Question for those that drink wine for Communion

5,936 Views | 54 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by schmendeler
PacifistAg
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Coming from Baptist and Church of Christ worlds, my wife and I always drank grape juice at Communion. I'm not a fan of this practice, but I digress.

My question is not theological, but practical, in nature. Is there a particular kind of wine that you all use? I'm assuming it's a red wine, but what kind? Red blend? Cabernet Sauvignon? Merlot? Is this something that's a standard across the board, or just a matter of whatever someone picks up at the store? I know it's a silly question but popped in my head so I thought I'd ask.
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swimmerbabe11
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I believe we use a red blend..possibly from Haak winery, but I'm not positive.

I have taken communion with white wine once in Kentucky. Apparently up there it is more common, but most use red.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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Most priests inhave spoken with pick one from a local vineyard. I think the wine at my parish (St louis, Waco) comes from tehuacana creek vineyards. It's usually a sweeter light red like a blush.
Sapper Redux
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JJMt said:

Not a silly question at all. I had wine once at an Episcopalian church communion and it was good. I've wondered what it was ever since.


Usually a Port at Anglican services.
schmendeler
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How can it be anything other than sangria?
Amazing Moves
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schmendeler said:

How can it be anything other than sangria?
Boones?
Marco Esquandolas
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Zobel
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There's actually stuff called chalice wine out there, which is common. I've seen us use random wine (maybe a gift or something? I don't know). We also blend some manischevitz in from time to time.
booboo91
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For RCC most wines are type of Red, but not uncommon to see white wine used. Decision made by local church.

Interesting tidbits

1) The wine and bread are the same. Some folks think bread= body and wine= blood. They are both fully Jesus. Catholics are allowed to consume either or both.

2) Because we believe it is the real body/blood of Christ, great effort is given to respect the concecrated bread and wine. During clean up (washing dishes), everything is consumed- we don't throw Jesus down the sewer drain. In fact we have special drain that goes into ground and not sewer.
Zobel
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Some folks think? Like Jesus?
swimmerbabe11
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My right hand and my liver are both definitely me, but they aren't interchangeable.

I find this an odd thing to try to get creative on. Scripture is very clear about giving the disciples both and indicating one is body/ one is blood, that it is wine and bread. These aren't difficult prescriptions to follow. I've never understood this Catholic teaching or why anyone would only want to partake in half/withhold half.
booboo91
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k2aggie07 said:

Some folks think? Like Jesus?
Clarification. Some Christians believe the bread is the body of Jesus and the Wine is the Blood of Jesus.

RCC teaches the Bread is fully Jesus and the Wine is Fully Jesus (they are the same). You do not need to partake in both, because if you consume the wine or the bread you are consuming Jesus.

To be clear- consume only bread or consume only wine or consume both. Each time you consume you are consuming full/all Jesus, not just bits and pieces of jesus. Example- I ate Jesus toe, I ate Jesus heart, I drank his blood. RCC teaches you consume all of Jesus.

Swimmerbabe To add more confusion the Eucharistic Ministers will say- body of Christ for Bread and Blood of Christ for Wine. But it is still all ONE christ

RCC Catechism Eucharist- Very detailed
Martin Q. Blank
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booboo91 said:

k2aggie07 said:

Some folks think? Like Jesus?
Clarification. Some Christians believe the bread is the body of Jesus and the Wine is the Blood of Jesus.

RCC teaches the Bread is fully Jesus and the Wine is Fully Jesus. You do not need to partake in both, because if you consume the wine or the bread you are consuming Jesus.
PacifistAg
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k2aggie07 said:

Some folks think? Like Jesus?
You know, I'm coming around on this, especially as I read more and more from early church writers on the real presence of the flesh and blood in communion.

Are there any differences in how the RCC and Orthodox view this?
Aggiefan#1
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booboo91 said:

k2aggie07 said:

Some folks think? Like Jesus?
Clarification. Some Christians believe the bread is the body of Jesus and the Wine is the Blood of Jesus.

