k2aggie07 said:

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Raise your hand if agie95 has convinced you that all the church fathers are jew-hatin' antisemites.

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I, for one, am a convert.

and let's be honest here; the jews haven't exactly made it hard to be an anti-semite either; I'm not condoning anti-semitism; it's wrong, but they haven't made themselves a hard target.

Sq16Aggie2006 said:

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and let's be honest here; the jews haven't exactly made it hard to be an anti-semite either; I'm not condoning anti-semitism; it's wrong, but they haven't made themselves a hard target.

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Here are just a few quotes by these wonderful saints and other fine men...

"On account of their unbelief and other insults which they heaped upon Jesus, the Jews will not only suffer more than others in the judgment which is believed to impend over the world, but have even already endured such sufferings. For what nation is in exile from their own metropolis, and from the place sacred to the worship of their fathers, save the Jews alone? And the calamities they have suffered because they were a most wicked nation, which although guilty of many other sins, yet has been punished so severely for none as for those that were committed against our Jesus." Origen

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human racehence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election. Origen

Hilary of Potieres spoke of the Jews as "a people who had always persisted in iniquity and out of its abundance of evil glorified in wickedness." Ambrose defended a fellow bishop for burning a synagogue at Callinicum and asked "who cares if a synagogue - home of insanity and unbelief - is destroyed?"

"The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan....they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews, a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

"The Jews have fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness have brought them to the level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

"The synagogue is a curse, obstinate in her error, she refuses to see or hear, she has deliberately perverted her judgment; she has extinguished with herself the light of the Holy Spirit." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

At the end of the 4th century AD, the Bishop of Antioch, John Chrysostom (golden tongue John), the great orator, wrote a series of eight sermons against the Jews. To quote him, "the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater, it is also a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. No Jew adores God... Jews are inveterate murderers possessed by the devil, their debauchery and drunkenness gives them the manner of the pig." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

Chrysostom further said that the Jews had become a degenerate race because of their "odious assassination of Christ for which crime there is no expiation possible, no indulgence, no pardon, and for which they will always be a people without a nation, enduring a servitude without end."

"But it was men, says the Jew, who brought these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the power to accomplish them, unless it had been God's will...Men would certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them...Is it not obvious that it was because God hated you and rejected you once for all?" Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

"I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

Justin Martyr around 160 AD in speaking to a Jew said: "The Scriptures are not yours, but ours."

Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyon around 177 AD declared: "Jews are disinherited from the grace of God."

Tertullian (160-230 AD), in his Treatise, 'Against the Jews' announced that "God had rejected the Jews in favor of Christians."

In the early 4th century, historian, Eusebius wrote that the promises of the Hebrew Jews were for Christians and not the Jews, and the curses were for the Jews. He argued that the Church was the continuation of the Old Testament and thus "superseded" Judaism.

St. Jerome (347-407 AD) describes the Jews as "...serpents, wearing the image of Judas, their Psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys."

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God's favorit is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity. Ignatius Bishop of Antioch Epistle to the Magnesians

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it. Epistle of Barnabas (between 130-138 AD)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart. Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho

The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other menas I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark. Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you! Augistine Confessions 12.14

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men. Peter the Venerable (supposedly the meekest of all men)

Do you think that it is anti-semitic to say that Jews have no greater claim on salvation than do muslims, buddhists, taoists, polytheists, and atheists?

swimmerbabe11 said:

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Do you think that it is anti-semitic to say that Jews have no greater claim on salvation than do muslims, buddhists, taoists, polytheists, and atheists?

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No

Arguing that being Jewish is not the path to salvation is hardly antisemitic.

Kinda why I asked. If you cull the quotes that say that Jews are not secure in their salvation (due to a lack of Christ,,,who is the only way to the Father), then you cut that list in about half.

I also think it's ridiculous that someone would wonder why early Christians would be sore at a group of people who killed their God. The Gospel of Matthew says verbatim that the jews said "let his blood be on us and on our children", I'm not claiming any sort of hereditary blood guilt; but you can imagine why people would be upset.

