If Yeshua said "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Yeshua said if you practice sin then He does not know you.

So, how do know if you know Him?

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:24

Strive to enter the door? Salvation is a two part process. One must have faith that God is God, one must also be faithful in obeying Him. For if you have faith, then you will have obedience or works.

All well said, but one cannot ignore the commandments. This would include keeping the true Shabbat, eating kosher, wearing tzitzit, etc. It is not about failing, but about your true intention. It is about truly loving God.

If you are not keeping the commandments and say you know Him, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

Pro Sandy said:

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But I keep failing. I don't always love my neighbor as myself. I don't always remember the poor and needy. I fail to be obedient to God.

But I know that my salvation is based on the finished work of Christ and that by the Spirit I am being made new, sanctified, so that I can be obedient and obey his commandments. Not to be saved, but because I am saved.

I know I am in Christ not because of what I have done but what he has done in me.

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Aggrad08 said:

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So only those who keep all 613 laws are saved? Except for the laws that can't be followed without a Temple or theocracy?

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That's one of the reasons I don't get his argument. If following these was how we are "saved", then the lack of a Temple and the lack of a theocracy wouldn't stop me. But, then again, our eternal salvation isn't actually dependent on whether or not I ate a shrimp cocktail, so it's a moot point.

Aggrad08 said:

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So only those who keep all 613 laws are saved? Except for the laws that can't be followed without a Temple or theocracy?

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One must turn towards God. That means following what God says as well. When you turn to Him, you follow His ways. God made provisions for when there was no temple....

Take the words [confessing your guilt] with you and return to the Lord.
Say to Him, "Take away all our wickedness;
Accept what is good and receive us graciously,
So that we may present the fruit of our lips (gratitude). Hosea 14:2 AMP

God will build the last Temple and the Torah will flow from it:

"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths."
For the Torah will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3)

Micah 4 says the same thing.

Ezekiel and Isaiah both show in the Millennial Kingdom the Torah will be followed as well.

Pro Sandy said:

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agie95 said:

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All well said, but one cannot ignore the commandments. This would include keeping the true Shabbat, eating kosher, wearing tzitzit, etc. It is not about failing, but about your true intention. It is about truly loving God.

If you are not keeping the commandments and say you know Him, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you. keep

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I have never been able to keep the commandments and doubt I will ever be able to on this side of heaven. If you claim you are perfect by your own ability to keep the law, I will call you a liar and the truth is not in you.

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But you make an effort not to right? You may covet but you genuinely try not to. That's what he is saying. Do you also genuinely try to keep the shabbat? Not eat shellfish? ect. That's what makes him a real follower who is saved and you not.

Pro Sandy said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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agie95 said:

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All well said, but one cannot ignore the commandments. This would include keeping the true Shabbat, eating kosher, wearing tzitzit, etc. It is not about failing, but about your true intention. It is about truly loving God.

If you are not keeping the commandments and say you know Him, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you. keep

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I have never been able to keep the commandments and doubt I will ever be able to on this side of heaven. If you claim you are perfect by your own ability to keep the law, I will call you a liar and the truth is not in you.

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But you make an effort not to right? You may covet but you genuinely try not to. That's what he is saying. Do you also genuinely try to keep the shabbat? Not eat shellfish? ect. That's what makes him a real follower who is saved and you not.

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I seek to love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, might, and strength and love my neighbor as myself.

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See this is the sticking point with agie though. Using his views, you cannot seek to love God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself while eating shellfish. They are mutually exclusive.

Pro Sandy said:

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agie95 said:

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All well said, but one cannot ignore the commandments. This would include keeping the true Shabbat, eating kosher, wearing tzitzit, etc. It is not about failing, but about your true intention. It is about truly loving God.

If you are not keeping the commandments and say you know Him, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

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I have never been able to keep the commandments and doubt I will ever be able to on this side of heaven. If you claim you are perfect by your own ability to keep the law, I will call you a liar and the truth is not in you.

