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Everyone is different. I do think it is bad even without the slap. They beg for money, then live the high life. It is a free country so if you and others are OK with donating your hard earned money so they can ski in Aspen, more power to you.

Do I think it is OK if I ride first class? Sure. But I haven't asked a bunch of poor schmucks to give me money in the name of the Lord. And BTW, the only time I have ridden in first class was when I volunteered to get bumped and they upgraded me for volunteering to wait for a later flight.

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I'm curious why people hold pastors to standards they themselves aren't willing to follow. Theologically, all your money is God's right? So, you will be held accountable the same the pastor will be held accountable for his actions. Why do you think you get a pass?

I don't believe that the ends justify the means, so I'm not making any comments towards how they raise money or anything.

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From the perspective of a religious person, someone that makes money selling the Word is not good. Churches don't create wealth. It's not a business. They take it in as a donation.

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Fraud is fraud. Hell, at least these guys aren't calling you at home. Talk about manipulative.
No reason for you to be any more upset about this than that.

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I completely disagree.

There is a big diff, IMO, than a dude trying to trick you into buying a $29.99 malware program that you probably don't need and what some of these folks are doing.

As has been pointed out, they are peddling a particularly ugly form of spirituality and 'healing'. For someone to tell someone else to forego the chemo and send me $1000 and the Lord will heal you, is far worse, IMO, than most other 'scams' out there.

Those of faith should be even more disgusted with this than non-believers.

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James 3:1

Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

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Talk about an out of context reference. Reading the rest of James 3, it's apparent that he is teaching that the tongue can get you in trouble, and leaders are scrutized more. I don't believe he's making a holy/judgement statement in that sentence. It would be very out of place if it were.

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From the perspective of a religious person, someone that makes money selling the Word is not good. Churches don't create wealth. It's not a business. They take it in as a donation.

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Then you think pastors should not be paid?

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From the perspective of a religious person, someone that makes money selling the Word is not good. Churches don't create wealth. It's not a business. They take it in as a donation.

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Then you think pastors should not be paid?

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I think they can be paid. But when you're not creating wealth but instead living off the wealth of others that has been donated, living very very well will begin to diminish the message.

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Fraud is fraud. Hell, at least these guys aren't calling you at home. Talk about manipulative.
No reason for you to be any more upset about this than that.

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I completely disagree.

There is a big diff, IMO, than a dude trying to trick you into buying a $29.99 malware program that you probably don't need and what some of these folks are doing.

As has been pointed out, they are peddling a particularly ugly form of spirituality and 'healing'. For someone to tell someone else to forego the chemo and send me $1000 and the Lord will heal you, is far worse, IMO, than most other 'scams' out there.

Those of faith should be even more disgusted with this than non-believers.

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Except that there are all kinds of pseudoscientific fraudulent medical scams.

This would just be one more.

It wouldn't be worse than any of those just by virtue of being religious in nature.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/cancer-doctor-sentenced-years-horrific-fraud/29996107/

You can also find other medical fraud--unnecessary surgeries and unnecessary implants.

Is that even WORSE than this?

Why are you in such a rush to derail this thread by pointing out other forms of fraud?

Want to talk about homeopathy or astrology again? I'm happy to point out people that make fraudulent claims whether they are religious or not. John Edward is just as disgusting and evil as any of these televangelists.

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Talk about an out of context reference. Reading the rest of James 3, it's apparent that he is teaching that the tongue can get you in trouble, and leaders are scrutized more. I don't believe he's making a holy/judgement statement in that sentence. It would be very out of place if it were.

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You really think James was concerned about being scrutinized by the world? I would wager that James only cared about one kind of judgement. If the US Supreme Court has taught the world anything, it is that money is speech. Just kidding, but even so, the way you spend money sends a message and religious leaders deserve more scrutiny for this reason. Materialism and Christianity aren't as mutually exclusive as some would claim, but luxury and opulence are not compatible with a life of humble Christian service.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/cancer-doctor-sentenced-years-horrific-fraud/29996107/

You can also find other medical fraud--unnecessary surgeries and unnecessary implants.

Is that even WORSE than this?

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Sure, I would consider this cat worse than Tilton.

I think you're actually proving my point. You said that fraud is fraud, and while I guess you make that case from a strictly definition standpoint, there is no question that some fraud is worse than others. That's all I'm saying.

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Why are you in such a rush to derail this thread by pointing out other forms of fraud?

