quote:the point is that those animals were making those things long before we built anything. they were the top builders on the planet. and then they weren't. funny how that works.
Yep I have been stung by many a bee and ant and have fished on the top of many a beaver damn. I guess with your logic I guess sometime in my lifetime I can expect to see some type of cart up on my stream in the Rockies helping the beaver get those aspen trees down the hillside. Not trying to be a butt, but you know where I was going with my question. Why is there no other species on earth even remotely as intelligent as humans were in the earliest record of history. They at least were able to design basic tools and shelter?
Still On Pace For The End Of The World?
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Last: 8 yr ago by FlyFish95
Humans have existed as Homo sapiens for nearly 500,000 years with the same body structure and brain. And only in the last 10,000 have we developed complex technology. Our body structure, with our hands free to use tools, is part of the reason for the success. However, there are species that are clearly capable of complex thought and emotion, like dolphins, that have biological limitations on their ability to evolve technology. Stop assuming humans have ALWAYS been these massive technological and cultural innovators. The rise of civilization is incredibly recent.
Sapper, why did homo sapiens live basically the same life for 490,000 years with the same hardships and lack of technological advances to improve their lives? Yet in the last 10,000 years have come from basically living in a cave to being able to build the space shuttle. Just does not make any sense unless there was some divine intervention.
Astro, yes I am sure that what you say about scientific discoveries is true. I have no reason to doubt any of what you say (actually don't understand much of it
) and for discussion sake, I will accept all of the scientific evidence you present as true. I still believe that a timeless immortal Creator could be the force behind all of it and again if you don't interpret much of the Genesis creation story literally and realize that God is the beginning and the end (ie timeless), how can you not at least pause and say, yes that may explain so much of the things that science just cannot explain (for example the laws/rules of the universe you mentioned earlier that are just not explainable).
Finally, I believe in my Lord and Savior, Christ, much more because of life experiences over the 53 years of my life than any scientific evidence or lack thereof. The comfort He gave me after the death of my brother, the devastation of the divorce in my first marriage, and then meeting the love of my life in the most unimaginable way possible that only could have been a gift from God. She is now my wife, my best friend, and mother of the three most amazing boys (all die hard Ags) that you will ever meet. I know that none of that is science, but there is something that is real when you are in times of despair that brings comfort when you have faith in Christ. I can't explain the how that happens but I believe the why is found in the Good Book and his name is Jesus.
Guys, I truly only entered this discussion as I love, admire, and respect any one that wears or is about to wear that Aggie ring. I'm not going to patronize you and say "Oh I will pray for your soul" because in reality by tomorrow and as the game versus Miss State draws near I will have moved on from this thread. But I do want to leave you all with this thought, please don't dismiss people of faith as kooks and idiots. There is something very real about the presence of God and Christ, especially in times of deep despair in your life. My hope for you all is that you get to experience that presence of God some day or at least be open to the idea of it when something truly catastrophic happens in your life. And in this fallen world that will happen.
I will never be able to convince you any other way than by faith and certainly not through any scientific evidence but I can tell you that I have felt the comfort of God in my life and that is by far the main reason I am a believer. I do mean all of this sincerely because I do admire all Ags and only want the best for them, May God bless you my friends!
Astro, yes I am sure that what you say about scientific discoveries is true. I have no reason to doubt any of what you say (actually don't understand much of it
) and for discussion sake, I will accept all of the scientific evidence you present as true. I still believe that a timeless immortal Creator could be the force behind all of it and again if you don't interpret much of the Genesis creation story literally and realize that God is the beginning and the end (ie timeless), how can you not at least pause and say, yes that may explain so much of the things that science just cannot explain (for example the laws/rules of the universe you mentioned earlier that are just not explainable).