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So foolish of you. I never said I was perfect. Far from it. Following Torah is not about being perfect. King David said he followed Torah yet we know of his sins. Paul says he follows Torah, but we know he was not perfect. Following God is about loving God. The Messiah came to reconcile us back to God, which is why we do not need to be perfect. Our faith does not nullify the Torah, God forbid. It is about loving God. John tells us this at least 9 times. I know it is hard for you to accept based on what you have been taught, but your teachers are wrong. The Bible says differently.

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15

He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."John 14:21

"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. John 14:23-24

If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. John 15:10

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 1 John 2:4

Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 1 John 2:7

and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 1 John 3:22

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:2-3

I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth, just as we have received commandment to do from the Father. Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. 2 John 1:4-6

Pro Sandy said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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I seek to love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, might, and strength and love my neighbor as myself.

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Right, and if you really loved the Lord you wouldn't wear mixed fabric clothing.

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I personally prefer 100% cotton. My wife keeps buying their poly blends and I can't stand the texture. The touch, the feel of sinning...

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Okay, this made me laugh.

Agie does it bother you that all these people will be in paradise even though they dont follow the entire Torah?

Marco Esquandolas said:

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Agie does it bother you that all these people will be in paradise even though they dont follow the entire Torah?

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Pro Sandy said:

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I find it hard to believe that my loving God is found to be short and likely offensive to God because I say thanks before I eat shrimp.

Many followers of the law Jesus called out, not because they came up short, but because they didn't have love.

Love God, love your neighbor. I don't think eating shrimp is exclusive of either of those. Murdering them, adultery with their wives, stealing from them, yes. Eating shrimp with them? No.

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I find it hard to believe that you cannot read Scripture for what it says. If you love God, you will follow the commandments. If you choose not to follow His ways, then you don't love God. You love your idea of God. You love how you live, but you don't love God based on Scripture.

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I find it hard to believe that my loving God is found to be short and likely offensive to God because I say thanks before I eat shrimp.

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Not calling you out specifically, but I wanted to discuss this statement in a broader context. To me, any real love requires sacrifice, hardship, and pain. That is not the entirety of love. But if you are not willing to suffer for someone or with someone, then you don't really love them. There are also many people who say they love someone, but that love is never tested. If you never have to support someone when they are down, help them when they are sick, or give up something for their good then you haven't acted out your love for them.

How do this apply to the conversation regarding Torah? To me it's the same thing. It's a question of attitude. Someone may say "I eat what I want, do what I want when I want, take what I want, sleep with who I want, wear what I want, live how I want" and "God still loves me and forgives me". Yes He does. They may say "God doesn't care about any of that". Maybe He doesn't. But that's not the point. That type of attitude shows no love, reverence, or respect for God at all. God gave Jesus to show how much He loves us. If your entire faith consists of calling yourself Christian and showing up to a free entertaining service haphazardly, then how have you showed your love for God?

I think Torah observance is one way. I loved bacon, but I love God more. I love working to make money, but I love God more. I love eating, but I will fast for God. I'm shy and like to blend in, but I'll wear tassels and stand out for God. I'm fascinated by other religions, but I won't study them or keep idols in my house because I love God. For me these are acts of love all the way through. Every time I deny myself something I enjoy, I'm showing God that I love him more. Torah is the flowers, candy, diamonds, and love songs of our relationship with God. Traditional and time-honored.

You also don't see me jumping on others over this. Missionaries, clergy, iterant preachers all sacrifice a lot to show their love and dedication to God. Martyrs give their lives to show the same thing. My sacrifices are not on that level, but they are something. Not every girl likes flowers, and not every girl like jewelry. Your relationship with God doesn't have to be like mine. But if you live your life like God doesn't matter, then I think it is fair to ask if you have a relationship with God at all.

ram said:

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You also don't see me jumping on others over this. Missionaries, clergy, iterant preachers all sacrifice a lot to show their love and dedication to God. Martyrs give their lives to show the same thing. My sacrifices are not on that level, but they are something. Not every girl likes flowers, and not every girl like jewelry. Your relationship with God doesn't have to be like mine. But if you live your life like God doesn't matter, then I think it is fair to ask if you have a relationship with God at all.

