Still On Pace For The End Of The World?

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Aggrad08
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5:46p, 9/26/15
AG

quote:
Truth be told though, I am glad you quoted Matthew 24. Matthew 24:15 destroys your claims that this is a failed prophesy.

Not even a a little bit. You didn't remotely address the quoted passage. Where are all the things claimed for this generation? A statement before regarding the temple makes no difference toward the firm claim that these things would happen this generation. And it's clear even from paul's writings that they thought the end was very near just as jesus claimed.


quote:
The "abomination of desolation" refers to anti-Christ declaring to be God as he stands at the Temple Mount. The Third Temple has not been rebuilt in Jerusalem, and this is essential to the culmination of this prophecy.
The second temple was still standing when jesus made this claim, so there was a temple mount for him to refer to as part of that prophecy. Even if the temple was destroyed at the time, you would still have no argument since he claimed this would all take place within the lifetime of the people there. So the prophecy fails even if he expected a third temple to be rebuilt soon.

C.S. lewis said it best:

"Say what you like," we shall be told [by some critics], "the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And, worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else."

"It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side"


He's right, it might be the most embarrassing verse in the bible.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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5:51p, 9/26/15
Aggrad08
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5:51p, 9/26/15
AG

quote:
I barely showed you a smidgen on a percent of an argument. I'm merely trying to prove to you that there are two separate subjects being discussed, and how you can tell by literary context clues where the subjects start and end.

Unfortunately the entire argument is about a 250 page book.
The smidgen you showed is very weak. There is nothing in there to state that the clear reading doesn't refer to this generation for the exact statements brought above. A symmetry in statements (which is stretched by those titles) doesn't separate a clear claim into two different ones in order to avoid an obvious failing.

It's further evidence that it wasn't understood this way based on paul's writings for the return of jesus being very soon.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 5:55p, 9/26/15
AG
quote:

quote:
I barely showed you a smidgen on a percent of an argument. I'm merely trying to prove to you that there are two separate subjects being discussed, and how you can tell by literary context clues where the subjects start and end.

Unfortunately the entire argument is about a 250 page book.
The smidgen you showed is very weak. There is nothing in there to state that the clear reading doesn't refer to this generation for the exact statements brought above. A symmetry in statements (which is stretched by those titles) doesn't separate a clear claim into two different ones in order to avoid an obvious failing.

It's further evidence that it wasn't understood this way based on paul's writings for the return of jesus being very soon.


Oh
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Aggrad08
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6:05p, 9/26/15
AG
Nice argument. Blindly referring to a little read book by David Currie a man who set out with the fundamentalist like goal (that was his upbringing) to demonstrate that jesus couldn't possibly be wrong and vaguely arguing that some symmetry betrays a clear reading and the understanding of paul and the early church who thought the end quite near.
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Mrs. Lovelight
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9:22p, 9/26/15
Has no one who posted on this thread ever heard of preterism, full or partial?
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 11:24p, 9/26/15
AG
quote:
Nice argument. Blindly referring to a little read book by David Currie a man who set out with the fundamentalist like goal (that was his upbringing) to demonstrate that jesus couldn't possibly be wrong and vaguely arguing that some symmetry betrays a clear reading and the understanding of paul and the early church who thought the end quite near.


I posted an argument. And I defended my argument, once again you posted a bunch of "everyone knows" and "clearly" without defending anything you actually posted. Is this an actual thing amongst atheist polemicists? I read the drivel that Hitchens wrote about Mother Teresa and there wasn't a single footnote or citation for any of the libel he included in the book, just a bunch of "clearly" and "everyone knows"
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Aggrad08
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11:34p, 9/26/15
AG

quote:
I posted an argument.

No, you referenced an argument. You briefly described a vague symmetry and made no argument as to why that eliminates the claims of a clear reading.



quote:
And I defended my argument,

When? Where would a loose symmetry in statements lead to ignoring wholesale the clear reading and why did paul and the early church think the time was so soon?



quote:
once again you posted a bunch of "everyone knows" and "clearly" without defending anything you actually posted.

