't have been safe to drink until it fermented. You can take truly disgusting water and have it reasonably clean after fermentation happens. If you drink it too early, disease city. Though to be fair, the alcohol content of most ancient beers and wines was typically lower than ours.

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I guess what I'm saying is, depending on the time of year back then, wouldn't they have been drinking fresh organic grape juice during communion? If the fruit of the vine hadn't had a chance to ferment yet? I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine. Even their typical fermented wine wasn't soecifically designed to be 13-14% abv like ours. I don't think we should be getting hung up on grape juice vs wine. And I love a good cab or Malbec.

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wine starts to ferment immediately from the yeast on the outside of the grapes themselves. unless they had a local juice stand squeezing grapes on demand (doubtful), it's reasonable to assume that there was going to be at minimum low-level alcohol content at all times. they didn't have refrigeration or utilize pasteurization to prevent fermentation.

schmendeler said:

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Wycliffe_03 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Most of the water wouldn't have been safe to drink until it fermented. You can take truly disgusting water and have it reasonably clean after fermentation happens. If you drink it too early, disease city. Though to be fair, the alcohol content of most ancient beers and wines was typically lower than ours.

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I guess what I'm saying is, depending on the time of year back then, wouldn't they have been drinking fresh organic grape juice during communion? If the fruit of the vine hadn't had a chance to ferment yet? I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine. Even their typical fermented wine wasn't soecifically designed to be 13-14% abv like ours. I don't think we should be getting hung up on grape juice vs wine. And I love a good cab or Malbec.

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wine starts to ferment immediately from the yeast on the outside of the grapes themselves. unless they had a local juice stand squeezing grapes on demand (doubtful), it's reasonable to assume that there was going to be at minimum low-level alcohol content at all times. they didn't have refrigeration or utilize pasteurization to prevent fermentation.

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Wasn't natural fermentation a petty slow process back then? Like 1-2 weeks after harvest wouldn't it have been less than 1-2% max? Many of them would have loved to have the luxury of fresh fruit of the vine 24/7/365 I can assure you that. Unless looking to catch a buzz or just preferred the taste of rotting wine, like some of us.

Wycliffe_03 said:

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schmendeler said:

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Wycliffe_03 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Most of the water wouldn't have been safe to drink until it fermented. You can take truly disgusting water and have it reasonably clean after fermentation happens. If you drink it too early, disease city. Though to be fair, the alcohol content of most ancient beers and wines was typically lower than ours.

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I guess what I'm saying is, depending on the time of year back then, wouldn't they have been drinking fresh organic grape juice during communion? If the fruit of the vine hadn't had a chance to ferment yet? I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine. Even their typical fermented wine wasn't soecifically designed to be 13-14% abv like ours. I don't think we should be getting hung up on grape juice vs wine. And I love a good cab or Malbec.

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wine starts to ferment immediately from the yeast on the outside of the grapes themselves. unless they had a local juice stand squeezing grapes on demand (doubtful), it's reasonable to assume that there was going to be at minimum low-level alcohol content at all times. they didn't have refrigeration or utilize pasteurization to prevent fermentation.

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Wasn't natural fermentation a petty slow process back then? Like 1-2 weeks after harvest wouldn't it have been less than 1-2% max? Many of them would have loved to have the luxury of fresh fruit of the vine 24/7/365 I can assure you that. Unless looking to catch a buzz or just preferred the taste of rotting wine, like some of us.

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not sure on the speed. I'm also not sure where you're getting the 1-2 week period that all the wine would have been drunk within. I know the greeks commonly mixed their wine with seawater to water it down. I think it's reasonable to assume it was at least partly because of a higher than 1-2% alcohol content.

schmendeler said:

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Wycliffe_03 said:

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schmendeler said:

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Wycliffe_03 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Most of the water wouldn't have been safe to drink until it fermented. You can take truly disgusting water and have it reasonably clean after fermentation happens. If you drink it too early, disease city. Though to be fair, the alcohol content of most ancient beers and wines was typically lower than ours.

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I guess what I'm saying is, depending on the time of year back then, wouldn't they have been drinking fresh organic grape juice during communion? If the fruit of the vine hadn't had a chance to ferment yet? I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine. Even their typical fermented wine wasn't soecifically designed to be 13-14% abv like ours. I don't think we should be getting hung up on grape juice vs wine. And I love a good cab or Malbec.