Amazing how you guys just love those supposed saints. It doesn't matter what they said or did...It is good to know. This is exactly why the crusades and later the Holocaust occurred.

History always repeats itself, we know per Rev. who it who happen to.

This is going to be fun! First, I'm going to try to sift through the things that are just saying we don't think being a Jewish person and not a Christian and look at the actual quotes by St John C.

"The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan....they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews, a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

At the end of the 4th century AD, the Bishop of Antioch, John Chrysostom (golden tongue John), the great orator, wrote a series of eight sermons against the Jews. To quote him, "the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater, it is also a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. No Jew adores God... Jews are inveterate murderers possessed by the devil, their debauchery and drunkenness gives them the manner of the pig." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

These are from Homily I, Against the Jews, near as I can tell. I can't find that exact quote, but here's some of the context and actual quotes.

For the wild beasts and brothel reference

Quote:

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Surely the Jews are not more deserving of belief than their prophets. "You had a harlot's brow; you became shameless before all". Where a harlot has set herself up, that place is a brothel. But the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. Jeremiah said: "Your house has become for me the den of a hyena". He does not simply say "of wild beast", but "of a filthy wild beast", and again: "I have abandoned my house, I have cast off my inheritance". But when God forsakes a people, what hope of salvation is left? When God forsakes a place, that place becomes the dwelling of demons.

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For the sacrificing of their children:

Quote:

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Consider, then, with whom they are sharing their fasts. It is with those who shouted: "Crucify him, Crucify him", with those who said: "His blood be upon us and upon our children". If some men had been caught in rebellion against their ruler and were condemned, would you have dared to go up to them and to speak with them? I think not. Is it not foolish, then, to show such readiness to flee from those who have sinned against a man, but to enter into fellowship with those who have committed outrages against God himself? Is it not strange that those who worship the Crucified keep common festival with those who crucified him? Is it not a sign of folly and the worst madness?

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From Homily 5

Quote:

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After he ran through their lawless acts, the prophet next spoke of the penalty they paid, because he wanted to use this to win God over to pity them. For he said: "And there came upon us the malediction recorded in the law of Moses, the servant of God, because we sinned." What is that malediction? Do you wish us to read it?

'"If you will not serve the Lord your God, I shall lead forth against you a shameless national l, a nation whose tongue you will not understand, and you will be few in number." The three boys in Babylon also made this same point clear when they showed that the kind of punishment visited upon them came about because of what they had done. They made confession to God for the sins of all Jews when they said: "You have handed us over to our enemies, lawless and hateful rebels; to an unjust king; the worst in all the world. Do you see how God fulfilled the curse which said: "You will be few in number?" And the one which said: "I shall lead forth against you a shameless nation?

This is the very thing which Daniel was hinting at when he said: "There came upon us evils such as never occurred under heaven according to what happened in Israel." What evils were these? Mothers ate their own children. Moses foretold this, but Jeremiah shows that it came true. For Moses said: "The refined and delicate woman, so delicate and refined that she would not venture to put her foot upon the step, shall put her hand to the unholy table and eat her own children." But Jeremiah shows that this came true when he said: "The hands of compassionate women boiled their own children."

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"The Jews have fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness have brought them to the level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen."
Yep, this is from Against the Jews Homily I. Here's the whole quote (better translation, I think)

Quote:

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Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers.

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"But it was men, says the Jew, who brought these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the power to accomplish them, unless it had been God's will...Men would certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them...Is it not obvious that it was because God hated you and rejected you once for all?" Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

This is from Homily 6. Here's the rest of the quote.

Quote:

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The Jews will tell you: "Men waged war on us; men plotted against us." When they say this, tell them that men would certainly not have waged war against them unless God had permitted it. Granted that men tore down your walls. Did a man keep the fire from Coming down from heaven? Did a man stop the voice which was continually heard from the propitiatory? Did a man stop the declaration from the stones? Did a man put an end to the anointing of your priests? Did a man take away all those other things? Was it not God who withdrew them? Surely, this is clear to everybody. Why, then, did God take them away? Is it not obvious that he hated you and turned his back on you once and for all? The Jews will say: "By no means! The reason why we do not have these is because we do not have our mother-city." But why do you not have your mother-city? Is it not because God has abandoned you?

