Prevalence of Homosexuality in men is stable throughout time..

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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 9:26p, 4/16/16
quote:
Obviously society seems to be embracing the "love wins" philosophy, and I have no doubt that pedophilia will be seen as more and more "natural" as society continues to evolve, until the point that saving 8 year olds from the affections of grown men will be seen as bigotry and being on the wrong side of history.


The fact that you believe this scenario is on the way only reinforces for me that it's not.


This irrational prediction is proof positive that your belief system severely clouds your judgement.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to Amazing Moves • 9:56p, 4/16/16
AG
So ridiculous. Never mind that as acceptance of gay people has moved up and up, acceptance of pedophiles maintained a pretty constant level or even become even more frowned upon than ever.
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In reply to Beer Baron • 1:13a, 4/17/16
That's a pretty damn radical thought process. I would hope most Christians don't share this line of thinking. At what point do you finally break through and see the logic?
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John Maplethorpe
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1:56p, 4/17/16
AG
There are a few close minded bigots on this thread with a poor understanding of science. They sure like hiding behind a semi-******ed 2000 year old book to express and justify their insecurity.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Amazing Moves • 2:09p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
quote:
Obviously society seems to be embracing the "love wins" philosophy, and I have no doubt that pedophilia will be seen as more and more "natural" as society continues to evolve, until the point that saving 8 year olds from the affections of grown men will be seen as bigotry and being on the wrong side of history.



The fact that you believe this scenario is on the way only reinforces for me that it's not.


This irrational prediction is proof positive that your belief system severely clouds your judgement.


You have no clue, none. Your belief system that there is no objective morality stops you from claiming that pedophilia is wrong regardless of environment, and mandates that homosexuality must be immoral at times. My belief system is the only one preaching sanity, that women and men belong together, that sexual attraction to children is not natural, and the nuclear family consists of mother father and children.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Beer Baron • 2:13p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
So ridiculous. Never mind that as acceptance of gay people has moved up and up, acceptance of pedophiles maintained a pretty constant level or even become even more frowned upon than ever.


More frowned upon than ever? I guess the Gays have stopped letting NAMBLA March in their parade, I guess society will accept boas and assless chaps, but it's bad PR to be marching with bold pederasts. I've seen nothing that shows pedophilia is more frowned upon than ever, I've seen people affirmatively arguing for the natural state of child sexual attraction, while maintaining that until society changes their mind on proper consent, it will remain illegal.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 2:15p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
There are a few close minded bigots on this thread with a poor understanding of science. They sure like hiding behind a semi-******ed 2000 year old book to express and justify their insecurity.


What's the science? That people's desires render them unable to restrain their actions? And I like how you use the word bigot and then refer to the bible as ******ed.
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John Maplethorpe
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2:22p, 4/17/16
AG
Calling the bible ruhtarded isn't bigoted. It's an opnion formed after years of careful study. Now calling a person ruhtarded for some reason or another could be bigotry.



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John Maplethorpe
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2:24p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
Your belief system that there is no objective morality stops you from claiming that pedophilia is wrong regardless of environment


Here we go again. As opposed to your subjective morality that you call objective just because you declare it so?
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 2:32p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
quote:
Your belief system that there is no objective morality stops you from claiming that pedophilia is wrong regardless of environment


Here we go again. As opposed to your subjective morality that you call objective just because you declare it so?


Is saying "sexual activity with children is always wrong" objective or subjective?
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 2:33p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
Calling the bible ruhtarded isn't bigoted. It's an opnion formed after years of careful study. Now calling a person ruhtarded for some reason or another could be bigotry.





It's an opinion held by someone whose opinion is treasured only by the bigoted and ******ed
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John Maplethorpe
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 2:37p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:


Is saying "sexual activity with children is always wrong" objective or subjective?


It's a statement and moral code I agree with. You may say it's an objective code. But it didn't arise from any objective moral system.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 3:08p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
quote:


Is saying "sexual activity with children is always wrong" objective or subjective?


It's a statement and moral code I agree with. You may say it's an objective code. But it didn't arise from any objective moral system.


How does an objective code arise from a subjective moral system? The objective code is nothing more than an instance of objective morality.
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John Maplethorpe
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 3:30p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:

How does an objective code arise from a subjective moral system? The objective code is nothing more than an instance of objective morality.


