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The sentiment that has led to us being by far the most incarcerated country on the planet. The Russians and Chinese are shocked by the extent and severity of our police state.

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Exactly. "For their own good" is a dangerous mindset that has led to countless abuses.

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It certainly can. I believe the mentally ill have rights. I'm not about violating them. That doesn't mean I should just watch them kill themselves.

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It certainly can. I believe the mentally ill have rights.

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Except when you need to violate them "for their own good".

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I'm not about violating them. That doesn't mean I should just watch them kill themselves

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Nobody said just sit around and watch them kill themselves. Once again, though, you continue to move the goalposts.

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In my garage? No. But if believed they'd get help through law enforcement and out of a likely sex slave arrangement I'd consider that.

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So, you admit it would be immoral for you to do, but somehow it becomes moral because the perpetrator wears the right costume? I didn't realize you thought morality was relative.

If an action is immoral for you, it's immoral for the cop too.

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Are you telling me you can't see when someone is genuinely trying to hurt themselves?

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This isn't the condition in your original hypothetical. Stop moving the goalposts.

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You're operating well outside the Bible now.

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How so?

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I'm not equipped as a private citizen to render law enforcement assistance. This isn't about morality being relative. It's wrong for me to assume expertise I don't have. I'm not a doctor. So I don't prescribe drugs, even if I think they could help. And I'm not a cop, so I don't lock people in a homemade jail.

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It certainly can. I believe the mentally ill have rights.

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Except when you need to violate them "for their own good".

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I'm not about violating them. That doesn't mean I should just watch them kill themselves

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Nobody said just sit around and watch them kill themselves. Once again, though, you continue to move the goalposts.

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Well what is it you propose to do for the homeless guy in the road?

I've seen a man walking naked in the middle of a downtown la plaza. Yelling screaming, flailing arms. How do you handle that?

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I'm not equipped as a private citizen to render law enforcement assistance. This isn't about morality being relative. It's wrong for me to assume expertise I don't have. I'm not a doctor. So I don't prescribe drugs, even if I think they could help.

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I didn't ask if you are equipped or not. I've asked if it would be moral for you to do so.

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And I'm not a cop, so I don't lock people in a homemade jail.

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Why not? Because it would be immoral to do so. Yet, you have no issue with someone putting on a costume and doing that very thing.

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Well what is it you propose to do for the homeless guy in the road?

I've seen a man walking naked in the middle of a downtown la plaza. Yelling screaming, flailing arms. How do you handle that?

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I've already answered your hypothetical. You just chose to move the goalposts after I answered it.

You seem to believe that behavior that would be considered immoral for a private citizen to engage in, somehow magically becomes moral by putting on a costume.

But, I do notice that you were successful in derailing this thread with your fixation. Can we please get back to the actual subject of the thread?

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Well what is it you propose to do for the homeless guy in the road?

I've seen a man walking naked in the middle of a downtown la plaza. Yelling screaming, flailing arms. How do you handle that?

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I've already answered your hypothetical. You just chose to move the goalposts after I answered it.

You seem to believe that behavior that would be considered immoral for a private citizen to engage in, somehow magically becomes moral by putting on a costume.

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I missed that. What was your answer?

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Well what is it you propose to do for the homeless guy in the road?

I've seen a man walking naked in the middle of a downtown la plaza. Yelling screaming, flailing arms. How do you handle that?

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I've already answered your hypothetical. You just chose to move the goalposts after I answered it.

You seem to believe that behavior that would be considered immoral for a private citizen to engage in, somehow magically becomes moral by putting on a costume.

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It is not moral for me to assume an authority and expertise I do not have. It's not just a costume when a cop puts on a uniform anymore than a doctor's white coat is one.

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But, I do notice that you were successful in derailing this thread with your fixation. Can we please get back to the actual subject of the thread?

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I think this is the point. Is it moral to put yourself in harms way to save another? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

Oh, I'm sorry. You changed the hypothetical from a homeless crazy man in the street to a homeless crazy man in a downtown LA plaza. Same answer as before.

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It is not moral for me to assume an authority and expertise I do not have. It's not just a costume when a cop puts on a uniform anymore than a doctor's white coat is one.

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It's not moral for you because you do not own that person, and have no moral right to tie them up and throw them in a cage against their will. Wearing a costume doesn't change that. An action doesn't become moral by putting on the right costume. Wearing a costume doesn't make the authority "rightful". It just means you claim a monopoly on the use of immoral force.

Congrats, though, on derailing the thread. None of your hypotheticals have anything to do with the case of Dr. Brantly.

[This message has been edited by RetiredAg (edited 8/8/2014 1:36p).]