RCC teaches the Bread is fully Jesus and the Wine is Fully Jesus (they are the same). You do not need to partake in both, because if you consume the wine or the bread you are consuming Jesus.

To be clear- consume only bread or consume only wine or consume both. Each time you consume you are consuming full/all Jesus, not just bits and pieces of jesus. Example- I ate Jesus toe, I ate Jesus heart, I drank his blood. RCC teaches you consume all of Jesus.

Swimmerbabe To add more confusion the Eucharistic Ministers will say- body of Christ for Bread and Blood of Christ for Wine. But it is still all ONE christ

RCC Catechism Eucharist- Very detailed
Zobel
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Kind of. One of the gripes during the schism was that the Latins do not administer both kinds to the laity. The laity get the wafer or bread only, while the clergy get both. The Latins also do not use leavened bread.

The ancient practice is to use leavened bread and for everyone to partake of both kinds.

The RCC dodges this a bit by saying that since it's a sacrament a little Jesus is just as good as a lot, but it's not really the issue at hand.
PacifistAg
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Thanks. Now, another question for you and any of those who hold to transubstantiation and those that reject it: is the belief in the real presence in the bread and wine vs viewing it as a symbolic act a major issue? What are the consequences of either holding or rejecting transubstantiation?
Martin Q. Blank
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Transubstantiation is only one theory of the real presence. There are others. Rejecting transubstantiation is not necessarily rejecting the real presence.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

The ancient practice is to use leavened bread and for everyone to partake of both kinds.

Do you have references for this? It seems odd since the bread used at the Last Supper was almost certainly unleavened.
amercer
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Dr. Watson said:

JJMt said:

Not a silly question at all. I had wine once at an Episcopalian church communion and it was good. I've wondered what it was ever since.


Usually a Port at Anglican services.


This. You need something with a little backbone to wake you up at the early service.
Zobel
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Basically the Church, east and west, used leavened bread from the earliest times. The East has, and continues to do so.

"In the West, various ordinances appeared from the ninth century on, all demanding the exclusive use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist. A growing solicitude for the Blessed Sacrament and a desire to employ only the best and whitest bread, along with various scriptural considerations -- all favored this development. Still, the new custom did not come into exclusive vogue until the middle of the eleventh century. Particularly in Rome it was not universally accepted till after the general infiltration of various usages from the North..."(Jungman, The Mass of the Roman Rite, volume II, pp 33-34)

"Another change introduced into the Roman Rite in France and Germany at the time [i.e., 8th - 9th century] was the use of unleavened bread and of thin white wafers or hosts instead of the loaves of leavened bread used hitherto" (O'Shea, The Worship of the Church, p 128)

"The Eucharistic bread has been unleavened in the Latin rite since the 8th century -- that is, it is prepared simply from flour and water, without the addition of leaven or yeast..in the first millennium of the Church's history, both in East and West, the bread normally used for the Eucharist was ordinary 'daily bread,' that is, leavened bread, and the Eastern Church uses it still today; for the most part, they strictly forbid the use of unleavened bread. The Latin Church, by contrast, has not considered this question very important." (Emminghaus, The Eucharist: Essence, Form, Celebration, page 162)

"But they [i.e. the ancients] many times speak of leavened bread, and sometimes the Eucharist is called 'Fermentum', 'Leaven', upon that account. As appears from the Pontifical [i.e. Liber Pontificalis] in the Lives of Melchiades, and Siricius, and a Letter of Pope Innocent, where he says, it was the custom at Rome to Consecrate the Fermentum, (that is, the Eucharist) in the Mother Church and send it thence on the Lord's Day to the Presbyters in the Tituli, or lesser churches, that they might not think themselves separated from the Bishop's Communion. But they did not send it to any country parishes, because the Sacraments were not to be carried to places at any great distance. What is here called the Consecrated Fermentum, is by Baronius and other, who tread in the track of the Schoolmen [i.e. Scholastics], interpreted of the Eulogia, or Panis Benedictus, the bread that was blessed for such as did not communicate [i.e. the antidoron]. But Innocent plainly says, he meant it of the Sacrament, which was consecrated by the Bishop, and sent to the presbyters for the use of lesser church. Which shews, that at the time, even in Rome itself, the Eucharist was consecrated in common or leavened bread. It is observable, that neither Photius, nor any other Greek writer, before Michael Cerularius, A.D. 1051, ever objected to the use of unleavened bread to the Roman Church: which argues, that the use of it did not prevail till about that time; else there is no doubt but Photius would among other things, have objected this to them. These arguments put the matter beyond all dispute, that the Church for a thousand years use no other but common or leavened bread in the Eucharist; and how the change was made or the time exactly when, is not easy to determine." (Bingham, Antiquities of the Christian Church, Volume 1, Book XV, pg. 738)
Zobel
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This gets into the meat of salvation, what it means, and why the Mysteries of the Church are important. For us, salvation is real, and the change in us is real, and is not merely physical (nor exclusively metaphyiscal).