Quite easily. Objective doesn't mean correct or just. It just means defined, clear, conceived with a goal in mind.

"Jews shall not be allowed to own property in Germany." is an objective code. That doesn't mean the underlying philosophy is validated.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 3:34p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
quote:

How does an objective code arise from a subjective moral system? The objective code is nothing more than an instance of objective morality.


Quite easily. Objective doesn't mean correct or just. It just means defined, clear, conceived with a goal in mind.

"Jews shall not be allowed to own property in Germany." is an objective code. That doesn't mean the underlying philosophy is validated.


Jewish property ownership isnt a moral action. Explain your case as it regards this scenario"nothing is inherently right or wrong, but is subject to the different environmental concerns.....within this belief we can say that having sexual relations with a child is inherently wrong always even considering any environmental concerns"
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John Maplethorpe
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3:50p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
Jewish property ownership isnt a moral action.
of course it is in this context. Depriving a race an opportunity to own property is a moral issue.

I didn't use the term "nothing is "inherently" right or wrong. More correctly my position is that right and wrong are subjective human tools. Some people are uncomfortable with this. They've succumbed to the emotional ' argument from incredulity' without realizing it.


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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 3:57p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
quote:
Jewish property ownership isnt a moral action.
of course it is in this context. Depriving a race an opportunity to own property is a moral issue.

I didn't use the term "nothing is "inherently" right or wrong. More correctly my position is that right and wrong are subjective human tools. Some people are uncomfortable with this. They've succumbed to the emotional ' argument from incredulity' without realizing it.




You can't have it both ways John, removing emotions from it, would you argue that its not always immoral to have sexual relations with a prepubescent child?
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John Maplethorpe
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4:00p, 4/17/16
AG


Edit: was confused by the double negative. Its wrong.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 4:04p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:


Edit: was confused by the double negative. Its wrong.


But it can't be, if it were so it would be objectively immoral to have sex with a prepubescent child, regardless of what society said.
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John Maplethorpe
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4:13p, 4/17/16
AG
That's your assertion but nothing changes whether you call it objective or subjective. Where does this objective code come from and why can nobody agree what it is?

Is it subjectively immoral to murder innocent children? Even your supposed guide to subjective morality is quite flexible answering this question.
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Beer Baron
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 6:55p, 4/17/16
AG

quote:
More frowned upon than ever? I guess the Gays have stopped letting NAMBLA March in their parade,
And there you have it, folks. The "gays are pedophiles/allies of pedophiles" angle. I'd genuinely thought Bustup to be above this despite our differences of opinion, but clearly I was incorrect.

Not that it has anything to do with the argument we're having, but can you please provide me a link from a source other than things like "The Dark Truth About Homosexuality" to substantiate your claim that NAMBLA is in any way considered a mainstream gay rights organization?

Even if every gay pride parade was called the "NAMBLA Gay rights parade, sponsored by NAMBLA" it wouldn't change the fact that our society at large is much more child-friendly than it used to be. Kids are more protected than ever from child predators, child pornography, and also in employment situations. While it used to be quite common to marry off young girls to adult men (in God-sanctioned, heterosexual marriages), that's not a thing anymore. It's an absolute lie to claim that our culture has moved even one iota toward accepting or legalizing relationships between adults and children, and that would be the case even if the Supreme Court had ruled the opposite way last June.


quote:
I guess society will accept boas and assless chaps, but it's bad PR to be marching with bold pederasts.
Yes. One of these things is patently, on its face, much worse than the other. Society is also much more accepting of people listening to Nickelback than it is of pedophiles. Great point there.



quote:
I've seen nothing that shows pedophilia is more frowned upon than ever,
You're either completely delusional or lying through your teeth. Given your posts of late, I'd say it's probably the latter.


quote:
I've seen people affirmatively arguing for the natural state of child sexual attraction, while maintaining that until society changes their mind on proper consent, it will remain illegal.

You've seen people arguing that child attraction is a natural thing that occurs. You haven't seen anyone here arguing that the legality of acting on that natural attraction can or should change.
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 7:17p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
There are a few close minded bigots on this thread with a poor understanding of science. They sure like hiding behind a semi-******ed 2000 year old book to express and justify their insecurity.
Why are these trash statements allowed on this board?
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Beer Baron
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In reply to haircut • 7:20p, 4/17/16
AG
Because not everyone agrees that your book is special.
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In reply to Beer Baron • 7:24p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
Because not everyone agrees that your book is special.
There are many things others believe that I don't. My comment was more directed at a personality flaw more than the book itself. Just seems lame for an R&P board.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to John Maplethorpe • 8:07p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
That's your assertion but nothing changes whether you call it objective or subjective. Where does this objective code come from and why can nobody agree what it is?

