I'm not sure how information could be non physical. I do empathise with silents argument in so far as a property of a composite part need not be shared by the whole and vice versa. For instance all life is made up of non living atoms. The total structure takes on a unique and incredible behavior totally foreign to all other assemblies of matter.

But I don't see how you could muster more than a compatabalist free will with either a quantum or determined universe though. How do dice help?

Action and decisions are partially filtered through a brain which can observe realize and adjust. The question is where in that process can something non determined happen given an absolute understanding of every single interconnected process. I frankly don't know. But I do also realize I could never have imagined how something like life could be plausible with only knowing of matter and the laws of the universe. Our info is incomplete, but based on what I know I can't find a solution that allows a self the way we feel like we are. But I'm not near sure enough to ignore my plausibly false internal suggestion that I am choosing.

I'm saying that once a single observer has attached any meaning at all to a symbol than that symbol, in terms of it's existence and impact on the universe, has at least in one localized instance more then it did prior to being identified as a symbol.

The second a single rational mind has identified the letter a or the phoneme |a| with anything more then the physical apparatus that make up the lines or the sounds then it is no longer just those lines or sounds. Whenever it exists within the visual or auditory realm of the observer it has an objective, measurable impact on that observer, although the actual impact itself is subjective.

In other words, I think the sound |a| in a universe without observers is fundamentally different then the sound |a| in a universe with at least one single rational observer. Two otherwise identical things that impact the universe differently are not truly identical, although nothing about they, themselves, has changed.

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But I don't see how you could muster more than a compatabalist free will with either a quantum or determined universe though. How do dice help?

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This is a really good question and one I continue to grapple with. Indeterminacy at the very least underscores individuality. If we were to perfectly copy Silent or Aggrad down to the smallest particle, from the moment the copy and the original coexisted their paths would split. Like, even if we were to theoretically place both in exactly identical environments, I think their choices would vary from each other more and more as time went on.

However, I find it difficult to construct how that scenario proves free will itself. I do think there is a very clear case that the mere belief our choices matter ultimately matters. It's the apparatus that we appeal to when we attempt to rationally appeal to ourselves and others. In a sense, free will functions as if it were real even if it doesn't actually exist beyond the conceptualization of it's existence, heh. You could almost say that free will is the ultimate symbol. Perhaps it's mere existence is predicated on the belief of it's existence.

Wild.

Silent For Too Long said:

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That's a good question, but it does.

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As it stands, this is a completely unsubstantiated claim.

Really? Then where do Thor and Unicorns come from? What are the objective criteria of beauty? Mathematically demonstrate delicious.

Fly in a dream. Or in a comic book. Or in a movie. Imagine a world different from this one in absolutely any way at all.

Matter and Energy cannot be created or destroyed. Information gets created and destroyed as a a matter of course.

You substantiate that claim ever single day and do it so effortlessly you obviously aren't even aware of it anymore.

You don't need to destroy matter or energy. Life is made of matter and energy and it can be created or destroyed, so can stars. Information exists as an arrangement just as life does. And it need not be objective, even if the interpretation process is dependent on the individual brain chemistry , even if the memory false, it's still physical . The idea, the memory, the active thought, the barely conscious dream, are all electrochemical. We can watch which part of the brain is operating them.

I think the subjective experience of ultimate control or the "inner passenger" is simply an evolutionary adaptation that makes us value our lives moreso than we otherwise would. Helps with self-preservation.

I would consider life at it's most basic level to be a rudimentary form of information. And, yes, of course there is a physical component to the way we currently store and process information, but the components themselves are almost completely arbitrary. Carbon based, silicon based, pen and paper, sand and sticks, a pile of stones, beads and string, information can be rooted in pretty much anything you can think of. The information itself isn't intrinsically grounded in the physical properties of the energy and matter we repurpose to store and express it, other then the mere accident of it being readily available to easily manipulate.

A woman I work with is a strong "J". My "P"ness drives her crazy!

Commander (ENTJ)

I suppose that fits - Now get back to work!

So? Just because most any system would work doesn't mean it's not physical. They are all 100% physical methods of information. From step A to Z each step is part of our universe. It need not be objective, or true in any sense, as lies and falsehoods are information also. It need not be an intrinsically information storing system. Just a marvelous physical system that allows for a thing like information. The question is, in that marvelous physical system, is there room for "us" as we think we exists. My answer is maybe, but I lean toward no.

ISFJ-Defender

Makes sense. I am a retired cop.