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Missionaries are a great example of the problem that, I believe, many have w/ agie. I absolutely agree that love entails sacrifice. A missionary that goes to remote jungles to spread the gospel, even under the high risk of death and disease, in agie's view does not love God if they eat shrimp or don't tie tassels to their clothes.

We absolutely shouldn't live our life like God doesn't matter. It would be like claiming to love your wife while not being faithful and/or ever talking to her. But, I think 99.999% of Christians that eat shrimp, bacon, etc aren't doing so thinking "I'll live my life like I want because God will forgive me". We genuinely do not believe eating shrimp is wrong and that we are not bound by these 613 rules that agie claims is a measure of our love of God.

agie95 said:

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Pro Sandy said:

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I find it hard to believe that my loving God is found to be short and likely offensive to God because I say thanks before I eat shrimp.

Many followers of the law Jesus called out, not because they came up short, but because they didn't have love.

Love God, love your neighbor. I don't think eating shrimp is exclusive of either of those. Murdering them, adultery with their wives, stealing from them, yes. Eating shrimp with them? No.

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I find it hard to believe that you cannot read Scripture for what it says. If you love God, you will follow the commandments. If you choose not to follow His ways, then you don't love God. You love your idea of God. You love how you live, but you don't love God based on Scripture.

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So, you are able to lead a completely sinless life? How do you manage that?

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We absolutely shouldn't live our life like God doesn't matter. It would be like claiming to love your wife while not being faithful and/or ever talking to her. But, I think 99.999% of Christians that eat shrimp, bacon, etc aren't doing so thinking "I'll live my life like I want because God will forgive me". We genuinely do not believe eating shrimp is wrong and that we are not bound by these 613 rules that agie claims is a measure of our love of God.

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Was personally referring to things I have witnessed. People that never read their Bible, never pray, do whatever they want whenever they want, and then go to church Sunday morning 1 to 3 times per month. They don't volunteer at the church, go to Bible study, or go to Sunday school. The church service had better be appropriately entertaining, and the pastor had better make them feel good about themselves. No one should pressure them about joining, bring up their sin, or expect them to contribute or they won't ever go back to that church again.

I would call that person the typical modern American Christian, and megachurches build giant auditoriums for people just like these. I think it is entirely fair to say the that above "Christian" has no relationship with God whatsoever. To be fair to everyone here, if you care enough to post on a religious message board, then you don't really fit in that group.

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Was personally referring to things I have witnessed. People that never read their Bible, never pray, do whatever they want whenever they want, and then go to church Sunday morning 1 to 3 times per month. They don't volunteer at the church, go to Bible study, or go to Sunday school. The church service had better be appropriately entertaining, and the pastor had better make them feel good about themselves. No one should pressure them about joining, bring up their sin, or expect them to contribute or they won't ever go back to that church again.

I would call that person the typical modern American Christian, and megachurches build giant auditoriums for people just like these. I think it is entirely fair to say the that above "Christian" has no relationship with God whatsoever. To be fair to everyone here, if you care enough to post on a religious message board, then you don't really fit in that group.

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Oh, I would absolutely agree with this.

Aggrad08 said:

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So by that reasoning I can ensure that my pork and shellfish is well cooked before serving and all is well right? If we can break laws down to assumed practical intentions...

Otherwise your roof is an affront to God as much as my pizza

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Crap, I live in an RV! How the heck can I put a parapet on this thing?

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Crap, I live in an RV! How the heck can I put a parapet on this thing?

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Modern day tabernacle. Sukkot all year long!