Is it subjectively immoral to murder innocent children? Even your supposed guide to subjective morality is quite flexible answering this question.


I think murdering innocent children is objectively immoral obviously, and I understand what the words actually mean instead of some euphemism for "things I like or things I don't like" so don't try and spring some trap by mentioning the amalekites. I know where the objective code comes from, and I know why there is such great universal acceptance on issues like child molestations, rape, murder, and other heinous crimes AGAINST nature (hint, they don't use that to mean the observable world). Who has a problem agreeing with what is universal law? You ask any one in the world if it's okay to wantonly kill people and they'll answer in the negative. Those whose cultures condone killing carry some sort of stipulation, like "it's not okay to kill people, but infidels aren't really people" or "killing is wrong, but an unborn child is just a mass of cells not a person". We used to create propaganda to dehumanize our enemies in war to make them easier to override our basic adherence to the tenets of natural law, now we do it to override our basic unease at seeing two men kiss, or hear about abortion, or whatever the case is.

Going back to the first part of your statement, how can you argue something is objectively wrong, but argue against objective morality?
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Beer Baron • 8:18p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:

quote:
More frowned upon than ever? I guess the Gays have stopped letting NAMBLA March in their parade,
And there you have it, folks. The "gays are pedophiles/allies of pedophiles" angle. I'd genuinely thought Bustup to be above this despite our differences of opinion, but clearly I was incorrect.

Not that it has anything to do with the argument we're having, but can you please provide me a link from a source other than things like "The Dark Truth About Homosexuality" to substantiate your claim that NAMBLA is in any way considered a mainstream gay rights organization?

Even if every gay pride parade was called the "NAMBLA Gay rights parade, sponsored by NAMBLA" it wouldn't change the fact that our society at large is much more child-friendly than it used to be. Kids are more protected than ever from child predators, child pornography, and also in employment situations. While it used to be quite common to marry off young girls to adult men (in God-sanctioned, heterosexual marriages), that's not a thing anymore. It's an absolute lie to claim that our culture has moved even one iota toward accepting or legalizing relationships between adults and children, and that would be the case even if the Supreme Court had ruled the opposite way last June.


quote:
I guess society will accept boas and assless chaps, but it's bad PR to be marching with bold pederasts.
Yes. One of these things is patently, on its face, much worse than the other. Society is also much more accepting of people listening to Nickelback than it is of pedophiles. Great point there.



quote:
I've seen nothing that shows pedophilia is more frowned upon than ever,
You're either completely delusional or lying through your teeth. Given your posts of late, I'd say it's probably the latter.


quote:
I've seen people affirmatively arguing for the natural state of child sexual attraction, while maintaining that until society changes their mind on proper consent, it will remain illegal.

You've seen people arguing that child attraction is a natural thing that occurs. You haven't seen anyone here arguing that the legality of acting on that natural attraction can or should change.


I'm sorry if it hurts your cause, but NAMBLA has been an ally of the Gay movement for quite some time until it began hurting their PR campaign. The info is on the Internet, look it up. I never claimed the NAMBLA was a mainstream gay rights organization, just that they were a natural ally for the gay rights movement until they became an uncomfortable associate.

Kids are certainly not more protected from child predators, are you serious? With the advent of the social networking engine, kids are more vulnerable ever to child predators on line, where are you getting your info from?

I don't give two ****s about whether or not a predilection towards children is biological or an affectation, only that acting on the impulse is heinous. I understand that you're certainly not impartial as regards this issue, but how you fail to see the affirmation of relationships that aren't marriage as marriage is a gigantic slippery slope leading likely to the near future acceptance of incest, and likely to other more heinous actions including pedophilia is beyond me.
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 8:24p, 4/17/16
BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to [removed post] • 8:27p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
So if I can find one person who thinks killing wantonly isn't wrong, then your laws aren't universal and objective? That should be easy.