Want to talk about homeopathy or astrology again? I'm happy to point out people that make fraudulent claims whether they are religious or not. John Edward is just as disgusting and evil as any of these televangelists.

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It's not a derail. As you can see, I'm discussing the Osteen stuff. But I'm not going to allow a claim to stand that this is special or specially harmful by virtue of being religious in nature.

Reading through it a few more times...I don't think hes establishing any sort of hierarchy of judgement. I dont think hes intending that something is ok for parishoners and not ok for clergy. Judge more strictly doesn't seem to imply a different standard....just a higher enforcement of the same standard. Later he says: "The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." This doesn't indicate there's a lesser judgement for non-teachers.

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Then you think pastors should not be paid?

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I think they can be paid, but I don't think it should be a full time job. Rabbi's and megachurch (2k+) pastors get paid well into 6 figures.

I like that imams have a regular job and get some additional salary to be a religious leader. I've seen small time pastors work this way also.

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http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/cancer-doctor-sentenced-years-horrific-fraud/29996107/

You can also find other medical fraud--unnecessary surgeries and unnecessary implants.

Is that even WORSE than this?

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Sure, I would consider this cat worse than Tilton.

I think you're actually proving my point. You said that fraud is fraud, and while I guess you make that case from a strictly definition standpoint, there is no question that some fraud is worse than others. That's all I'm saying.

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A distinction. Fraud is fraud. It's all bad. What you may be defrauded out of may be worse from case to case. Some here were faith healer scammed. Others just money. The faith healers are worse than the money scammers. But not worse than anyone else that defrauds you with regard to your health or medical care.

You might also argue that this is an abuse of trust. But it's not particularly special in that regard, either.

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I think they can be paid. But when you're not creating wealth but instead living off the wealth of others that has been donated, living very very well will begin to diminish the message.

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Bingo. Typically goes like this. Pastor says God wants you to give some of God's money back to the Church. Pastor may even say it is our responsibility to "sacrifice" and "endure hardship" for the good of the Church. Pastor then takes God's money given for the good of the Church and flies first class instead of coach. So much for hardship. Then again, if someone can give me a legitimate religious reason that a pastor should be flying first class when all the seats on the plane still go to the same place, then I would love to hear it.

Then again, things still get tricky. Maybe the pastor makes a modest sum from his ministry, but is a really good saver or investor. Maybe he saves for 2 years for a vacation and pays the extra for first class, while cutting back other parts of his budget. At that point, I don't think anyone would care.

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Then you think pastors should not be paid?

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I think they can be paid, but I don't think it should be a full time job. Rabbi's and megachurch (2k+) pastors get paid well into 6 figures.

I like that imams have a regular job and get some additional salary to be a religious leader. I've seen small time pastors work this way also.

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I think you can make ministry a full time job. I've got no issue with a church picking up the tab on that.

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I think they can be paid. But when you're not creating wealth but instead living off the wealth of others that has been donated, living very very well will begin to diminish the message.

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What's living well then? Who has the authority on what a pastor is allowed to do and not allowed to do? It seems you don't believe in the God ownership of all money...since you establish there's a difference between created wealth and donated wealth.

My personal opinion is that God values what you do with your money regardless of position. So, you might as well call yourself a non-profit where all the money is donated to you by God. You are responsible for what you do with your lifetime earnings...whether pastor or otherwise. So, I will be judged on my usage, and the pastor will be his. You are manager...if you don't feel it's being spent wisely at XYZ Church, then you are under holy obligation to give it elsewhere.

Joel is the only one I actually still give money to. Not because I think God demands I give 10%. I don't even believe in the Bible much. But He is the most authentic and effective religious preacher in getting people to stop blaming others for their lives.

Joel takes no salary from Lakewood.

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I think they can be paid. But when you're not creating wealth but instead living off the wealth of others that has been donated, living very very well will begin to diminish the message.

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What's living well then? Who has the authority on what a pastor is allowed to do and not allowed to do? It seems you don't believe in the God ownership of all money...since you establish there's a difference between created wealth and donated wealth.

My personal opinion is that God values what you do with your money regardless of position. So, you might as well call yourself a non-profit where all the money is donated to you by God. You are responsible for what you do with your lifetime earnings...whether pastor or otherwise. So, I will be judged on my usage, and the pastor will be his. You are manager...if you don't feel it's being spent wisely at XYZ Church, then you are under holy obligation to give it elsewhere.

