Romans Chapter 9 - Free Will

1,408 Views | 22 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by 10andBOUNCE
waco_aggie05
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AG
I read Romans chapter 9 last night, in particular from about verse 14 on, and was curious other people's views on how this relates to each of us having free will.

As a Baptist I've always been taught that we each have free will and have until the moment we breathe our last in order to accept or deny Christ. I understand part of the message being presented here with 'God being God' and who are we to question His ways. Mainly wanted to get opinions on how others interpret God hardening hearts on some and showing mercy on others and how it corresponds with free will.

Hope this rambling makes sense.
Martin Q. Blank
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Yes, God has mercy on some and hardens others. This doesn't mean people are coerced to do something they don't want to do. It's really a pointless thing to think about other than to know God is in control and he is glorified by both Christians and non, as subjects of mercy and justice/wrath.
agie95
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AG
In the story of Moses and Pharaoh, the Hebrew really makes it clearer. God is giving Pharaoh the strength per say to continue Pharaoh beliefs. When it says hardens his heart, this is not God saying I am not going to allow Pharaoh to see. Pharaoh is already stubborn and won't let go. God is allowing Pharaoh to continue in his path.

R. Fohrman has a really good book about this. One of the best books I have ever read. The Exodus You Almost Passed Over

If you sign up for a free account from Aleph Beta you can watch 30 minutes free each month. Here is a link to a video series that covers some of what is in the book.

Aleph Beta
waco_aggie05
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I think if Paul spent time addressing it its not pointless to ponder on. I guess it depends on how you define the hardening of someone's heart.
AGinHI
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waco_aggie05 said:

Mainly wanted to get opinions on how others interpret God hardening hearts on some and showing mercy on others and how it corresponds with free will.
If it is true that God hardens the hearts of some people then that interpretation contradicts other scriptural truths that He desires the salvation of all people:

1 Timothy 2:4
Quote:

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9

Quote:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Martin Q. Blank
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If God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, he shouldn't have hardened Pharaoh's heart or hated Esau.
AGinHI
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As you can probably tell, I rarely post here much anymore.

I am LDS and I believe the translation is incorrect. The Lord did not harden the heart of Pharaoh. Pharaoh hardened his heart.

However, understanding how people feel about LDS, I only posted scriptural references for people to chew on.

As far as hating Esau, the word hated in Hebrew means to be loved less than someone else.

Compare Genesis 29:30-31
Quote:

And [Jacob] went in also unto Rachel, and he loved also Rachel more than Leah, and served with him yet seven other years.

And when the Lord saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren.

Further, studying scripture will reveal the Lord hates sin not the sinner.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

I am LDS and I believe the translation is incorrect.
The Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT, Latin translation of Hebrew OT, Latin translation of Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT, Latin translation of Greek NT, English translation of Latin translation of Hebrew OT, English translation of Latin translation of Greek NT, English translation of Hebrew OT, English translation of Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT, or English translation of Greek NT? Because they are all unanimous.
AGinHI
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AG
I read the King James version wherein it is stated:


Quote:

And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.


I also believe in modern day prophets and apostles as well as prophecy and revelation.

But, my beliefs are not the issue. The scriptures speak for themselves.

That Heavenly Father is not willing that any should perish is true contradicts that He also hardens the hearts of some people.

Does God contradict Himself?

I don't believe so.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

That Heavenly Father is not willing that any should perish is true contradicts that He also hardens the hearts of some people.

Does God contradict Himself?

I don't believe so.
Then I guess only you do.
AGinHI
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AG
Well, I guess that's why OP requested "opinions on how others interpret God hardening hearts on some and showing mercy on others"

Did my opinion not suffice?

Edit: maybe in addition to R, P, and S we need designations for different religions, so like minded people can congregate on one thread without interruption.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

Did my opinion not suffice?
Your opinion so far is the Bible contradicts itself, but not God. So the translation is bad, but I'm going to quote it anyway.
AGinHI
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Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

Did my opinion not suffice?
Your opinion so far is the Bible contradicts itself, but not God. So the translation is bad, but I'm going to quote it anyway.

Quote:

When holy men of God write or speak by the power of the Holy Ghost, their words "shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation"
Martin Q. Blank
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Wherein lies the error? You said the translation, but then quoted the KJV which says Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God.
AGinHI
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LDS belief from prophecy is that "Pharaoh hardened his heart." That is my belief.