Irony. You've made a loose "argument" and reference a book. Is it gonna be just like your defense of marian theology or transubstantiation where you appeal to someone and simply refuse to address any actual arguments?


quote:
Is this an actual thing amongst atheist polemicists? I read the drivel that Hitchens wrote about Mother Teresa and there wasn't a single footnote or citation for any of the libel he included in the book, just a bunch of "clearly" and "everyone knows"
I haven't read Hitchens on teresa. But even a child can recognize that mother teresa's "miracle" was a joke and nothing more than a woman taking medicine. And If you'd like sources on that, start with the damn doctor or husband.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 11:52p, 9/26/15
AG
So in essence, Christians need links, non believers just need to sound condescending and tell others to find their own damn links.

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Aggrad08
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12:01a, 9/27/15
AG

quote:
So in essence, Christians need links, non believers just need to sound condescending and tell others to find their own damn links.
Where did I ask for a link? What are you even talking about? Stop dodging, I asked for an argument, I've made mine, tampa at least attempted a rebuttal though it made no sense in context. Yours was half an argument and a reference to a book. The argument made no attempt at describing why the implications of a reading should be ignored and why the early church thought the second coming was immanent.
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 12:18a, 9/27/15
AG
quote:

quote:
So in essence, Christians need links, non believers just need to sound condescending and tell others to find their own damn links.
Where did I ask for a link? What are you even talking about? Stop dodging, I asked for an argument, I've made mine, tampa at least attempted a rebuttal though it made no sense in context. Yours was half an argument and a reference to a book. The argument made no attempt at describing why the implications of a reading should be ignored and why the early church thought the second coming was immanent.


Show me the early church thought the second coming was imminent.
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Madman
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 12:23a, 9/27/15
AG
Selling all their property and living in communes. Can't remember the verse but i do remember the story about the one couple that held back a portion of their sale.

Dirty hippies. I bet they played a lot of hacky sack too.
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fahraint
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12:41a, 9/27/15
Hi Mrs. L, I am familiar with preterism, and the partial, but I fit best with historic premillennialism, thanks for posting!
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Aggrad08
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12:41a, 9/27/15
AG

quote:
Show me the early church thought the second coming was imminent.
Have you actually read the NT?

You are actually the first christian I've ever seen deny this.

Here:

"Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away." (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

"The end of all things is near" (1 Peter 4:7)

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24-25)

"We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Cor. 15:51)

"the coming of the Lord is near. the Judge is standing right at the door." (James 5:8, 9)

"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near."(Revelation 1:3)

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

"And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly."" (Revelation 22:6,7,10,12,20)


One of the central themes of the whole NT is urgency. It is driven home again and again, the time is near, act!

In fact, in a later writing we see a need to address this as the church wavers in this belief as so many fathers pass. The author of 2nd peter tries to assuage the worries of the early christians as they were already being mocked by doubters who heard their claims of jesus imminent return:

"3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise,as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

The author here is basically trying to argue to ignore a literal timeline that at the point of this writing is already causing concern, tries to reassure his readers by stating that time is meaningless to god (thousand years is a day). Which is to say time is meaningless to god.




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BustUpAChiffarobe
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 1:04a, 9/27/15
AG
No, I need extra biblical sources, something from the Catechism, or possibly apocryphal, you can't use the Bible.
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Aggrad08
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1:16a, 9/27/15
AG
quote:
No, I need extra biblical sources, something from the Catechism, or possibly apocryphal, you can't use the Bible.
Lol, why can't I use the bible as evidence of early church beliefs? What better source is there? That's asinine.

Catechism is a very poor source as it post dates the early church by a great deal. And the apocryphal NT works are considered heresy by catholics and protestants alike.

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Madman
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In reply to BustUpAChiffarobe • 10:45a, 9/27/15
AG
quote:
No, I need extra biblical sources, something from the Catechism, or possibly apocryphal, you can't use the Bible.
Wut?
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Bobcat06
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In reply to Amazing Moves • 6:10p, 9/27/15
AG
quote:
quote:
Just a tangential question, what the hell is cross-polarized light? That man in the video seemed to indicate that it was passed through two filters at a 90 degree angle, but that would result in the blockage of all the light. I'm not sure it's important to the actual argument but I have no idea what that is. Google wasn't helpful either, I didn't see anything like what he was talking about.
Here is an example..maybe?

I am definitely at a disadvantage when it comes to this.

Cross polarization is caused when polarized light passes thru birefringent or anisotropic medium, which has non uniform refractive index. Cross polarized light can then be sent thru a polarized lens to induce phase shifts.