Finally, I believe in my Lord and Savior, Christ, much more because of life experiences over the 53 years of my life than any scientific evidence or lack thereof. The comfort He gave me after the death of my brother, the devastation of the divorce in my first marriage, and then meeting the love of my life in the most unimaginable way possible that only could have been a gift from God. She is now my wife, my best friend, and mother of the three most amazing boys (all die hard Ags) that you will ever meet. I know that none of that is science, but there is something that is real when you are in times of despair that brings comfort when you have faith in Christ. I can't explain the how that happens but I believe the why is found in the Good Book and his name is Jesus.
Guys, I truly only entered this discussion as I love, admire, and respect any one that wears or is about to wear that Aggie ring. I'm not going to patronize you and say "Oh I will pray for your soul" because in reality by tomorrow and as the game versus Miss State draws near
I will have moved on from this thread. But I do want to leave you all with this thought, please don't dismiss people of faith as kooks and idiots. There is something very real about the presence of God and Christ, especially in times of deep despair in your life. My hope for you all is that you get to experience that presence of God some day or at least be open to the idea of it when something truly catastrophic happens in your life. And in this fallen world that will happen.
I will never be able to convince you any other way than by faith and certainly not through any scientific evidence but I can tell you that I have felt the comfort of God in my life and that is by far the main reason I am a believer. I do mean all of this sincerely because I do admire all Ags and only want the best for them, May God bless you my friends!
quote:agriculture. (over simplification)
Sapper, why did homo sapiens live basically the same life for 490,000 years with the same hardships and lack of technological advances to improve their lives? Yet in the last 10,000 years have come from basically living in a cave to being able to build the space shuttle. Just does not make any sense unless there was some divine intervention
That's like asking why we rode horses for thousands of years, but then went from the steam engine to the moon in less than 150 years.
Technology works in jumps. And the last 2 centuries have been HUGE advances.
Technology works in jumps. And the last 2 centuries have been HUGE advances.
"agriculture. (over simplification)"
Or in other words dominion over the earth (both plants and animals)!
Or in other words dominion over the earth (both plants and animals)!
"That's like asking why we rode horses for thousands of years, but then went from the steam engine to the moon in less than 150 years."
I think there were quite a few more steps in the development of transportation between the horse and the steam engine (ie wagons, chariots, sailing vessels, etc.).
I think there were quite a few more steps in the development of transportation between the horse and the steam engine (ie wagons, chariots, sailing vessels, etc.).
Astro I sincerely appreciate your respectfulness within this thread and I know without a doubt we won't change each other's minds. But maybe we can at least better understand how we have both come to believe what we both think is truth. My goal is to have you at least realize not all Christians are fanatical nut jobs and at least consider the possibility there could be a creator that set in motion all of the scientific evidence that even a believer like me has a very difficult time refuting.
I also believe that a true believer in God Almighty has no problem with questioning what he believes. I also believe God wants us to question our faith so that ultimately we become more convinced in His existence. I think any christian who is unwilling to question what he believes is very insecure in his beliefs. Conversely I believe that any person of science unwilling to consider the possibility of a divine being being involved in science is just as insecure in their belief in their worldview of there being no divine creator.
I have seen that picture of mankind's evolution since the 1970s in high school biology. I will admit I have no way of reconciling it to the creation story of Adam and Eve in Genisis. But just as I can't reconcile it with the Genisis story, is this any different from being unable to explain any of the unique laws of the universe? Couldn't we both be right?
Again my main conviction in what I believe comes from life experiences. Every day that passes by and I see God's plan for my life unfold, I become more convinced He is real and is the author of life and everything that exists.
Astro you seem like a great guy and an extremely intelligent young man (I assume young by presuming 17 is your class year) and I would love to get together some weekend before or after a FB game and have dinner and a cocktail or two and talk about Aggie football, hunting, fishing, family, Texas A&M or anything else you are passionate about. Take care my friend!
I also believe that a true believer in God Almighty has no problem with questioning what he believes. I also believe God wants us to question our faith so that ultimately we become more convinced in His existence. I think any christian who is unwilling to question what he believes is very insecure in his beliefs. Conversely I believe that any person of science unwilling to consider the possibility of a divine being being involved in science is just as insecure in their belief in their worldview of there being no divine creator.