I now return to the OP and other people's interpretations: how does one reconcile contradicting scripture and a preferential God?

Like it or not, I submitted my answer.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

LDS belief from prophecy is that "Pharaoh hardened his heart." That is my belief.
The Bible says Pharaoh hardened his heart. No LDS prophecy needed for that. It also says God hardened his heart.
AGinHI
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This is why I only posted scripture in my first reply.

FYI, LDS belief
Quote:

The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suffered the loss of many plain and precious parts. 'We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter-days.

In short my response was the translation is incorrect.


The question remains: how do others reconcile contradicting scripture and a preferential God?
Zobel
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AG
Let's not confuse God's love and wrath for specific men as they are in a moment with specific men as they were created in His Image and Likeness, the design plan, as it were. Let's denote specific with general by convention as love and Love. God is Love, and to that extent there can be no changing. He does not change at all (with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning), so His Love cannot change. Yet He is anthropomorphized into change with regard to men, sometimes by the intercession of other men some men He loves, and His love changes with their actions. So we are presented with a problem. I don't believe this is a pre-ordained disposition toward some or the other. He does not change, we change in response to Him.

Even so, this is not even as simple as a linear relationship (balance of Good vs Evil). A man who repents undoes his evil, a man that turns from his righteousness and commits sin causes God to forget his righteousness "None of the righteous things / offenses that person has done will be remembered." Why? "Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live."

Quote:

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!


You are supposed to love your enemies because God Loves them, even as he hates them. His Love comes freely from Him; His hate is only from us. We who are evil are we who are yet in sin. Not one is good because only One is Holy. Yet we are not Evil.

St John Chrysostom on Romans 9 says that St Paul's writings about vessels and clay is not to teach against free will but to teach obedience and fear of calling God to account.
Quote:

Here it is not to do away with free-will that he says this, but to show, up to what point we ought to obey God. For in respect of calling God to account, we ought to be as little disposed to it as the clay is. For we ought to abstain not from gainsaying or questioning only, but even from speaking or thinking of it at all, and to become like that lifeless matter, which follows the potter's hands, and lets itself be drawn about anywhere he may please. And this is the only point he applied the illustration to, not, that is, to any enunciation of the rule of life, but to the complete obedience and silence enforced upon us.

And specifically on free will:
Quote:

Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, that is, a man who by his own hard-heartedness had kindled the wrath of God. For after enjoying much long-suffering, he became no better, but remained unimproved. Wherefore he calls him not only a vessel of wrath, but also one fitted for destruction. That is, fully fitted indeed, but by his own proper self. For neither had God left out anything of the things likely to recover him, nor did he leave out anything of those that would ruin him, and put him beyond any forgiveness. Yet still, though God knew this, He endured him with much long-suffering, being willing to bring him to repentance. For had He not willed this, then He would not have been thus long-suffering. But as he would not use the long-suffering in order to repentance, but fully fitted himself for wrath, He used him for the correction of others, through the punishment inflicted upon him making them better, and in this way setting forth His power.

Whence then are some vessels of wrath, and some of mercy? Of their own free choice. God, however, being very good, shows the same kindness to both. For it was not those in a state of salvation only to whom He showed mercy, but also Pharaoh, as far as His part went. For of the same long-suffering, both they and he had the advantage. And if he was not saved, it was quite owing to his own will: since, as for what concerns God, he had as much done for him as they who were saved.

God Loves all men equally. God does not love all men equally. I'm on my own in an analogy here, but I would say that God's Love shines on all without variance, because it is perfect Love; His love is perceived by us as a reflection in our own tarnished mirrors.

St Maximos says:

For him who is perfect in love and has reached the summit of dispassion there is no difference between his own and another's, or between Christians and unbelievers, or between slave and free, or even between male and female. But because he has risen above the tyranny of the passions and has fixed his attention on the single nature of man, he looks on all in the same way and shows the same disposition to all.

The person who loves God cannot help loving every man as himself, even though he is grieved by the passions of those who are not yet purified. But when they amend their lives, his delight is indescribable and knows no bounds.

He who loves Me, says the Lord, will keep My commandments; and 'this is My commandment, that you love one another.' Thus he who does not love his neighbor fails to keep the commandment, and so cannot love the Lord.

