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We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself

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- Carl Sagan

I always liked this quote from Dr Sagan. Imagine all of the universe with no one there to take it in. We see only a part of it though from a single vantage point. There are amazing things to see all across the universe that will never be seen by anyone or anything. But we can see the Earth with all its sights, much of our Solar System, beautiful nebulae, galaxies and black holes (its effects). The universe produced abundant complex molecules that became more and more complex over time until it could be considered alive. At first with only a vague comprehension of its environment until modern humans who can observe and at some level comprehend their environment extending to the edge of the universe. The Universe can now know itself.

Imagine if we weren't here though, and no other life anywhere. This is what occurred for the first few billion years of the universe. There were certainly galaxies, stars, planets. Not as many complex elements beyond hydrogen as there are now though. If life did not eventually arise for a brief time in the Universe's history and there was no life ever, imagine all this wonder with no one anywhere, anytime to see it.

Would the full interpretation of 'Nothing exists until it is observed' in Quantum Mechanics be realized? Would constants like the charge of an electron, the constant of gravity, the expansion rate of the universe, etc, never take on specific values? If no one was ever around to eventually observe these properties might they become a superposition of all values constrained by their probability distribution? Would the universe be in an indeterminate state like Schrodinger's Cat?

I disagree that we are sure that quantum mechanics works they way that you say that it works.

We know that there is some spooky crap when it comes down to the smallest parts, but I think we are just having difficulty understanding what the hell is going on down there at that level.

The book and blog "One Cosmos Under God" explore this at length. They changed my way of seeing and experiencing everything. Highly recommended.

Consciousness causing wavefunction collapse never made any sense to me.

"The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be."

"A sense of what the world is really like can be maddening; cannabis has brought me some feelings for what it is like to be crazy, and how we use that word "crazy" to avoid thinking about things that are too painful for us. "

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Consciousness causing wavefunction collapse never made any sense to me.

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Seems odd to me too. I think what actually causes the wave function to collapse is the recording of the event. Whether it's recorded in our memories or recorded on film. In the many worlds interpretation there could still be a vast number of universes where the film shows an event recorded in a different way. Perhaps the wave function doesn't collapse. Our observation of an event only tells us we're in the one universe of the multiverse in which it happened that way.

But as for the constants of the universe such as charge of an electron, constant of gravity, etc. These must be tuned a certain way or else life could not be possible. i.e. the universe would fly apart too fast for any matter to interact with other matter. Or it would instantly collapse. Or atoms would not be possible. Life may still find a way to exist using something other than atoms. Fine. But there are still certain values of constant that would have to rule out life. These constants can take on any value in the first instant of the universe. But once life observes the constants, the mere existence of the life form rules out all kinds of possibilities. And in quantum mechanics, these observations can affect the past as experiments demonstrate.

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I disagree that we are sure that quantum mechanics works they way that you say that it works.

We know that there is some spooky crap when it comes down to the smallest parts, but I think we are just having difficulty understanding what the hell is going on down there at that level.

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I don't like it either. I'm with Einstein. God doesn't play dice with the universe. But I know what experiments tell us about quantum mechanics. I agree that there is more going on, and that if we knew what that was we would know why a wave collapses a certain way, rather than only being able to predict the probabilities that it will collapse a certain way. This spooky crap, as you say, would probably fundamentally change how we view reality if we figure out what it is. Like that the universe is a hologram. Or that we live in a multiverse, or that the universe is really just math.

Did you guys study quantum mechanics, waves collapsing etc. in college or what? I have no clue what a "wave collapse" is, but would be interested in learning more if their is a "...for dummies" type intro book that doesn't require an advanced degree in physics to uderstand.

Hawking'a A Brief History of Time is pretty good

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Did you guys study quantum mechanics, waves collapsing etc. in college or what? I have no clue what a "wave collapse" is, but would be interested in learning more if their is a "...for dummies" type intro book that doesn't require an advanced degree in physics to uderstand.

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Here you go

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Did you guys study quantum mechanics, waves collapsing etc. in college or what? I have no clue what a "wave collapse" is, but would be interested in learning more if their is a "...for dummies" type intro book that doesn't require an advanced degree in physics to uderstand.

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p.s. Here's the beautiful part: A time paradox as well...

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If the detector replaces the screen and only views the atoms or photons after they have passed
through the slits, once again, the interference pattern vanishes and we get only two slits of light or atoms. How can we explain this? In 1978, American theoretical physicist John Wheeler (19112008) proposed that observing the photon or atom after it passes through the slit would ultimately determine if the photon or atom acts like a wave or particle. If you attempt to observe the photon or atom, or in any way collect data regarding either one's behavior, the interference pattern vanishes, and you only get two slits of photons or atoms. In 1984, Carroll Alley, Oleg Jakubowicz, and William Wickes proved this experimentally at the University of Maryland. This is the "delayed-choice experiment." Somehow, in measuring the future state of the photon, the results were able to influence their behavior at the slits. In effect, we are twisting the arrow of time, causing the future to influence the past. Numerous additional experiments confirm this result.

Let us pause here and be perfectly clear. Measuring the future state of the photon after it has gone through the slits causes the interference pattern to vanish. Somehow, a measurement in the future is able to reach back into the past and cause the photons to behave differently. In this case, the measurement of the photon causes its wave nature to vanish (i.e., collapse) even after it has gone through the slit. The photon now acts like a particle, not a wave. This paradox is clear evidence that a future action can reach back and change the past.

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http://www.louisdelmonte.com/a-classic-time-travel-paradox-double-slit-experiment-demonstrates-reverse-causality/

If you figure out what's really going on behind this simple high school experiment your place in history will be above Newton & Einstein.