As a photonics enigeer, I solve problems with non-linear optics, indirect conduction gaps in alloy semiconductors and nitrogen induced dopant migration thru lattice structures. I don't sit around and read textbooks, so pardon me if I forgot the definition of matter from Phys 208. So rather than avoid the question based on a technicality, would you please answer the question:

Why did Moses write that the universe, which is composed of energy and particles, began with light, which is both energy and particle, rather than the four classical elements of antiquity?



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In reply to Bobcat06 • 6:23p, 9/27/15
Bobcat06
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In reply to [removed post] • 6:41p, 9/27/15
AG
So you go from hiding behind one nuance to another (after I mentioned it)? Bravo!
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Bobcat06
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6:55p, 9/27/15
AG
Your argument is basically:

"Compared to Earth, Fire, Wind and Water, there's nothing special about Light (despite providing the framework for Relativity and earning Einstein a Nobel Peace Prize) because other subatomic particles have similar attributes"

Why would a bronze age nomad go against the conventional wisdom of his era to identify a subatomic particle as the foundation of the universe?
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Amazing Moves
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In reply to Bobcat06 • 8:02p, 9/27/15
I anwered the 2nd question pretty well. Since you're good at answering questions with questions... I'll do the same.

Why do you think Moses wrote that the universe, which is composed of energy and particles, began with light, which is both energy and particle, rather than the four classical elements of antiquity?
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8:13p, 9/27/15
FriscoREAg
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11:00p, 9/27/15
AG
Two simple questions from a very non-scientific christian to all the genius and incredibly intelligent scientific non-believers on this thread.

1) if everything in the universe was created by a being intelligent enough and powerful enough to accomplish this feat, do you really believe you or even the smartest human to ever lived could come close to comprehending the science behind how He did it?

2) have you pondered the question of "What if I'm wrong"?

Now you can carry on with your debate which none of you will ever come to an agreement. That is why belief in Christ is done through faith and faith alone!
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SapperAg
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In reply to Bobcat06 • 11:12p, 9/27/15
AG
Why did the Israelites (Moses didn't write Genesis) use light emerging from watery chaos? Because that's what the Egyptians and probably the Sumerians before them used in their creation myths. Light starts the day. Makes sense that it would start all days in a creation myth.
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Aggrad08
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11:30p, 9/27/15
AG

quote:
2) have you pondered the question of "What if I'm wrong"?
This very question is why I'm an atheist. Have you asked yourself this question?
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FriscoREAg
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11:37p, 9/27/15
AG
I have my friend! Many many times over 50 plus years of my life. If I'm wrong I'll be just like you when I'm dead. Nothing but dust in a dying world. But if I'm right and you're wrong my friend is what you need to be concerned about.
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Aggrad08
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11:46p, 9/27/15
AG
But what about while you are alive? This is nothing more than pascal's silly wager. I cannot place any significant probability that a religion like christianity is correct. Even in this thread we have christians with no good answer on why a man who is supposed to be god cannot even correctly predict his own return.

There may be a god, and if there is such a being he's nothing like the character in the bible, and I do not fear to meet him and hold no shame for not adhering to a revealed religion.
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YokelRidesAgain
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11:56p, 9/27/15
AG
Dagnabbit. This whole thread was tl;dr.

I was counting on the end of the world tonight, and I've got work tomorrow.

If only you could have been more succinct.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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FriscoREAg
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11:56p, 9/27/15
AG
While I'm alive the teachings of Christ and the belief in the promises He made to all that call him Lord make me a better husband, father, son and friend. Isn't that what really matters in life. I have no desire to engage in any philophical debate. I have neither the time or the intellect to truly challenge you. I'm just planting seeds for thought for you and your cohorts on this thread. I'm an old so good night my friend.
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vette
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 12:12a, 9/28/15
AG
quote:
But what about while you are alive? This is nothing more than pascal's silly wager. I cannot place any significant probability that a religion like christianity is correct. Even in this thread we have christians with no good answer on why a man who is supposed to be god cannot even correctly predict his own return.

There may be a god, and if there is such a being he's nothing like the character in the bible, and I do not fear to meet him and hold no shame for not adhering to a revealed religion.


I'm praying for you tonight that God does a mighty work in your heart and He reveals himself to you.
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