Dr. Watson said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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For eternity? In totality? To be in and of the creation?

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Who says in totality? Physicality cannot be infinite. Any physical manifestation of God will be by definition finite.

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So God is splitting into another manifestation?

And there are still nations on this Earth?

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Of course. Nation doesn't mean government, it means ethnicity or people group. Do you think Irish and Mexicans will stop being so in heaven? A person's nationality is part of who they are.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.""
Revelation 7:9-10 NIV
http://bible.com/111/rev.7.9-10.NIV

Aggie4Life02 said:

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...as a point of clarity, the afterlife is everlasting, not eternal. Heaven isn't timeless.

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Why do you conclude that heaven isn't timeless? I'm not saying it is or is not, but I am curious as to how you concluded this definitively.

Aggrad08 said:

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A timeless aspect seems inconsistent with Catholic theology which has you omnipresent at every location in the universe Lest someone petition you for a prayer.

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Omnipresent to me seems to fit very well with a being that is not bound by time.

Imagine time was standing still for you, and you decided to walk to Seattle. Once you got there, you decided to walk to Chicago, and then back home.

In that moment of time, which hasn't changed, where are you at? Your home? Seattle? Chicago? Or, all three of these places, and everywhere in-between.

Not saying that this is how it works, but conceptually, I can strain to imagine it.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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For eternity? In totality? To be in and of the creation?

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Who says in totality? Physicality cannot be infinite. Any physical manifestation of God will be by definition finite.

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So God is splitting into another manifestation?

And there are still nations on this Earth?

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Of course. Nation doesn't mean government, it means ethnicity or people group. Do you think Irish and Mexicans will stop being so in heaven? A person's nationality is part of who they are.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.""
Revelation 7:9-10 NIV
http://bible.com/111/rev.7.9-10.NIV

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This was in the verse you cited earlier:

Quote:

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The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

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Sure sounds like kings and kingdoms still exist outside of the new Jerusalem.

BusterAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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...as a point of clarity, the afterlife is everlasting, not eternal. Heaven isn't timeless.

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Why do you conclude that heaven isn't timeless? I'm not saying it is or is not, but I am curious as to how you concluded this definitively.

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Heaven is a physical place. Things that are physical cannot be outside of time.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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...as a point of clarity, the afterlife is everlasting, not eternal. Heaven isn't timeless.

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Why do you conclude that heaven isn't timeless? I'm not saying it is or is not, but I am curious as to how you concluded this definitively.

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Heaven is a physical place. Things that are physical cannot be outside of time.

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Out of curiosity, says what?

Matter requires change. Change cannot happen without time.

For any given moment in time I could see that. But the world is ever changing. Walking to Chicago looks different than 3k years ago with different people to be found.

To petition prayer is to operate under causality. So even if there weren't time per say, there would be some sort of equivalent that lets cause and effect be a thing.

Further if you take it a bit more literally you get a resurrection of dead bodies and a new earth. Which seems to imply much of the same universe and laws.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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...as a point of clarity, the afterlife is everlasting, not eternal. Heaven isn't timeless.

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Why do you conclude that heaven isn't timeless? I'm not saying it is or is not, but I am curious as to how you concluded this definitively.

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Heaven is a physical place. Things that are physical cannot be outside of time.

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Why do you conclude that Heaven is a physical place, as we understand the term "physical place"?

Why do you conclude that matter requires time to change? I'm still not sure if the concept before and after has any meaning or no meaning outside of time.

For what it is worth, I am not arguing that heaven is/will be timeless. I just don't know either way.

Without time, a cause cannot have an effect.

Also, the Bible teaches a physical resurrection of the dead.

Aggrad08 said:

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For any given moment in time I could see that. But the world is ever changing. Walking to Chicago looks different than 3k years ago with different people to be found.

To petition prayer is to operate under causality. So even if there weren't time per say, there would be some sort of equivalent that lets cause and effect be a thing.

Further if you take it a bit more literally you get a resurrection of dead bodies and a new earth. Which seems to imply much of the same universe and laws.

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But if you exist everywhere at all times, what does that really mean? Do you exist everywhere in time? Unbounded by time? Walking from Seattle to Chicago 3k years ago has no meaning if you are unbounded by time. You exist everywhere at all times.

Are timelessness and cause / effect compatible? I'm not sure either way.

Not sure if I agree that the Kingdom of Heaven is going to be much of the same universe and laws. I tend to believe the opposite, but have no real footing to base an argument either way.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Without time, a cause cannot have an effect.

Also, the Bible teaches a physical resurrection of the dead.

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Why can't there be cause and effect without time? If you do something in eternity, might it impact your entire eternity, past, present, and future?

Not sure how the physical resurrection of the dead will work. There is talk about new bodies, and about the lack of need to marry, so I would assume I don't get my own (hopefully old and decrepit) skin back.

BusterAg said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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Without time, a cause cannot have an effect.

Also, the Bible teaches a physical resurrection of the dead.

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Why can't there be cause and effect without time? If you do something in eternity, might it impact your entire eternity, past, present, and future?

Not sure how the physical resurrection of the dead will work. There is talk about new bodies, and about the lack of need to marry, so I would assume I don't get my own (hopefully old and decrepit) skin back.

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A finite being cannot be in eternity. The very nature of effects is that they must be preceded temporally by their causes. That's why heaven is everlasting, not eternal.

You are saying that there can be nothing new introduced into eternity?

Can you give me definitions on the distinction between eternal and everlasting?

BusterAg said:

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You are saying that there can be nothing new introduced into eternity?

Can you give me definitions on the distinction between eternal and everlasting?

