quote:

---

I admire your devotion. I just can't get there, however. I still believe that evil needs to be checked. Strong men need to protect.

For such a general statement as yours to be true, it has to be true to the very extremes. You put me in the same room as Pol Pot in 1968, and he gets a bullet to the head, no remorse or guilt from me. So, there has to be some exceptions.

---

Understandable position. Obviously I would not hold the same view, but I certainly can understand such a view.

quote:

---

The trouble is where to draw the line. On this issue, I don't trust the U.S. government with civilian executions.

---

Yeah, given the sketchy history of the death penalty in America, I don't see how anyone can trust them w/ civilian executions.

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

You keep repeating the same thing without answering the question. Bearing the image of God did not negate his laws on the death penalty. Agree or no? He gives this power to the civil government. Agree or no? Jesus acknowledged this in his own trial in which the power was misused. Agree or no? Paul acknowledged this in his own trial in which the power was misused. Agree or no?

---

Whether or not the state has such God-given authority is irrelevant to whether or not Christians should support the exercise of such an act.

---

It's directly relevant to Christians as we believe in God and his authority.

---

I disagree that it's relevant to how we, as Christians, are called to live. God used Nebuchadnezzar, but it doesn't mean we endorse what Nebuchadnezzar did. Rome may have had the "right" to execute people, but that doesn't mean Roman executions were just and should be supported by followers of the nonviolent Christ. Based on Christ's teachings, I cannot support the killing of anyone. That means I cannot support the use of state-sanctioned killing. Whether or not the state possesses such a right is irrelevant to how I, as a follower of Christ, am called to act towards others.

quote:

---

God used Nebuchadnezzar, but it doesn't mean we endorse what Nebuchadnezzar did. Rome may have had the "right" to execute people, but that doesn't mean Roman executions were just and should be supported by followers of the nonviolent Christ.

---

That's a false analogy. God established civil government for a good - civil order, including the laws and use of capital punishment. Do you disagree that he did that? He never established the sins of Nebuchadnezzar.

To make the analogy would call into question anything God establishes as a good. It would make man the judge of God.

quote:

---

quote:

---

God used Nebuchadnezzar, but it doesn't mean we endorse what Nebuchadnezzar did. Rome may have had the "right" to execute people, but that doesn't mean Roman executions were just and should be supported by followers of the nonviolent Christ.

---

That's a false analogy. God established civil government for a good - civil order, including the laws and use of capital punishment. Do you disagree that he did that? He never established the sins of Nebuchadnezzar.

To make the analogy would call into question anything God establishes as a good. It would make man the judge of God.

---

You seem to be confusing the role of the state and the role of Christ's followers. Sure, if you want to believe the state has the God-given right to execute citizens, go right ahead. My concern is for the way Christ taught His followers to live. As w/ the adulterous woman, Christ didn't dispute their legal right to execute the woman. What He did address though was them as individuals. Let he without sin cast the first stone. I'm not without sin, so I won't cast the first stone. I'm not without sin, so I won't advocate others cast that first stone on my behalf. The powers of this world are going to do what they will, but as I've said already, we aren't called to be like the powers of the world. We are called to be a witness to the nonviolent Christ. I cannot do that while also championing the destruction of those that bear His image, no matter how "just" man thinks it is.

Are there any early church leaders who defended Christian support of capital punishment prior to Constantine?

quote:

---

You seem to be confusing the role of the state and the role of Christ's followers.

---

I have established the role of the state - civil order with the use of civil laws. What do you think the role of the state is?

quote:

---

quote:

---

You seem to be confusing the role of the state and the role of Christ's followers.

---

I have established the role of the state - civil order with the use of civil laws. What do you think the role of the state is?

---

My opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with the role of the state, but everything to do with how Christ taught His followers to live. The role of the state, whether they possess the right to execute citizens or not, is irrelevant to whether or not Christ's followers should support the exercise of that right.

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

You seem to be confusing the role of the state and the role of Christ's followers.

---

I have established the role of the state - civil order with the use of civil laws. What do you think the role of the state is?

---

My opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with the role of the state, but everything to do with how Christ taught His followers to live. The role of the state, whether they possess the right to execute citizens or not, is irrelevant to whether or not Christ's followers should support the exercise of that right.

---

Do you have a habit of not engaging in conversation? Several times I have tried to get to the substance of your argument with simple questions and you use it to get on a soap box. What is the God given role of civil government?

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

You seem to be confusing the role of the state and the role of Christ's followers.

---

I have established the role of the state - civil order with the use of civil laws. What do you think the role of the state is?