I have seen that picture of mankind's evolution since the 1970s in high school biology. I will admit I have no way of reconciling it to the creation story of Adam and Eve in Genisis. But just as I can't reconcile it with the Genisis story, is this any different from being unable to explain any of the unique laws of the universe? Couldn't we both be right?
Again my main conviction in what I believe comes from life experiences. Every day that passes by and I see God's plan for my life unfold, I become more convinced He is real and is the author of life and everything that exists.
Astro you seem like a great guy and an extremely intelligent young man (I assume young by presuming 17 is your class year) and I would love to get together some weekend before or after a FB game and have dinner and a cocktail or two and talk about Aggie football, hunting, fishing, family, Texas A&M or anything else you are passionate about. Take care my friend!
quote:Not all humans qualify. Up until 1980 there were aboriginal australians who had not developed technology beyond a sharp stick. Are they less human? Less marvelous? I don't think so. But they are less fortunate. They lived generation after generation without writing. The power of writing is the backbone of civilization along with agriculture and large mammal domestication. Without it knowledge is lost and diluted, with it it is saved and built upon. And that's the story of the last 10k year that differ from the previous 200k.
Sapper, why did homo sapiens live basically the same life for 490,000 years with the same hardships and lack of technological advances to improve their lives? Yet in the last 10,000 years have come from basically living in a cave to being able to build the space shuttle. Just does not make any sense unless there was some divine intervention
08 then why is a monkey of 100,000 years ago still the same monkey as today? Wether it's an African, Asian, or South American primate? Also is it just coincidentally that the dawn of civilization 10,000 years ago just happens to coincide with the beginning of recorded history implied roughly by the Bible's story of the dawn of mankind?
quote:
08 then why is a monkey of 100,000 years ago still the same monkey as today? Wether it's an African, Asian, or South American primate? Also is it just coincidentally that the dawn of civilization 10,000 years ago just happens to coincide with the beginning of recorded history implied roughly by the Bible's story of the dawn of mankind?
A better question is why does that written narrative of the beginning of the world claim that the world is only as old as the beginnings of recognizable civilization, and also not much older than written language itself?
quote:
08 then why is a monkey of 100,000 years ago still the same monkey as today?
For the exact same reasons the aboriginal people in 1980 was the same as 100,00 years ago. And she's much smarter than the monkey. Monkey's aren't smart enough to develop writing so there is a hard gap there. But the difference in human and other apes intellect is smaller than human and other apes achievement. What I'm saying is that technologically aboriginals where quite unimpressive, but they were still smart as any other people. Technology cannot be achieved without the framework of writing and a stable enough society to preserve it.
Don't mistake me, we have no intellectual parallel in nature. There is nothing as smart as us. Though there are a number of creatures smarter than our young children. But our intelligence hasn't appreciably changed in a very long time. Much longer than we have advanced.
quote:The dawn of civilization according to a bible timeline (if you want to be literal) is 6k years not 10k, and from that standpoints its very far off as civilization was born 10-12k years ago in the levant and (probably) independently shortly thereafter in china. Nothing in the genesis tale hints at or accurately coincides with the birth of civilization.
Also is it just coincidentally that the dawn of civilization 10,000 years ago just happens to coincide with the beginning of recorded history implied roughly by the Bible's story of the dawn of mankind?
And do not mistake it as a terribly sudden event. 10-12k year period is the same amount of time between now and christ.
Abos
The below passage regarding the end times always made me think of day time tv. So did Paul accurately prophecy about Oprah and the like 2000 years ago? This is from 2 Timothy 3:1-9.
quote:
1You should know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. 2For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. 3They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control. They will be cruel and hate what is good.4They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. 5They will act religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. Stay away from people like that!
6They are the kind who work their way into people's homes and win the confidence of vulnerable women who are burdened with the guilt of sin and controlled by various desires. 7(Such women are forever following new teachings, but they are never able to understand the truth.)8These teachers oppose the truth just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses. They have depraved minds and a counterfeit faith. 9But they won't get away with this for long. Someday everyone will recognize what fools they are, just as with Jannes and Jambres.