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Eternal is without being or end. Everlasting is with a beginning, but no end. Eternal can be outside of time. Everlasting must be inside of time.

When I was a young Christian I use to think heaven would be boring as well. I imagined singing for eternity and I not much of a singer. Here's are some of the descriptions of eternity that I find attractive

Life with God in eternity is never stagnant but always increasing.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this. Is 9:6

What gives you pleasure in this life? Most of what gives us pleasure now has diminishing returns, can be bad for us relationally or harm us. In an eternity with no death, no sin, no pain, and joy and pleasures forever....i'll take it.
You will make known to me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; In Your right hand there are pleasures forever. Ps 16:11

Glorified bodies = new nature. Someone early posted that we would lose our free will because we could no longer sin. I don't believe this is true. 1. Believers are mentioned to rule and reign with Christ in the future and judge angels. All of this requires decision making or free will. 2. I believe our nature will change so that sin will not be a possibility or a desire. Look at Christ's abilities post resurrection. Sounds pretty cool

DirtDiver said:

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There will be no end to the increase of His government ...Sounds pretty cool

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Typical big government liberal

> Typical big government liberal.

Haha...I'm anything but a big gov liberal with the way things are here and there's no comparison between the characteristics our government leaders and Jesus. Am I okay with Jesus running this future government with all power and authority? Absolutely.

Everyone is trying
To get to the bar
The name of the bar
The bar is called heaven

The band in heaven
They play my favorite song
Play it one more time
Play it all night long

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

There is a party
Everyone is there
Everyone will leave
At exactly the same time

It's hard to imagine that
Nothing at all
Could be so exciting
Could be this much fun

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

When this kiss is over
It will start again
It will not be any different
It will be exactly the same

It's hard to imagine
That nothing at all
Could be so exciting
Could be this much fun

Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens
Heaven
Heaven is a place
A place where nothing
Nothing ever happens

I think the opposite. Living only this earthly life sounds like torture and I welcome the afterlife. I also love this life and all it has, so continuing for eternity sounds great.

HC said:

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I think the opposite. Living only this earthly life sounds like torture and I welcome the afterlife. I also love this life and all it has, so continuing for eternity sounds great.

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Life is awesome.

For a while. I wish it lasted a helluva lot longer than 100 years. However, it would get boring and unendurable eventually. I don't see why the afterlife would be any different.

I can see that point. Maybe watching the people entering and exiting life, on earth, would provide eternal enjoyment?

HC said:

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I can see that point. Maybe watching the people entering and exiting life, on earth, would provide eternal enjoyment?

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In the new heaven, there is no more death.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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HC said:

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I can see that point. Maybe watching the people entering and exiting life, on earth, would provide eternal enjoyment?

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In the new heaven, there is no more death.

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You could watch somebody on earth die, which is really moving on to the new afterlife, bruh. That's living

HC said:

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Aggie4Life02 said:

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HC said:

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I can see that point. Maybe watching the people entering and exiting life, on earth, would provide eternal enjoyment?

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In the new heaven, there is no more death.

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You could watch somebody on earth die, which is really moving on to the new afterlife, bruh. That's living

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That's the current heaven. It too will pass away.

Quote:

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Life is awesome. I wish it lasted a helluva lot longer than 100 years. However, it would get boring and unendurable eventually. I don't see why the afterlife would be any different.

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Life is awesome...at times...and in a fallen world. I don't think boring and unendurable is going to be an option in heaven.


Jesus lived one heck of a lifestyle for us to have the option to go to heaven...for the joy set before Him he endured the cross, despising it's shame.

Christians Wrong About Heaven, Says Bishop

Quote:

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There are several important respects in which it's unsupported by the New Testament. First, the timing. In the Bible we are told that you die, and enter an intermediate state. St. Paul is very clear that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead already, but that nobody else has yet. Secondly, our physical state. The New Testament says that when Christ does return, the dead will experience a whole new life: not just our soul, but our bodies. And finally, the location. At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.

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Wow! How much hocus pocus is contained in that? If someone standing on the street corner said things like that, you would walk away as quickly as possible.

Aggie4Life02 said:

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Woody2006 said:

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outofstateaggie said:

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Time is irrelevant to an eternal being. Remove that from the equation. One would have no sense of a beginning or end...just an eternal present. Is boredom still a factor in this scenario?

Also, learning and exploration would involve progression. Is eternal learning or progression another way to describe eternal life? Is that boring?

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It all sounds horrifically boring to me over the course of eternity.

What's so bad with the concept of the lights going out?

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...what you personally prefer doesn't have anything to do with what is.

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I find this response highly ironic. It's pretty well established that Revelations was not thought to be worthy of cannon by many in the early church. Much of what you are saying kinda rings of just making s*it up, hence the irony.

kurt vonnegut said:

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The problem with describing Heaven or God with any term that invokes the 'infinite' such as eternal, timeless, all-loving, all-good, omnipresent, omniscient. . . . is that human being do not understand what this actually means. As such, I find its use in describing God or Heaven to be nonsense. There is a lot of well constructed and vivid word salad out there to describe these things, and they all basically mean nothing.

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This.

You are right that we cannot comprehend eternity very well or what it would be like in the presence of God. I am with ya. I don't think it's all word salad and incomprehensible.

... And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.".

Woody2006 said:

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Doesn't it get boring?

I feel like any experience would become torture eventually. Eternal life seems to me as though it would be torture no matter your destination.

Isn't annihilation preferable?

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We are children of God. Think about the implication of that statement.

When you say "we are the children of God," who does that include?

fwheightsboy said:

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When you say "we are the children of God," who does that include?

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Everyone.