---

My opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with the role of the state, but everything to do with how Christ taught His followers to live. The role of the state, whether they possess the right to execute citizens or not, is irrelevant to whether or not Christ's followers should support the exercise of that right.

---

Do you have a habit of not engaging in conversation? Several times I have tried to get to the substance of your argument with simple questions and you use it to get on a soap box. What is the God given role of civil government?

---

You keep asking questions that aren't relevant, IMO. I don't care what the role of the state is. I care about how Christ taught us to live and treat others. That's why I'm opposed to the death penalty. You don't find that answer sufficient apparently. When you ask a relevant question, I'll answer. But the role of the state has absolutely nothing to do with my opposition to the death penalty.

Have I said that the state doesn't have the "right" to execute? All I've said is I don't believe that we, as Christians, should support the exercise of such "right".

One of the means the state uses to administer "justice" is via lawsuits. But just because the state possesses such a right, that doesn't mean Christians should go around suing others. Same w/ capital punishment. Sure the state may possess such a "right", but that doesn't mean Christians should go around endorsing it.

Why do you keep putting "right" in quotations? Do you not believe it is given by God?

At Jesus' own trial, he did not make the argument you are making. Same with Paul. They both acknowledged the legitimacy of the trial and the civil government (as it is established and sanctioned by God), although false witnesses and mob rule led to injustice.

Do you endorse ecclesiastical government?

Again, whether the state has the "right" to execute its citizens is not a relevant question as that has nothing to do w/ my opposition of the death penalty. You seem to be wanting to argue more about my views on voluntaryism than my views on capital punishment, but that's not what this thread is about. I oppose the death penalty, as I oppose lawsuits, because I believe they are contrary to how we, as Christians, are instructed to treat others.

We do not seem to be getting anywhere, so unless you want to discuss my reasons for opposing the death penalty, then I'm going to have to move on.

Feel free to come back when you want to engage with anything I post.

quote:

---

Feel free to come back when you want to engage with anything I post.

---

Will do. That'll likely happen when you post something relevant to the actual discussion.

quote:

---

For such a general statement as yours to be true, it has to be true to the very extremes. You put me in the same room as Pol Pot in 1968, and he gets a bullet to the head, no remorse or guilt from me. So, there has to be some exceptions.

---

Yeah, think of the death penalty like a fire extinguisher. Not something you want to use often, but there when you need it.

Since this is a religious forum I will post this thought.

When Jesus was put on trial before the Jews. Pilot not wanting to execute a innocent man thought he had a solution.

In accordance with Roman custom of honoring local religious custom he would free one prisoner who was sentenced to die. So he offered up Jesus, a perfect man, a man with no sin, innocent as a unborn child. and he offered up Barabas an known murderer. The thought was surely they would pick innocence over wickedness.

The people chose to give this gift to the murderer and execute the innocent.

I say welcome to a world that still does this.

quote:

---

quote:

---

I believe, as a Christian, supporting the killing of anyone goes against the teachings of Christ. Like I said, if you want to argue the state has such a right, go right ahead. That doesn't mean we, as Christians, should support its use.

---

Assuming the state has this right from God (which it does), how are Christians not supposed to support its use? That would be not supporting God's civil order.

---

By that justification, if you had been a Christian in Germany 70 years ago, would you have supported Hitler's stances against "evil"? How about Spain 600 years ago.....would you have supported the inquisition since it was instituted primarily by the state? Would you have sympathized with the Roman leaders when they executed Christians (state authorized and they were placed there by God)?

quote:

---

quote:

---

I'm pro-death penalty - Life to me is so precious that if someone knowingly and intentionally took another's life death should be the due penalty - but I would happily give it up to abortion.

---

I am not necessarily morally opposed to the proposition that some people deserve death, but, I approach the question from a different angle. . . .

Is the power to execute one of its own citizens a power you wish the government to have? Should a state have the right to judge someone as being deserving of death and then be permitted to carry out that sentence? How about a small homogeneous and biased group? Or an individual?

Who are you comfortable with having this power?

---

Yes, even though it could conceivably mean my own death as a believer someday.

quote:

---

By that justification, if you had been a Christian in Germany 70 years ago, would you have supported Hitler's stances against "evil"? How about Spain 600 years ago.....would you have supported the inquisition since it was instituted primarily by the state? Would you have sympathized with the Roman leaders when they executed Christians (state authorized and they were placed there by God)?

---

You put "evil" in quotations, I assume to establish that it wasn't actually evil and therefore an unjust use of the sword. I don't support or sympathize with that. Same with the inquisition and Roman execution of Christians. Even Jesus acknowledged Pilate had his authority from God, even though it was an unjust execution.