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wine starts to ferment immediately from the yeast on the outside of the grapes themselves. unless they had a local juice stand squeezing grapes on demand (doubtful), it's reasonable to assume that there was going to be at minimum low-level alcohol content at all times. they didn't have refrigeration or utilize pasteurization to prevent fermentation.

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Wasn't natural fermentation a petty slow process back then? Like 1-2 weeks after harvest wouldn't it have been less than 1-2% max? Many of them would have loved to have the luxury of fresh fruit of the vine 24/7/365 I can assure you that. Unless looking to catch a buzz or just preferred the taste of rotting wine, like some of us.

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not sure on the speed. I'm also not sure where you're getting the 1-2 week period that all the wine would have been drunk within. I know the greeks commonly mixed their wine with seawater to water it down. I think it's reasonable to assume it was at least partly because of a higher than 1-2% alcohol content.

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It varied by time of year. At times, people would have been literally drinking fresh (or very close to it) organic grape juice. Again, my point is to ask why does it matter if someone is drinking grape juice, barely fermented 1-2% wine, or Merlot at communion? As long as they are not oerverting the practice, just seems like a matter of personal preference to me.

oinos is wine.

He turned water into wine at Cana of Galilee. Same wine used in Ephesians 5:18 (do not get drunk with wine) or in the qualification for bishop or overseer (not given to too much wine).

Christ says He will not drink of the fruit (offspring) of the vine, and this shown in part in Matthew 27 / Mark 15. However, there we see that they gave him wine (oinos) mixed with gall and later sour wine / vinegar (oxos) (cf prophecy in Psalm 69:21), which He refuses.

I don't know about "getting hung up on it" but we're instructed by St Paul to hold fast to the traditions we are passed down. The early witness is that we used wine, and we use wine to this day.

For example, St Justin describes the Eucharistic cup as wine mixed with water. This is our practice, as the wine is mingled with water (the zeon). St Irenaeus calls it the "mingled cup". St Clement of Alexandria calls it the "watered wine". St Ephrem of Syria says Christ took a "mixed up of wine" at the last supper.

St Athanasius refers to it as a cup of wine, as does St Cyril of Jerusalem. St Jerome compares the bread and wine to that offered by Melchizadek, which is the same word used for wine that got Noah drunk, for example. St Cyril of Alexandria says Christ indicated the bread and wine when He spoke.

(Also interesting, Genesis 14:18 in the LXX uses artos and oinos, common bread and wine as opposed to unleavened bread...)

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Again, my point is to ask why does it matter if someone is drinking grape juice, barely fermented 1-2% wine, or Merlot at communion?

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While I'm not a fan of grape juice for communion and would prefer my church use wine, I don't think it matters. The only ones that I've ever seen that it seems to matter for are those who are opposed to the use of wine. Perhaps it was growing up Baptist, but they were vehemently opposed to using wine.

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fresh organic grape juice during communion

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The use of "organic" here made me giggle.

I think the labeling laws were pretty lax back then.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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fresh organic grape juice during communion

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The use of "organic" here made me giggle.

I think the labeling laws were pretty lax back then.

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yeah, he seems pretty attached to it.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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fresh organic grape juice during communion

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The use of "organic" here made me giggle.

I think the labeling laws were pretty lax back then.

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Well, if it does in fact turn into the literal blood of Jesus, wouldn't that make it "organic"?

Depends on the rest of his diet.

The laws (in the US) are pretty strict about what can be called organic or not.

What pesticides were used in those days?

Pretty sure at our church we use a concord wine, probably Mogen David Concord.

RetiredAg said:

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Again, my point is to ask why does it matter if someone is drinking grape juice, barely fermented 1-2% wine, or Merlot at communion?

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While I'm not a fan of grape juice for communion and would prefer my church use wine, I don't think it matters. The only ones that I've ever seen that it seems to matter for are those who are opposed to the use of wine. Perhaps it was growing up Baptist, but they were vehemently opposed to using wine.

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Gotcha.

Yeah my church uses juice and has a history of being against the use of wine and I think it's pretty silly. But would not be willing to give up the church because of it. I do think it is silly though. I bet if you polled the congregation nowadays though that many would be fine with weak wine.

My catholic buddies used to give me crap about not having real wine at communion so I guess it matters to some others as well.

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Quote:

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fresh organic grape juice during communion

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The use of "organic" here made me giggle.