By partaking of the Mysteries we are transformed by grace, divinized, we are "partakers of the divine mystery". So participating in the Church, participating in the Mysteries is participating in Christ.

Disbelieving this is a rejection of the very center of the life of a Christian.

///////////////////

Separately, transubstantiation is really a tough subject. I'm sure you've seen my list of all of the terms used to describe the mystery that happens at Holy Communion. To understand transubstantiation you have to understand the underlying philosophical meaning of the words.

Substance or essence means, philosophically, that which makes something what it is. If you change this, you no longer have the same thing. It's intrinsic to the thing. So being a human is your essence, if you change to a horse you are no longer what you are. But if you cut your hair, you are still what you are, so hair is not an essential feature of you as you. Right?

All transubstantiation is, is saying that the change which takes place in communion is real and to the point that the very essence of the things being changed has changed. They are no longer what they were. As for how that is elaborated upon in the West I really can't say (i.e., it's no longer bread and wine vs it's no longer mere bread and wine vs it's now meat and blood) but on the surface I have no problem with that statement. It's a real change, so it's not what it was before.

The tricky part is in the exposition. For example, many of the Orthodox say that God is supraessential, because He transcends essential being, as He is Uncaused etc. So if philosophically we say that the essence has changed, it begs the question -- into what? Not His essence or ousia, because this uncontainable and supraessential and beyond all manner of being. So the detail is where transubstantiation gets objection from the East.

We just say it is a real change, it really is His Body and Blood, and it really is the means of receiving grace and life par excellence. The end.
ramblin_ag02
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Thanks! I was being lazy and hoping you had some earlier references. I know it isn't mentioned in the Didache, but I was hoping for something along those lines.

Do you know why the Orthodox prohibit the use of unleavened bread? Like I said, it just seems odd. The Last Supper was the archetype for this. They almost certainly used unleavened bread as it was circa Passover time. I could see the old RCC position that it really doesn't matter one way or another, but I am curious why it has to be specifically leavened bread.
Zobel
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There's a lot of references to Christ as a new leaven in the Fathers. I'd have to find St Photios' quotes, he was a very vocal objector to the practice.
Win At Life
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Thanks! I was being lazy and hoping you had some earlier references. I know it isn't mentioned in the Didache, but I was hoping for something along those lines.

Do you know why the Orthodox prohibit the use of unleavened bread? Like I said, it just seems odd. The Last Supper was the archetype for this. They almost certainly used unleavened bread as it was circa Passover time. I could see the old RCC position that it really doesn't matter one way or another, but I am curious why it has to be specifically leavened bread.
The reason this bread was leavened is because the practice came from the Jewish gatherings (including Jews who believed in Yeshua) around Shabbat with Challah bread.

Wiki Challah

If you want to return to the practice of Yeshau and the Apostles, then keep Erev Shabbat and Havdalah with bread and wine just as they did.

Shalom.
ramblin_ag02
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Thanks k2 and WAL! I'll check out those references
booboo91
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k2aggie07 said:

Kind of. One of the gripes during the schism was that the Latins do not administer both kinds to the laity. The laity get the wafer or bread only, while the clergy get both. The Latins also do not use leavened bread.