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Oh, I'm sorry. You changed the hypothetical from a homeless crazy man in the street to a homeless crazy man in a downtown LA plaza. Same answer as before.

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It is not moral for me to assume an authority and expertise I do not have. It's not just a costume when a cop puts on a uniform anymore than a doctor's white coat is one.

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It's not moral for you because you do not own that person, and have no moral right to tie them up and throw them in a cage against their will. Wearing a costume doesn't change that. An action doesn't become moral by putting on the right costume. Wearing a costume doesn't make the authority "rightful". It just means you claim a monopoly on the use of immoral force.

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You'll have to forgive me: I'm still missing what your answer is.

And your characterization of authority derived from expertise as just a costume is just silly. Gotta think I'm being trolled.

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You'll have to forgive me: I'm still missing what your answer is.

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It's on page 1.

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And your characterization of authority derived from expertise as just a costume is just silly. Gotta think I'm being trolled.

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So, if a guy spends 10 years as a cop, he then has the moral authority to handcuff someone and throw them in a cage as a civilian? I mean, his "expertise" hasn't changed. So, you are okay with him tying up a prostitute and throwing her in a cage in his garage? You know, for protect her from her self-destructive behavior?

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You'll have to forgive me: I'm still missing what your answer is.

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It's on page 1.

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And your characterization of authority derived from expertise as just a costume is just silly. Gotta think I'm being trolled.

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So, if a guy spends 10 years as a cop, he then has the moral authority to handcuff someone and throw them in a cage as a civilian? I mean, his "expertise" hasn't changed. So, you are okay with him tying up a prostitute and throwing her in a cage in his garage? You know, for protect her from her self-destructive behavior?

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I am not in favor of removing someone from one bad situation, just to imprison them. However, if law enforcement can get someone away from a bad life to a better one, I'm in favor of that, even if it means initially doing something that person may not want done.

If a child was being molested in a home if be okay using done force to remove them, even if the child didn't want it.

I would not be okay locking them in a garage.

Your dancing around the question is becoming tiresome.

You are the one that is tying "experience" and "authority" with morality. So, if a guy spends 10 years as a cop, he then has the moral authority to handcuff someone and throw them in a cage as a civilian? I mean, his "expertise" hasn't changed. So, you are okay with him tying up a prostitute and throwing her in a cage in his garage? You know, for protect her from her self-destructive behavior?

Just answer the questions above. If you won't, then there's no point in continuing in satisfying your fixation.

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However, if law enforcement can get someone away from a bad life to a better one, I'm in favor of that, even if it means initially doing something that person may not want done.

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Wow, do you really want to go down this slippery slope? So, whose definition of "bad life" are we going to use before taking them against their will? Is it only okay for cops because of their experience? Is it moral for a retired cop to "get someone away from a bad life" against their will?

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Your dancing around the question is becoming tiresome.

You are the one that is tying "experience" and "authority" with morality. So, if a guy spends 10 years as a cop, he then has the moral authority to handcuff someone and throw them in a cage as a civilian? I mean, his "expertise" hasn't changed. So, you are okay with him tying up a prostitute and throwing her in a cage in his garage? You know, for protect her from her self-destructive behavior?

Just answer the questions above. If you won't, then there's no point in continuing in satisfying your fixation.

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No. There is no dancing.

Realize that a lot if sex workers in this country are sex slaves. If it takes arresting them initially to remove them from that situation I'm fine with that. I'm not find with anyone just locking them in a cage for the misfortune of having been sex trafficked here.

If someone genuinely just wants to be a prostitute, that's up to them.

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However, if law enforcement can get someone away from a bad life to a better one, I'm in favor of that, even if it means initially doing something that person may not want done.

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Wow, do you really want to go down this slippery slope? So, whose definition of "bad life" are we going to use before taking them against their will? Is it only okay for cops because of their experience? Is it moral for a retired cop to "get someone away from a bad life" against their will?

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Is it such a slippery slope we have to tolerate slavery or molestation?

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If it takes arresting them initially to remove them from that situation I'm fine with that.

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So, you are fine with any regular civilian doing this? Or since "expertise" seems to be how you define morality, what about a retired cop?

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I'm not find with anyone just locking them in a cage for the misfortune of having been sex trafficked here.

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But what if it's for their own good? You are the one that set that standard.

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Your dancing around the question is becoming tiresome.

You are the one that is tying "experience" and "authority" with morality. So, if a guy spends 10 years as a cop, he then has the moral authority to handcuff someone and throw them in a cage as a civilian? I mean, his "expertise" hasn't changed. So, you are okay with him tying up a prostitute and throwing her in a cage in his garage? You know, for protect her from her self-destructive behavior?