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I think flying first class when 90% of the plans can manage coach is living well.

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Joel is the only one I actually still give money to. Not because I think God demands I give 10%. I don't even believe in the Bible much. But He is the most authentic and effective religious preacher in getting people to stop blaming others for their lives.

Joel takes no salary from Lakewood.

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That's more of a life coach pitch.

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if someone can give me a legitimate religious reason that a pastor should be flying first class when all the seats on the plane still go to the same place, then I would love to hear it.

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My point is...why do any of us deserve it more than him?

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if someone can give me a legitimate religious reason that a pastor should be flying first class when all the seats on the plane still go to the same place, then I would love to hear it.

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My point is...why do any of us deserve it more than him?

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How many of us live in $10 million homes?

How many of us made that money selling God's word?

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How many of us live in $10 million homes?

How many of us made that money selling God's word?

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Who cares? We will be judged before God for our deeds. You are arbitrarily deciding where that judgement is. You say they can get paid, just not too much. Somewhere, they become "sellers of God". I guess thats when they earn enough for a First class ticket?

For the record, a pastor owning a $10M home has issues for other reasons...I'm just specifically talking about judgement of pastors for "luxuries" like a First Class ticket...while having no knowledge about total financial picture. In Osteen's case, his is pretty documented.

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How many of us live in $10 million homes?

How many of us made that money selling God's word?

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Who cares? We will be judged before God for our deeds. You are arbitrarily deciding where that judgement is. You say they can get paid, just not too much. Somewhere, they become "sellers of God". I guess thats when they earn enough for a First class ticket?

For the record, a pastor owning a $10M home has issues for other reasons...I'm just specifically talking about judgement of pastors for "luxuries" like a First Class ticket...while having no knowledge about total financial picture. In Osteen's case, his is pretty documented.

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It's not arbitrary at all. There may be a point where it is. But $10 million is not it.

If you are religious his prosperity gospel shtick should concern and offend you. People that might be convinced to spend money charitably are spending it on him instead.

Yes, God will judge him and us all. But that doesn't mean this is none of our concern here and now.

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Joel is the only one I actually still give money to. Not because I think God demands I give 10%. I don't even believe in the Bible much. But He is the most authentic and effective religious preacher in getting people to stop blaming others for their lives.

Joel takes no salary from Lakewood.

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That's more of a life coach pitch.

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Yeah well, I don't believe in hell. So. I don't think "saving" people needs to be #1 priority.

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Joel is the only one I actually still give money to. Not because I think God demands I give 10%. I don't even believe in the Bible much. But He is the most authentic and effective religious preacher in getting people to stop blaming others for their lives.

Joel takes no salary from Lakewood.

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That's more of a life coach pitch.

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Yeah well, I don't believe in hell. So. I don't think "saving" people needs to be #1 priority.

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If you're not religious, like I said, this isn't really your issue.

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It's not arbitrary at all. There may be a point where it is. But $10 million is not it.

If you are religious his prosperity gospel shtick should concern and offend you. People that might be convinced to spend money charitably are spending it on him instead.

Yes, God will judge him and us all. But that doesn't mean this is none of our concern here and now

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It does, but that's beyond the scope of what's I'm talking about. Your only concern should be from a money management point of view, as I've said previously.

I just think it's silly that we think our pastors should be poor or have worse things than us because of "selling the word" or "sacrifice"...or that somehow we are entitled to career ambition over they are not. (this is more of an indictment on our business pursuit than the pastors)

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Joel is the only one I actually still give money to. Not because I think God demands I give 10%. I don't even believe in the Bible much. But He is the most authentic and effective religious preacher in getting people to stop blaming others for their lives.

Joel takes no salary from Lakewood.

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That's more of a life coach pitch.

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Yeah well, I don't believe in hell. So. I don't think "saving" people needs to be #1 priority.

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If you're not religious, like I said, this isn't really your issue.

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I take big issue with preachers that prey on burdened and uneducated people with promises of healing or rewards by God if they send them money. That use the money their church gets to pay for their glamorous lifestyle.

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Fraud is fraud. Hell, at least these guys aren't calling you at home. Talk about manipulative.
No reason for you to be any more upset about this than that.

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I completely disagree.

There is a big diff, IMO, than a dude trying to trick you into buying a $29.99 malware program that you probably don't need and what some of these folks are doing.