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Did you guys study quantum mechanics, waves collapsing etc. in college or what? I have no clue what a "wave collapse" is, but would be interested in learning more if their is a "...for dummies" type intro book that doesn't require an advanced degree in physics to uderstand.

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Before reading or watching that other material, watch this. Its short.

Also, Richard Feynman is my hero.

I thought the general interpretation of the aforementioned scenario which is being termed a time paradox is that interaction with the measurement device causes the wavefunction into a single eigenstate, so to speak. So you take your particle beam and aim it at the diffraction grating. When it hits the diffraction grating it collapses into a superposition of two eigenstates a|x1>+b|x2> corresponding with the two slits. Making the measurement makes it further collapse into either |x1> or |x2> with probability a^2 and b^2 respectively. In light of this, I don't see how this is a time paradox. The only way that this is a time paradox is if we assume that the particle travels only through a single slit, which is contrary to what QM says.

Into a single eigen state after going through the slit.

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If the detector replaces the screen and only views the atoms or photons after they have passed
through the slits...

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Yea, so it collapses two into one. I don't see the time-paradox I guess.

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Yea, so it collapses two into one. I don't see the time-paradox I guess.

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When do you think it collapse the two into one? Before, after or while it passes through the slits?

After.

So they are unobserved as they pass through the slits. Seems like they would then pass through as a wave. But they don't. They pass through as a particle because the slit they're going through will be detected later.... at least that's how I've understood it.

The quote I like:

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"Given enough time, Hydrogen starts to wonder where it came from, and where its going."

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Love it

Delayed choice experiment is not reaching back in time as I understand, the effect is not occuring before the cause though it seems that way. There is definately some weird crap going on, and it does seem a conscious observer has an influence.

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Did you guys study quantum mechanics, waves collapsing etc. in college or what? I have no clue what a "wave collapse" is, but would be interested in learning more if their is a "...for dummies" type intro book that doesn't require an advanced degree in physics to uderstand.

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Once upon a time before I started spending all of my time reading things that help my career, I spent most of my weekends in the summer reading up about different viewpoints on this.

It has been a few years, but the more I read about it, the more facsinated I got, and the more I realized that scientists had discovered something that they could not meaningfully comprehend or interpret .

The universe is absolutely fascinating...... The sheer size of it is mind boggling..... I guess that's why I am such a nerd and still love watching an episode of Star Trek next generation every once in a while

Have you all heard about the biocentric universe theory? Pretty fascinating I thought.

[url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentric_universe[/url]

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Have you all heard about the biocentric universe theory? Pretty fascinating I thought.

[url] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentric_universe[/url]

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Hmmm... I don't think I buy that. While life is very complex I don't think that the biology of life is doing any tricks that our chemistry, and by extension, physics cannot explain.

91,

Your initial post seems to post biology, especially conscious biology, in a privileged position in the universe. If the wavefunction cannot collapse until observation by a sentient being one could argue that the universe as we know it would not exist without sentient beings. Of course, this raises the question of where did the backdrop for consciousness to evolve come from in the first place. What came first, the consciousness or the universe? While I did not watch the linked video, I briefly read about the biocentric universe on Wikipedia, and I honestly don't see the distinction between it and the consciousness-causes-collapse idea you posted in the OP.

Because of this from the Wikipedia page:

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It asserts that current theories of the physical world do not work, and can never be made to work, until they fully account for life and consciousness. While physics is considered fundamental to the study of the universe, and chemistry fundamental to the study of life, biocentrism claims that scientists will need to place biology before the other sciences to produce a theory of everything.

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I think our current physics is adequate to explain life and conscious. I do not think that a better understanding of biology will explain wave collapse. I think a better understanding of quantum mechanics or a more fundamental physical theory will explain what it is about an observer that collapses a wave.

Ahh, my mistake. I thought you were asserting that a conscious observer is what causes collapse.

A conscious observer in a universe that works as ours does collapses a wave.

I have a question for you. Do you think that with complete knowledge of how nerons work and the structure of the human brain that we can, with today's theories of physics, chemistry and biology, simulate a conscious brain?

But it's not the consciousness itself that causes collapse, any interaction with a particle will do it. If you disagree with this, I need a source, because it's contrary to my understanding.

As for your question, I don't know. With today's technology, certainly not anything approaching the full complexity of the human brain. With today's theories assuming infinitely fast technology? I don't know.

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But it's not the consciousness itself that causes collapse, any interaction with a particle will do it. If you disagree with this, I need a source, because it's contrary to my understanding.

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QM is generally contrary to everyone's understanding I am not aware of any experiments that collapse a wave without an observer, nor can I conceive of how it would be verified that only a particle can collapse a wave without observing it.

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As for your question, I don't know. With today's technology, certainly not anything approaching the full complexity of the human brain. With today's theories assuming infinitely fast technology? I don't know.

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It would undoubtedly require a lot of storage space, and a lot of CPUs to emulate the neural network. These obstacles can be overcome. And real-time isn't even a requirement. I'm just asking do you think it would be possible.

I'm asking because if a consciousness can be simulated like this, then our current scientific theories are adequate to explain consciousness. And the simulation would probably not even require QM to run. This is what I mean when I say a conscious observer doesn't necessarily cause a wave collapse all by itself, but a conscious observer in a universe that works as ours does collapses a wave.

"QM is generally contrary to everyone's understanding I am not aware of any experiments that collapse a wave without an observer, nor can I conceive of how it would be verified that only a particle can collapse a wave without observing it."

http://www.danko-nikolic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Yu-and-Nikolic-Qm-and-consciousness-Annalen-Physik.pdf