I think the labeling laws were pretty lax back then.

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Everything was organic back then. My point is that it was literally raw grape juice...not sure where you can get that today but I'm sure it's around. There were likely times when they were taking communion and could not taste any fermentation and they really appreciated wine before it turned sour. Unless you were looking to catch a buzz, or had a refined taste for rotting wine, you really savored wine when it was relatively fresh and unfermented.

I don't think that's completely right. Greek writers write about wines and flavors and vintages going back to the 400s BC. Some wines were prized just like today. My understanding is that Greek and Roman wine was strong, 16% etc and was intended to be diluted by water before drinking.

How did the Corinthians get drunk on the communion wine if it was just grape juice?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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How did the Corinthians get drunk on the communion wine if it was just grape juice?

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They perverted communion by drinking lots of rotten grape juice. I thought I once learned that about the max you could get back then was 8-9% ABV but I stand corrected by a different poster above. I don't think good followers of Christ were using it as an excuse to party, and 0% or 1-2% ABV grape juice counts just the same in communion as 13% wine.

I shouldn't have said anything, sorry. I just know that I have encountered people who automatically read wine in the bible to mean wine like we get off the rack at Kroger. Often times it was barely alcoholic and sometimes almost 0%. People back then loved fresh grape juice because it didn't last very long. And to most people who didn't want to get drunk, it tasted better than sour rotting grape juice.

My only point in replying to the OP was really that sometimes these people were basically drinking grape juice, or about as close to it as possible, depending on the season.

You've got an assertion here that wine did not mean high alcohol content. I'm objecting to that.

Wine means wine. The idea that when they say wine they really mean grape juice is, I believe, a product of the teetotaler movement.

Here's a ton of examples of it from antiquity.
http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2004/10/wine-and-water.html?m=1

Hate to quote wiki, but..

Yayin and oinos (which in the Septuagint also often translates most of the Hebrew words for alcoholic beverages listed above) are commonly translated "wine", but the two are also rarely, and perhaps figuratively or anticipatorily,used to refer to freshly pressed non-alcoholic juice. For this reason, prohibitionist and some abstentionist Christians object to taking the default meaning to be fermented beverages, but there is a broad consensus that the words did ordinarily refer to alcoholic beverages.

k2aggie07 said:

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You've got an assertion here that wine did not mean high alcohol content. I'm objecting to that.

Wine means wine. The idea that when they say wine they really mean grape juice is, I believe, a product of the teetotaler movement.

Here's a ton of examples of it from antiquity.
http://laudatortemporisacti.blogspot.com/2004/10/wine-and-water.html?m=1

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I've opened up a can of worms. I am no teetotaler and never meant to imply that juice from grapes didn't ferment and become higher and higher in alcohol content over time. I think it's silly that congregations would be against a mild wine.

I always took oinos to mean either fermented or unfermented fruit of the vine depending on the season and/or occasion,

Technically though, if juice from grapes begins to ferment rather quickly (I am assuming the process starts almost right away with raw grapes and no refrigeration or outside chemicals), I guess it's "alcoholic wine" after 1-2 days or so...even if only .01% ABV by that time.

You win, I was wrong. Even wine that you'd have to drink gallons of to catch a slight buzz on is wine.

I think Jesus is perfectly fine with drinking 0-.02% ABV juice from grapes out of a tiny plastic cup during communion as opposed to 13% from a leather wine bag though. The key is the focus and that we are not perverting the practice.

The Eucharist is a "reasonable and unbloody sacrifice" to God. In the OT drink offering was wine, specifically fermented and strong drink. Do you think God cared then if it was just grape juice? Not a trap question.

Seems like Protestants have such zeal to minimize ritual. I never understood why. Zeal to preserve makes a lot more sense to me.

Wycliffe_03 said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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Quote:

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fresh organic grape juice during communion

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The use of "organic" here made me giggle.

I think the labeling laws were pretty lax back then.

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Everything was organic back then. My point is that it was literally raw grape juice...not sure where you can get that today but I'm sure it's around. There were likely times when they were taking communion and could not taste any fermentation and they really appreciated wine before it turned sour. Unless you were looking to catch a buzz, or had a refined taste for rotting wine, you really savored wine when it was relatively fresh and unfermented.

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you don't seem to understand what happens with fermentation. it's not rotted. and it hasn't turned sour. you're throwing both of those terms around and neither is correct.