As has been pointed out, they are peddling a particularly ugly form of spirituality and 'healing'. For someone to tell someone else to forego the chemo and send me $1000 and the Lord will heal you, is far worse, IMO, than most other 'scams' out there.

Those of faith should be even more disgusted with this than non-believers.

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This was extremely disturbing. What's just as bad to me is that female evangelist who preached it. She actually believes that she was doing something right with that recommendation. It wasn't just her taking advantage. Like most of the others. The lady actually believes what she is preaching. She believes that furthering her cause and collective prayer with her followers would have a better chance of curing this woman. That evil drugs were the wrong choice. That is what's absolutely sickening and dangerous.

Some may disagree but, that's what I saw with that evangelist in particular.

The others are terrible in your face charlitans but, she is the most dangerous.

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Fraud is fraud. Hell, at least these guys aren't calling you at home. Talk about manipulative.
No reason for you to be any more upset about this than that.

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I completely disagree.

There is a big diff, IMO, than a dude trying to trick you into buying a $29.99 malware program that you probably don't need and what some of these folks are doing.

As has been pointed out, they are peddling a particularly ugly form of spirituality and 'healing'. For someone to tell someone else to forego the chemo and send me $1000 and the Lord will heal you, is far worse, IMO, than most other 'scams' out there.

Those of faith should be even more disgusted with this than non-believers.

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This was particularly disturbing.

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Defrauding sick and elderly people is bad. But the vehicle used is not worse than, say, using medicine, as the front. Which also happens. Is it worse for a preacher to sell faith healing for cancer than a doctor to sell watered down chemo drugs?

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Joel is the only one I actually still give money to. Not because I think God demands I give 10%. I don't even believe in the Bible much. But He is the most authentic and effective religious preacher in getting people to stop blaming others for their lives.

Joel takes no salary from Lakewood.

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That's more of a life coach pitch.

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Yeah well, I don't believe in hell. So. I don't think "saving" people needs to be #1 priority.

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If you're not religious, like I said, this isn't really your issue.

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I take big issue with preachers that prey on burdened and uneducated people with promises of healing or rewards by God if they send them money. That use the money their church gets to pay for their glamorous lifestyle.

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I take issue with anyone that promises something they know they can't or won't deliver and gets rich off it.

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Fraud is fraud. Hell, at least these guys aren't calling you at home. Talk about manipulative.
No reason for you to be any more upset about this than that.

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I completely disagree.

There is a big diff, IMO, than a dude trying to trick you into buying a $29.99 malware program that you probably don't need and what some of these folks are doing.

As has been pointed out, they are peddling a particularly ugly form of spirituality and 'healing'. For someone to tell someone else to forego the chemo and send me $1000 and the Lord will heal you, is far worse, IMO, than most other 'scams' out there.

Those of faith should be even more disgusted with this than non-believers.

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This was particularly disturbing.

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Defrauding sick and elderly people is bad. But the vehicle used is not worse than, say, using medicine, as the front. Which also happens. Is it worse for a preacher to sell faith healing for cancer than a doctor to sell watered down chemo drugs?

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I edited my statement that you replied too.

What are you getting at with your response? I sense a motive.

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Fraud is fraud. Hell, at least these guys aren't calling you at home. Talk about manipulative.
No reason for you to be any more upset about this than that.

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I completely disagree.

There is a big diff, IMO, than a dude trying to trick you into buying a $29.99 malware program that you probably don't need and what some of these folks are doing.

As has been pointed out, they are peddling a particularly ugly form of spirituality and 'healing'. For someone to tell someone else to forego the chemo and send me $1000 and the Lord will heal you, is far worse, IMO, than most other 'scams' out there.

Those of faith should be even more disgusted with this than non-believers.

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This was particularly disturbing.

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Defrauding sick and elderly people is bad. But the vehicle used is not worse than, say, using medicine, as the front. Which also happens. Is it worse for a preacher to sell faith healing for cancer than a doctor to sell watered down chemo drugs?

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I edited my statement that you replied too.

What are you getting at with your response? I sense a motive.

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I'm not hiding anything. I dislike atheists singling out religious scams as being specially bad.

As to your edited response...

That then is not fraud. That's just another version of quackery. Which is dangerous. But no more so than other forms of medical quackery that make similar promises.

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As to your edited response...

That then is not fraud. That's just another version of quackery. Which is dangerous. But no more so than other forms of medical quackery that make similar promises.

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Ok.