There is one other thing I think that's worth pointing out when talking about how much smarter human beings are than our nearest relatives, and that's the fact that the comparison has only two data points today, a human being, and a chimp. And it's admittedly no small gap.
The chimp being #2 on the brains list is the point of comparison. If the chimp went extinct it would be the gorilla then the orangutan, then gibbons then monkeys and so on. So that were the great apes to go extinct the difference between human intelligence and the nearest animal would be enormous.
But we can look at this in reverse to. Is there a creature smarter than a chimp that no longer exists hence increasing the gap? The answer is a resounding yes.
Would we still see this enormous gap if our fellow causins in genus homo still walked the earth? With Neanderthal men or Denisovans or H. floresiensis walking around would we feel so unique? I really doubt it, at least to this extent. So our unique status is not simply a matter of human beings springing traits along a different line, but our fellow cousins dying out.
The chimp being #2 on the brains list is the point of comparison. If the chimp went extinct it would be the gorilla then the orangutan, then gibbons then monkeys and so on. So that were the great apes to go extinct the difference between human intelligence and the nearest animal would be enormous.
But we can look at this in reverse to. Is there a creature smarter than a chimp that no longer exists hence increasing the gap? The answer is a resounding yes.
Would we still see this enormous gap if our fellow causins in genus homo still walked the earth? With Neanderthal men or Denisovans or H. floresiensis walking around would we feel so unique? I really doubt it, at least to this extent. So our unique status is not simply a matter of human beings springing traits along a different line, but our fellow cousins dying out.
"Just curious if the schedule is still holding for the world to end this month? We're getting down to it!!!"
After listening to the news all day today I would say we are certainly running the clock out.
After listening to the news all day today I would say we are certainly running the clock out.
We are running the clock out? If history was the stock market the last 10,000 years would be the greatest bull run ever
Got another one for the evolutionists on this thread. You all have claimed on this thread that you agree humans have no equal intellectually but that is due to other species becoming extinct over time widening the intellectual gap between Homo sapiens and chimps.
So my next question is why does every chimp or for that matter every other species in the animal kingdom look the same. every orangutan pretty much looks like every other orangutan, every tiger looks like every other tiger yet every human for the most part is uniquely different in appearance for the most part down to even having unique finger prints. I realize there are different types or breeds of tigers,etc but there are different races of humans but each individual within each race is uniquely different in appearance. Why isn't the animal kingdom this way?
Again I don't categorically deny the theory of evolution. I just don't think it is totally counter to the idea of God's creation and certainly not counter to my faith in Jesus Chriist.
So my next question is why does every chimp or for that matter every other species in the animal kingdom look the same. every orangutan pretty much looks like every other orangutan, every tiger looks like every other tiger yet every human for the most part is uniquely different in appearance for the most part down to even having unique finger prints. I realize there are different types or breeds of tigers,etc but there are different races of humans but each individual within each race is uniquely different in appearance. Why isn't the animal kingdom this way?
Again I don't categorically deny the theory of evolution. I just don't think it is totally counter to the idea of God's creation and certainly not counter to my faith in Jesus Chriist.
Every animal is unique.
Some not as much as others but they're all unique. Different shades of color, different lengths of hair, different sizes, etc.
While they are, for the most part, very similar in many attributes, one thing that has happened historically is many types of animals kill/ostracize certain members that look different than others. This narrows the gene pool somewhat.
The adaptability of the human has also been a player into this (different looks, size) based on where they live in the world.
I'm a Christian and that's a fairly weak argument.
Return question: if God created us from "one man and one woman", why do we all look so different?
Some not as much as others but they're all unique. Different shades of color, different lengths of hair, different sizes, etc.
While they are, for the most part, very similar in many attributes, one thing that has happened historically is many types of animals kill/ostracize certain members that look different than others. This narrows the gene pool somewhat.
The adaptability of the human has also been a player into this (different looks, size) based on where they live in the world.
I'm a Christian and that's a fairly weak argument.