Let us, rather, stop their shameless mouths with still more proof. To do this, let me prove from the Scriptures themselves that the destruction of the temple was not the reason for destroying the ritual given to the prophets. The real reason was the wrath of God. And he is much more provoked to anger now, because of the Jews' mad rage against Christ, than he was when they worshipped the calf. Surely, when Moses was their prophet, there was neither temple nor altar. Even though they kept committing countless acts of ungodliness, his gift of prophecy did not desert him. To be sure, he was a great and noble man, but, in addition to hint, there were again seventy other men who, at that time, were proclaimed as prophets.

This was true not only in Moses' day but also thereafter, when they had been given a temple and the rest of the ritual. Even after this temple was burned and they all had been led off to Babylon, Ezechiel and Daniel saw no holy of holies, stood beside no altar. But even though they were in the middle of a barbarian land and in the midst of unclean transgressors of the Law, they were filled with the Spirit and foretold the future, predicting events far more numerous and marvelous than those prophesied by their predecessors. And they saw divine visions insofar as it was possible for them to see.

Tell me this. Why is it that you have no prophets now? Is it not clear that it is because God has turned his back on your religion? Why did he turn his back on you? It is again obvious that he did so because of him whom you crucified' and because of your recklessness in committing that outrage. What makes this so obvious? It is obvious from this: when you Jews lived the life of ungodliness before, you got everything; now, after the cross, although you seem to be living a more moderate life, you 'endure a greater vengeance and have none of your former blessings.'

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"I hate the Jews because they violate the Law. I hate the synagogue because it has the Law and the prophets. It is the duty of all Christians to hate the Jews." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth
This is also from Homily 6. Here's some context.

Quote:

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Do not tell me that the Law and the books of the prophets are there [in the synagogue]. These do not make it a holy place? Which is the better thing? Is it better to have the books there or to speak out the truths they contain? Obviously it is better to speak out these truths and to keep them in your heart. Tell me, what about this? The devil quoted Scripture. This did not make his mouth holy, did it? You cannot say it did, since the devil kept on being the devil. What about the demons? Just because they spoke out and proclaimed: "These men are servants of the most high God and they proclaim to you a way of salvation," do we on this account rank them among the apostles? By no means! Just as before, we keep right on turning our backs on them and hating them.

If spoken words do not make the mouth holy, does the presence of the Scriptures make a place holy? But how could this be right? This is my strongest reason for hating the synagogue: it does have the Law and the prophets. And now I hate it more than if it had none of these. Why is this? Because in the Law and the prophets they have a great allurement and many a snare to attract the more simple-minded sort of men. This is why Paul drove out the demon which did not remain silent but spoke out. As the author of Acts says: "Being very much grieved, he said to the spirit, 'Go out of her.' Why? Because the demon kept shouting: "These men are servants of the most high God.

As long as the demons remained silent, they did not deceive people by their words; when they spoke out, they did so with the intention of enticing many of the simpler sort into listening and heeding them in these other matters. The demons wish to open the door to their deceits and to create confidence in their lies. And so they give some admixture of truth, in the same way that those who mix lethal drugs smear the lip of the cup with honey to make the harmful potion easy to drink.

This is why Paul was very much grieved and why he hurried to stop up the demons' mouths when they took to themselves a dignity which ill became them. This is why I hate the Jews. Although they possess the Law, they put it to outrageous use. For it is by means of the Law that they try to entice and catch the more simpleminded sort of men. If they refused to believe in Christ because they did not believe in the prophets, the charge against them would not be so severe. As it is, they have deprived themselves of every excuse because they say that they do believe in the prophets but they have heaped outrage on him whom the prophets foretold.