You have not yet acquired perfect love if your regard for people is still swayed by their characters for example, if, for some particular reason, you love one person and hate another, or if for the same reason you sometimes love and sometimes hate the same person.

He who loves Christ is bound to imitate Him to the best of his ability. Christ, for example, was always conferring blessings on people; He was long-suffering when they were ungrateful and blasphemed Him; and when they beat Him and put Him to death, He endured it, imputing no evil at all to anyone. These are the three acts which manifest love for one's neighbor. If he is incapable of them, the person who says that he loves Christ or has attained the kingdom deceives himself. For 'not everyone who says to Me: "Lord, Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of My Father'; and again, 'He who loves Me will keep My commandments'.

Has someone vilified you? Do not hate him; hate the vilification and the demon which induced him to utter it. If you hate the vilifier, you have hated a man and so broken the commandment. What he has done in word you do in action. To keep the commandment, show the qualities of love and help him in any way you can, so that you may deliver him from evil.

Many have said much about love, but you will find love itself only if you seek it among the disciples of Christ. For only they have true Love as love's teacher. 'Though I have the gift of prophecy', says St. Paul, 'and know all mysteries and knowledge... and have no love, it profits me nothing'. He who possesses love possesses God Himself, for 'God is love'.

'But I say to you,' says the Lord, 'love your enemies do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you.' Why did He command this? To free you from hatred, irritation, anger and rancor, and to make you worthy of the supreme gift of perfect love. And you cannot attain such love if you do not imitate God and love all men equally. For God loves all men equally and wishes them 'to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth'.

Edited to clean up / clarify some quotes.
BusterAg
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AG
With Pharaoh, how easy would it have been for him to capitulate for the moment, and then, when things settled down, go right back to where he was before Moses and God started working on him. In Exodus, that is ultimately what he does, chasing down the Israelites with his army after he had already let them go. If Pharaoh was never going to turn to faith anyways, hardening his heart to make a decision today that his ego would ultimately force him to make next week does not seem inconsistent with a God who wants all to come to know him. So God could have been using the opportunity of hardening Pharaoh's heart for whatever purposes he had designed, without influencing Pharaoh's free will.

I just doubt that God would force faith or obedience on anyone. That seems to be universal for some reason. However, the idea that there is an interventionist God that will influence certain decisions without changing a person's mind or character is still consistent.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:

In short my response was the translation is incorrect.
Which translation? And which verses? What's the correct translation?

Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT
Latin translation of Hebrew OT
Latin translation of Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT
Latin translation of Greek NT
English translation of Latin translation of Hebrew OT
English translation of Latin translation of Greek NT
English translation of Hebrew OT
English translation of Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT
English translation of Greek NT
AGinHI
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AG
Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:

In short my response was the translation is incorrect.
Which translation? And which verses? What's the correct translation?

Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT
Latin translation of Hebrew OT
Latin translation of Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT
Latin translation of Greek NT
English translation of Latin translation of Hebrew OT
English translation of Latin translation of Greek NT
English translation of Hebrew OT
English translation of Septuagint translation of Hebrew OT
English translation of Greek NT


Quote:

The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suffered the loss of many plain and precious parts. 'We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter-days.

What the entire quote above suggests is: all of the translations regarding Exodus 9:12 are incorrect. What LDS believe is Heavenly Father has revealed to modern prophets that the correct translation is, again, as previously mentioned: Pharaoh hardened his heart.
BusterAg
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AG
Quote:

What the entire quote above suggests is: all of the translations regarding Exodus 9:12 are incorrect. What LDS believe is Heavenly Father has revealed to modern prophets that the correct translation is, again, as previously mentioned: Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Thanks for this explanation. I learned something new about LDS.

I would say that this is a pretty uniquely LDS point of view, but I do understand your point.
AGinHI
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AG
My apologies for not being clear from the beginning.
10andBOUNCE
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For me Romans 9 also ties in to the concept of Gods elect, which is mentioned previously in Romans and several other places. This is something I have spent a lot of thought on and it's extremely challenging to try to grasp. But I personally do align more on the Calvinist side of the spectrum. At the end of the day hopefully we believers can all agree that God is sovereign and he does work everything out for his good and his glory.
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