Just answer the questions above. If you won't, then there's no point in continuing in satisfying your fixation.

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No police officer has been trained to be a private jailer.

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No police officer has been trained to be a private jailer.

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LOL man, you are really having to stretch to rationalize moral relativism.

So, since it now appears to be the "private jailing" aspect of it, I would assume you are okay with a retired cop handcuffing a prostitute and taking her to the police station, right?

[This message has been edited by RetiredAg (edited 8/8/2014 1:59p).]

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If it takes arresting them initially to remove them from that situation I'm fine with that.

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So, you are fine with any regular civilian doing this? Or since "expertise" seems to be how you define morality, what about a retired cop?

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I'm not find with anyone just locking them in a cage for the misfortune of having been sex trafficked here.

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But what if it's for their own good? You are the one that set that standard.

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You're making me assume a bad outcome. Why do I have to do that?

I'm not in favor of imprisoning a sex slave or child for their own good. I'm in favor of a use of force to remove them from that situation to a better one.

As slippery slopes goes, yours doesn't give you much to do to help someone being abused.

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No police officer has been trained to be a private jailer.

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LOL man, you are really having to stretch to rationalize moral relativism.

So, since it now appears to be the "private jailing" aspect of it, I would assume you are okay with a retired cop handcuffing a prostitute and taking her to the police station, right?

[This message has been edited by RetiredAg (edited 8/8/2014 1:59p).]

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Your opinion is that's the same as locking her in a garage? Is the cop giving her a right to counsel? Any legal rights at all?

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Is the cop giving her a right to counsel? Any legal rights at all?

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This has no bearing on the morality of the initial act.

It's okay. I understand the statist position is one that requires moral relativism. We just pretend it's not relativistic because we hide behind their costume. It requires one consider immoral actions of the individual become moral when the very same act is committed by the state. I just don't believe morality is relative.

Jacques,
I understand you don't agree with me. That's fine. As long as my beliefs are consistent with the Scripture, I'm fine if others disagree. Can we please, though, put whatever issue you may have with me in the past? This thread has completely been derailed.

If you wish to talk about the subject of the OP, great. But, seriously, can we please stop with this fixation on my views of the state and violence? All it results in is page after page of bickering. I'm confident others are tired of seeing it as well.

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Jacques,
I understand you don't agree with me. That's fine. As long as my beliefs are consistent with the Scripture, I'm fine if others disagree. Can we please, though, put whatever issue you may have with me in the past? This thread has completely been derailed.

If you wish to talk about the subject of the OP, great. But, seriously, can we please stop with this fixation on my views of the state and violence? All it results in is page after page of bickering. I'm confident others are tired of seeing it as well.

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Are you being serious ?

You're the one here suggesting my view is basically no different than locking people in my garage. You get there not from moral relativism. But from completely ignoring the distinctions of an operational justice system with due process rights.

Yes. Turning every thread into some debate over my views on violence and the state is just tiresome. I am guilty as well. I choose to respond. I'm just wanting to move on from it.

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Yes. Turning every thread into some debate over my views on violence and the state is just tiresome. I am guilty as well. I choose to respond. I'm just wanting to move on from it.

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You're the one making this about you. I'm not personalizing it. Am I not allowed to disagree?

Jacques,
No, you continued your fixation with this post that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread:

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To pick up on a hypo from last night: suppose I see someone flailing wildly in the middle of the street. They're clearly in drugs or affected by mental illness. Am I obligated to put myself in harms way by getting them out of traffic, with either this person or traffic killing us both? Or can I call police, who are trained to help?

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Now, I admittedly shouldn't have taken the bait on your silly hypothetical. But, I did, and that's my fault. Disagree with me all you want. That's fine. I just don't have the desire to turn any thread I post on into a discussion on my views on the state and violence.

Like I tried to tell you yesterday as you were fixating on me. It's enough. Just move on.

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I understand you don't agree with me. That's fine. As long as my beliefs are consistent with MY UNDERSTANDING OF Scripture, I'm fine if others disagree.

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FIFY

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Jacques,
No, you continued your fixation with this post that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the thread:

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To pick up on a hypo from last night: suppose I see someone flailing wildly in the middle of the street. They're clearly in drugs or affected by mental illness. Am I obligated to put myself in harms way by getting them out of traffic, with either this person or traffic killing us both? Or can I call police, who are trained to help?

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Now, I admittedly shouldn't have taken the bait on your silly hypothetical. But, I did, and that's my fault. Disagree with me all you want. That's fine. I just don't have the desire to turn any thread I post on into a discussion on my views on the state and violence.

Like I tried to tell you yesterday as you were fixating on me. It's enough. Just move on.

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That hypo was relevant.