In short, if you believe the place is holy because the Law and the books of prophets are there, then it is time for you to believe that idols and the temples of idols are holy. Once, when the Jews were at war, the people of Ashdod conquered them, took their ark, and brought it into their own temple. Did the fact that it contained the ark make their temple a holy place? By no means! It continued to be profane and unclean, as the events straightway proved. For God wanted to teach the enemies of the Jews that the defeat was not due to God's weakness but to the transgressions of those who worshipped him. And so the ark, which had been taken as booty in war, gave proof of its own power in an alien land by twice throwing the idol to the ground so that the idol was broken. The ark was so far from making that temple a holy place that it even openly attacked it.

Look at it in another way. What sort of ark is it that the Jews now have, where we find no propitiatory, no tables of the law, no holy of holies, no veil, no high priest, no incense, no holocaust, no sacrifice, none of the other things that made the ark of old solemn and august? It seems to me that the ark the Jews now have is no better off than those toy arks which you can buy in the market place. in fact it is much worse. Those little toy arks cannot hurt anybody who comes close to them. But the ark which the Jews now have does great harm each day to those who come near it.

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agie95 said:

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Here are just a few quotes by these wonderful saints and other fine men...

"On account of their unbelief and other insults which they heaped upon Jesus, the Jews will not only suffer more than others in the judgment which is believed to impend over the world, but have even already endured such sufferings. For what nation is in exile from their own metropolis, and from the place sacred to the worship of their fathers, save the Jews alone? And the calamities they have suffered because they were a most wicked nation, which although guilty of many other sins, yet has been punished so severely for none as for those that were committed against our Jesus." Origen

---redacted for the nature of salvation--

----redacted for Biblical truth (I.E. most of the Judges)--


Ambrose defended a fellow bishop for burning a synagogue at Callinicum and asked "who cares if a synagogue - home of insanity and unbelief - is destroyed?"

"The Jews sacrifice their children to Satan....they are worse than wild beasts. The synagogue is a brothel, a den of scoundrels, the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults, a criminal assembly of Jews, a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, a gulf and abyss of perdition." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

"The Jews have fallen into a condition lower than the vilest animal. Debauchery and drunkenness have brought them to the level of the lusty goat and the pig. They know only one thing: to satisfy their stomachs, to get drunk, to kill, and beat each other up like stage villains and coachmen." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth

---redacted for the nature of salvation--

At the end of the 4th century AD, the Bishop of Antioch, John Chrysostom (golden tongue John), the great orator, wrote a series of eight sermons against the Jews. To quote him, "the synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater, it is also a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts. No Jew adores God... Jews are inveterate murderers possessed by the devil, their debauchery and drunkenness gives them the manner of the pig." Chrysostom - Golden Mouth


Chrysostom further said that the Jews had become a degenerate race because of their "odious assassination of Christ for which crime there is no expiation possible, no indulgence, no pardon, and for which they will always be a people without a nation, enduring a servitude without end."


"But it was men, says the Jew, who brought these misfortunes upon us, not God. On the contrary, it was in fact God who brought them about. If you attribute them to men, reflect again that even supposing men had dared, they could not have had the power to accomplish them, unless it had been God's will...Men would certainly not have made war unless God had permitted them...Is it not obvious that it was because God hated you and rejected you once for all?" Chrysostom - Golden Mouth only kept because of "God hates you"


---redacted for the theology, not anti-semitism--

---redacted for the theology, not anti-semitism--

---redacted for the nature of salvation---

---redacted for the nature of salvation---


---redacted for the nature of salvation AND theology, not anti-semitism---



---redacted for the nature of salvation---

---redacted for theology---

---redacted for theology, not anti-semitism--

---redacted for theology, not anti-semitism--


---redacted for theology, not anti-semitism--

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you! Augistine Confessions 12.14 Only kept due to the violent nature

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men. Peter the Venerable (supposedly the meekest of all men)
The first line is decidedly not anti-semitic...the last bit can be interpreted that way

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Note, that I didn't delve into context, so I'm guessing that the rest of this is still rooted in theology and salvation...not just race-hating. People didn't use to be very gentle at all. They used very strong language, especially for things as upsetting as denying Christ, while claiming to worship the same God.

looks like K2 covered the ones I didn't remove.
BRB.