Return question: if God created us from "one man and one woman", why do we all look so different?
quote:
Got another one for the evolutionists on this thread. You all have claimed on this thread that you agree humans have no equal intellectually but that is due to other species becoming extinct over time widening the intellectual gap between Homo sapiens and chimps.
So my next question is why does every chimp or for that matter every other species in the animal kingdom look the same. every orangutan pretty much looks like every other orangutan, every tiger looks like every other tiger yet every human for the most part is uniquely different in appearance for the most part down to even having unique finger prints. I realize there are different types or breeds of tigers,etc but there are different races of humans but each individual within each race is uniquely different in appearance. Why isn't the animal kingdom this way?
Again I don't categorically deny the theory of evolution. I just don't think it is totally counter to the idea of God's creation and certainly not counter to my faith in Jesus Chriist.
The stripes on a Zebra or a Tiger are as unique to each animal as are fingerprints for humans.
There are a lot more corollaries, but humans are not unique as a species in having identifying marks unique to each individual.
quote:
So my next question is why does every chimp or for that matter every other species in the animal kingdom look the same. every orangutan pretty much looks like every other orangutan, every tiger looks like every other tiger yet every human for the most part is uniquely different in appearance for the most part down to even having unique finger prints. I realize there are different types or breeds of tigers,etc but there are different races of humans but each individual within each race is uniquely different in appearance. Why isn't the animal kingdom this way?
I have a theory about why this might be, but as a disclaimer, I am no where near the most qualified here to give an intelligible answer. I'd love to here feedback on my theory.
No other animal on the planet has the ability to artificially adapt to new environments the way we do. When a few Canadian brown bears moved further north a couple hundred thousand years ago, it would have taken many generations for their coats to turn white and get thicker and for them to make all of the physical changes that separate the two species. When human beings move into colder climates, we find someone with a thick white coat and say 'Hmm, I'll have that off of you, please.'
Humans live in the tropics, grasslands, mountains, deserts, forests, swamps, and just about anywhere else because we have the ability to use the resources of an environment and adapt them to suit our needs. Any other animal making such a large geographical change would require substantial re-engineering.
On a side note - I suspect many social animals would be able to look at one another and tell the difference between two members of a species almost instantly. I think orangutans all look the same too, but I only see them once a year at the zoo. To an orangutan, the subtle physical differences that we see between two orangutans could be as stark to them as the difference between Shaq and Woody Allen is to us.
Smaller animals with short reproductive cycles would evolve into new species or ring species relatively quickly. Humans are a large apex predator with a slow reproductive cycle. We take much, much longer to evolve into new species while still showing genetic variability.
The point about bears in interesting in that different populations of bears actually have different traits and physical markers from adaptation to their environment. It doesn't rise to the level of speciation, but you can see some differences between populations.
The point about bears in interesting in that different populations of bears actually have different traits and physical markers from adaptation to their environment. It doesn't rise to the level of speciation, but you can see some differences between populations.
quote:I've actually read about bears in one area learning how to defeat "bear-proof" food containers of campers so that you know ahead of time that you can't bring certain containers into that area because those bears know how to get inside them. whereas other bears in other areas don't know yet.
Smaller animals with short reproductive cycles would evolve into new species or ring species relatively quickly. Humans are a large apex predator with a slow reproductive cycle. We take much, much longer to evolve into new species while still showing genetic variability.
The point about bears in interesting in that different populations of bears actually have different traits and physical markers from adaptation to their environment. It doesn't rise to the level of speciation, but you can see some differences between populations.
That video just made me giggle laugh.
Since Winags has been snooping around this week, I thought this was an appropriate bump.
There's a whole lot of stupid that college can't fix. -My Grandfather
Comprehensive skills amongst the deniers of Christ are lacking and that is understandable, knowledge comes from God.
I predicted nothing
Liars and losers whose destiny is hell, what a pity, I suppose.
Off to church
I predicted nothing
Liars and losers whose destiny is hell, what a pity, I suppose.
Off to church
Blood moons?
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