Of course not, I can find some people who think 2+2 doesn't equality 4, that has no bearing on the truth. Just because something is innately known doesn't mean the knowledge can't be overriden by free will.
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funkymonkey
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8:28p, 4/17/16
AG
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambia_people

quote:
The full initiation is reported to start with members of the tribe being removed from their mothers at the age of nine.This process is not always voluntary and can involve threats of death.The children are then beaten and stabbed in their nostrils with sticks to make them bleed.In the next stage the children are hit with stinging nettles.The boys are then dressed in ritual clothing and an attempt is made to force them to suck on ritual flutes.The boys are then taken to a cult house and older boys dance in front of them making sexual gestures.Once it gets darker the younger boys are taken to the dancing ground where they are expected to perform fellatio on the older boys.


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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 8:29p, 4/17/16
Beer Baron
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 8:31p, 4/17/16
AG

quote:
I'm sorry if it hurts your cause, but NAMBLA has been an ally of the Gay movement for quite some time until it began hurting their PR campaign. The info is on the Internet, look it up. I never claimed the NAMBLA was a mainstream gay rights organization, just that they were a natural ally for the gay rights movement until they became an uncomfortable associate.
Yes, the info is on the internet. The sources are all crap.

Please do explain how they're a "natural ally" for the gay rights movement though.



quote:
Kids are certainly not more protected from child predators, are you serious? With the advent of the social networking engine, kids are more vulnerable ever to child predators on line, where are you getting your info from?
You cannot be this stupid. Yes, the opportunities for exploitation are greater than ever. Society has responded accordingly. We even charge teenagers with trafficking child pornography when they send pictures of their own junk to each other now. 18 year old seniors get criminal recards and labeled sex offenders for life for getting a beej from a freshman they go to school with.


quote:
I don't give two ****s about whether or not a predilection towards children is biological or an affectation, only that acting on the impulse is heinous.
Agreed. It has no bearing on this conversation unless you find consenting adults acting on same-sex attraction to be equally as heinous.



quote:
I understand that you're certainly not impartial as regards this issue, but how you fail to see the affirmation of relationships that aren't marriage as marriage is a gigantic slippery slope leading likely to the near future acceptance of incest, and likely to other more heinous actions including pedophilia is beyond me.
Again, if the Supreme Court had ruled the opposite way last June, our country's level of acceptance of pedophilia would have remained unchanged. You've yet to show any connection between the two other than the fact that you really, really, REALLY think there's a connection.

I could just as easily point to our country's acceptance of Catholicism with its noted pedophilia problems in the clergy as an example of society moving toward accepting pedophilia on a larger scale. But I wouldn't do that because it would be incredibly stupid and not supported by any kind of actual evidence.
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funkymonkey
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 8:32p, 4/17/16
AG
NAMBLA was a huge supporter of certain catholic priests too. A great ally of the church
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to funkymonkey • 8:33p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambia_people

quote:
The full initiation is reported to start with members of the tribe being removed from their mothers at the age of nine.This process is not always voluntary and can involve threats of death.The children are then beaten and stabbed in their nostrils with sticks to make them bleed.In the next stage the children are hit with stinging nettles.The boys are then dressed in ritual clothing and an attempt is made to force them to suck on ritual flutes.The boys are then taken to a cult house and older boys dance in front of them making sexual gestures.Once it gets darker the younger boys are taken to the dancing ground where they are expected to perform fellatio on the older boys.




Are you posting this as evidence that pedophilia is okay as long as it's accepted by society
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to funkymonkey • 8:33p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
NAMBLA was a huge supporter of certain catholic priests too. A great ally of the church


Did they March in Catholic parades?
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funkymonkey
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 8:36p, 4/17/16
AG
quote:
quote:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambia_people

quote:
The full initiation is reported to start with members of the tribe being removed from their mothers at the age of nine.This process is not always voluntary and can involve threats of death.The children are then beaten and stabbed in their nostrils with sticks to make them bleed.In the next stage the children are hit with stinging nettles.The boys are then dressed in ritual clothing and an attempt is made to force them to suck on ritual flutes.The boys are then taken to a cult house and older boys dance in front of them making sexual gestures.Once it gets darker the younger boys are taken to the dancing ground where they are expected to perform fellatio on the older boys.




Are you posting this as evidence that pedophilia is okay as long as it's accepted by society


It's just an entire group of people who have a subjective opinion different than your subjective opinion that you subjectively claim is gods objective opinion. I subjectively think it's bad just like you subjectively think it's bad.
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