The Synagogue one by St. Ambrose I've read before. It's a very interesting document, because it shows a bishop rebuking an emperor on a matter of politics because it touches on faith. You can read it here.

Summary: A bishop was accused of instigating that resulted in the burning of a synagogue in a small town by a non-Christian Count. The Emperor commanded that the people who did it be punished, and that the bishop pay to rebuild it. St Ambrose asks for the punishment to be revoked, on both counts for two main reasons. One is that he says the bishop's defense of himself hasn't been heard yet -- my suspicion is, reading the letter, that the accusation is false. The second is purely political: there's no precedent for it. This is where the quote comes from. The quote is not correct, of course. Here's the actual one:

Quote:

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But what is your motive? Is it because a public building of whatever kind has been burnt, or because it was a synagogue? If you are moved by the burning of a building of no importance (for what could there be in so mean a town?), do you not remember, O Emperor, how many prefects' houses have been burnt at Rome, and no one inflicted punishment for it? And, in truth, if any emperor had desired to punish the deed sharply, he would have injured the cause of him who had suffered so great a loss. Which, then, is more fitting, that a fire in some part of the buildings of Callinicum, or of the city of Rome, should be punished, if indeed it were right at all? At Constantinople lately, the house of the bishop was burnt and your Clemency's son interceded with his father, praying that you would not avenge the insult offered to him, that is, to the son of the emperor, and the burning of the episcopal house. Do you not consider, O Emperor, that if you were to order this deed to be punished, he would again intervene against the punishment? That favor was, however, fittingly obtained by the son from the father, for it was worthy of him first to forgive the injury done to himself. That was a good division in the distribution of favor, that the son should be entreated for his own loss, the father for that of the son. Here there is nothing for you to keep back for your son. Take heed, then, lest you derogate anything from God.

There is, then, no adequate cause for such a commotion, that the people should be so severely punished for the burning of a building, and much less since it is the burning of a synagogue, a home of unbelief, a house of impiety, a receptacle of folly, which God Himself has condemned. For thus we read, where the Lord our God speaks by the mouth of the prophet Jeremiah: "And I will do to this house, which is called by My Name, wherein you trust, and to the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh, and I will cast you forth from My sight, as I cast forth your brethren, the whole seed of Ephraim. And do not pray for that people, and do not ask mercy for them, and do not come near Me on their behalf, for I will not hear you. Or do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah?" (Jeremiah 7:14) God forbids intercession to be made for those.

And certainly, if I were pleading according to the law of nations, I could tell how many of the Church's basilicas the Jews burnt in the time of the Emperor Julian: two at Damascus, one of which is scarcely now repaired, and this at the cost of the Church, not of the Synagogue; the other basilica still is a rough mass of shapeless ruins. Basilicas were burnt at Gaza, Ascalon, Berytus, and in almost every place in those parts, and no one demanded punishment. And at Alexandria a basilica was burnt by heathen and Jews, which surpassed all the rest. The Church was not avenged, shall the Synagogue be so?

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Quote:

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How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you! Augistine Confessions 12.14

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This one is especially funny because it's not right at all.

Here's another translation:

Quote:

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Scripture's enemies I vehemently hate (cf Psalm 138:21-22). I wish that you would slay them with a two-edged sword (cf Psalm 149:6); then they would no longer be its enemies. The sense in which I wish them dead is this: I love them that they may die unto themselves and live to you (cf Rom 14:7-8; Cor 5:14-15)

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This is from his Confessions, 12.14.17. The fun part, is that he's not talking about Jews at all, but Manichaeans. In contrary to being Jews, they actually rejected the Old Testament in it's entirety. Augustine once was a Manichaean, and he was frustrated that he could not convince them.
Here's another quote from Confessions 12.10.10 with similar description about himself: "Let me not be my own life; evil was the life I lived of myself. I was death to me, but in you I begin to live again...I have believed your scriptures"

I'm really enjoying this.