The ancient practice is to use leavened bread and for everyone to partake of both kinds.

The RCC dodges this a bit by saying that since it's a sacrament a little Jesus is just as good as a lot, but it's not really the issue at hand.
Clarification
1) Yes- The priest always consumes wine and bread( host) at every mass.

2) For Sunday Mass would say most all of the churches offer both bread/wine but Daily mass typically only offer bread. Depends on the Mass time, the Mass type (High Mass) and discretion of the church pastor.

White Liberals=The Worst
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Depending on the time of year, wouldn't Christ followers have been drinking grape juice? It wasn't always fermented (at least not to near the degree of a 13% cabernet) and most people preferred fresh grape juice/wine back then didn't they (unless they were looking to get drunk)? These were people who didn't really have access to much fresh water or many drink options.
Sapper Redux
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Most of the water wouldn't have been safe to drink until it fermented. You can take truly disgusting water and have it reasonably clean after fermentation happens. If you drink it too early, disease city. Though to be fair, the alcohol content of most ancient beers and wines was typically lower than ours.
PacifistAg
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Wycliffe_03 said:

Depending on the time of year, wouldn't Christ followers have been drinking grape juice? It wasn't always fermented (at least not to near the degree of a 13% cabernet) and most people preferred fresh grape juice/wine back then didn't they (unless they were looking to get drunk)? These were people who didn't really have access to much fresh water or many drink options.
Yes, wine during the time of Jesus was much weaker w/ regards to alcohol content. I imagine if it were actually grape juice, we'd see an indication of that in the text. Knowing this would really depend on knowing the original language and what words were used. Is there a different word for wine vs grape juice in the original language? If so, which word was used in the text?

White Liberals=The Worst
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Dr. Watson said:

Most of the water wouldn't have been safe to drink until it fermented. You can take truly disgusting water and have it reasonably clean after fermentation happens. If you drink it too early, disease city. Though to be fair, the alcohol content of most ancient beers and wines was typically lower than ours.


I guess what I'm saying is, depending on the time of year back then, wouldn't they have been drinking fresh organic grape juice during communion? If the fruit of the vine hadn't had a chance to ferment yet? I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine. Even their typical fermented wine wasn't soecifically designed to be 13-14% abv like ours. I don't think we should be getting hung up on grape juice vs wine. And I love a good cab or Malbec.
White Liberals=The Worst
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RetiredAg said:

Wycliffe_03 said:

Depending on the time of year, wouldn't Christ followers have been drinking grape juice? It wasn't always fermented (at least not to near the degree of a 13% cabernet) and most people preferred fresh grape juice/wine back then didn't they (unless they were looking to get drunk)? These were people who didn't really have access to much fresh water or many drink options.
Yes, wine during the time of Jesus was much weaker w/ regards to alcohol content. I imagine if it were actually grape juice, we'd see an indication of that in the text. Knowing this would really depend on knowing the original language and what words were used. Is there a different word for wine vs grape juice in the original language? If so, which word was used in the text?




Wine is the juice of grapes right? Doesn't the ancient word for wine just translate to "fruit of the vine" or something?

Depending on how close to harvest, earlier followers would have been drinking pretty fresh and virtually I fermented stuff if I u deray and correctly. Of course it wasn't auoer saturated with the sugars etc of some of our diabetes inducing grape juices today.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine.

Who says this? I've never heard anyone claim the wine in biblical days was a "modern day potent wine". It's common knowledge that it was much weaker back then.
White Liberals=The Worst
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RetiredAg said:

Quote:

I don't see why some people believe it has to be a modern day potent wine.

Who says this? I've never heard anyone claim the wine in biblical days was a "modern day potent wine". It's common knowledge that it was much weaker back then.


And at certain times of the year it would have been literally 0% ABV or very close to it. That didn't last too long so my understanding is that people actually enjoyed/savored fresh grape juice.

I have met some people who seem to think they were drinking the equivalent of our modern wine back then.

Should it matter if it's rotting (fermenting) or not?
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