77:

quote:

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I hope you come to the realization that we are under Christ's law.

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And I hope you come to the realization that "Christ's Law" and the "Torah" are the same thing. If you are not following Torah, you are not following "Christ's Law."

We are commanded to be like Yeshua. Yeshua observed Torah, and so should we. To be "Christ-like" is to be Torah-observant. The Torah is what teaches us what Yeshua is like.

Yeshuah obeyed the Torah, so how can one claim to be "Christ-like" without obeying the same Torah that He obeyed?

The Torah are God's commandments. It is against man's nature to obey God. Therefore, man has constructed arguments as to why he doesn't have to obey.


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 9/6/2003 1:06p).]

quote:

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Yeshuah obeyed the Torah, so how can one claim to be "Christ-like" without obeying the same Torah that He obeyed?

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Recognize the assumption that you've already made. You've defined resemblance to Christ in terms of Torah obedience without a reason for that definition, and you've defined obedience in terms of a particular set of rules. The response, then, is that Christ-likeness is not intended to mean likeness in that sense, and that obedience to the Torah is not the same as obedience to the set of rules given to Israel on Mt. Sinai.

Physics96:

quote:

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Recognize the assumption that you've already made. You've defined resemblance to Christ in terms of Torah obedience without a reason for that definition, and you've defined obedience in terms of a particular set of rules. The response, then, is that Christ-likeness is not intended to mean likeness in that sense, and that obedience to the Torah is not the same as obedience to the set of rules given to Israel on Mt. Sinai.

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I haven't made an assumption at all.

The Torah is the very description of God's nature. If you want to know the answer to the age-old question "What would Jesus do?" in any given situation, then just look at the Torah -- that's what He would do!

The Torah isn't a "set of rules." It isn't "Law." The word "Torah" means "teaching," and it is a Father's wise teaching to His children.

The Torah is a Father's way of teaching His children to brush their teeth, make their beds, say "Please" and "Thank you," share their toys, "don't hit your sister," do their homework, etc. It is what teaches us how to become well-behaved adults.

To be "Christ-like" means to behave as Yeshua behaved -- and Yeshua behaved by Torah.


Bracy

Bracy,

quote:

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You want to talk about church history? Let's look at church history:


Are these the "great minds" you speak of?

The fact of the matter is, the early church founders were anti-semitic. They viewed the Torah as a "Jewish thing" and wanted no part of it. They considered the Torah to be nothing more than "Jewish superstition" and were about to do anything that they considered to be "Jewish."

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Ok, you have already demonstrated that you distort things, and have not interest in the truth even if it is put under your nose. Why on earth would I trust a bunch of guys that seem just like you not showing the primary sources of texts, but only their commentary of what those people said? Even if they did show some anti-Semitism from some people, you then go on to assume and state that they then denied the Pentateuch because of that? You offer no proof of that, but you just draw it as a logical conclusion… Please forgive me if I find none of your argument compelling.

quote:

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That's exactly my point! Yeshua taught us to obey the Torah from the heart but Christianity teaches that we don't have to obey at all!

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No, he taught that Love fulfills it. Some versions of Christianity teach that moral law has been abolished, but your charge is simply not true. And you still distort the Word Torah, and never addressed that…

quote:

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You'll have to keep repeating until you actually mean what you say. If you're not keeping the Sabbath or the kosher laws, for instance, then you're not keeping even that portion of the Torah which you claim to believe hasn't been done away with. In short, your actions don't match your words.

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The kosher laws are not part of the Moral law… So your statement about them is not true… The day of the week of the Sabbath has changed to the first day of the week as the scriptures teach, and it is now called the Lord’s day.

quote:

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Secondly, there is no scriptural support for the notion that the Torah should be divided up in this way, and that we now only need to keep that portion referred to as "Moral Law." It was Thomas Aquinas who divided the Torah in this way -- a non-Torah educated gentile.

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I have shown you the verses that do argue for this separation, and that they were viewed as different things by the NT writers, but you have refused to even address them.

quote:

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It completely boggles my mind how Christians make such a fuss over the removal of the 10 Commandments from public places when Christianity doesn't even keep half of them!

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I don’t know where this came from…We were not talking about this at all..

quote:

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That isn't true at all, I've answered every one of your points, directly and explicitly.
Here you are, making the claim that I don't answer your points, while I'm still waiting for you to respond to my point, which I repeatedly requested no less than half a dozen times!

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You simply dismissed my many references scriptures as corrupted views with a wave of your hand. You never even offered any counter interpretations of them. I took paragraph after paragraph and post after post to answer your question, even asking for your clarification so I could try and provide a more clear answer. Each time I was also raising my own questions (and even offered empirical proof) about things your distorted use of the term Torah to which you never simply responded to. None of what you said was true. I think perhaps you and I are wasting our time with each other. We are not in the same reality. Either I am not completely in reality or you are not.


[This message has been edited by YYZ (edited 9/6/2003 2:34p).]

"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:14-16)

The sabbath day has been nailed to the cross.

"But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face." (II Cor 3:7)

The 10 commandments are reffered to as "the ministry of death".

Tithing Prohibited: 2 Cor 9:7
Eating Pork Permitted: Mk 7:18-19
Sabbath Abolished: Col 2:14-16

Eph 2:15-16 -- "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."

It says here AS WELL that the 10 commandments have been abolished.

Bracy,

I hope you come to the realization that we are under the law of Christ.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

You said:

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I haven't made an assumption at all.

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You then proceeded to say:

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The Torah is the very description of God's nature. If you want to know the answer to the age-old question "What would Jesus do?" in any given situation, then just look at the Torah -- that's what He would do!

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The italicized part is the assumption (and by the way, that is not an age-old question; it's a bumper sticker maxim by a bunch of American individualists who can't seem to understand that Jesus was a bit more than a good example). You have assumed that the definition of being Christ-like is to follow the Torah simply because Jesus followed the Torah. The conclusion does not follow from the premise.

quote:

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The Torah isn't a "set of rules." It isn't "Law." The word "Torah" means "teaching," and it is a Father's wise teaching to His children.

The Torah is a Father's way of teaching His children to brush their teeth, make their beds, say "Please" and "Thank you," share their toys, "don't hit your sister," do their homework, etc. It is what teaches us how to become well-behaved adults.

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Exactly, and I will take your analogy to its logical conclusion. When a child is young, and particularly incapable of seeing the reason behind rules, the child obeys because the parent says so. One does not rationalize to a child; one simply states the rule. So it is with the people who had the Messiah hidden from them. You don't inquire into the reason for the commandments; you just obey them. After one is mature, one does not follow the rules blindly. Many times, the reason for the rule itself will become obviated. For example, I don't wait for my mother to take me to elementary school every weekday, even though I was required as a child to get ready for school every morning. I cross the street without adult accompaniment. Sometimes, I eat cookies before dinner. What is the difference between me as a child and me as an adult? Simple; I am sufficiently mature to discern the principle behind the rules, and to implement the principle in a different set of ways. I can cross the street, even though I am breaking my childhood rule of not crossing the street without an adult, because I am capable of obtaining the result (not getting run over) without needing to follow the rule. I am not disrespecting my parents because I don't follow a rule that would be absolutely pointless in my present situation. I *could* follow the rule. I might even follow such a rule to make some demonstration, or because it is expedient now. But I would be foolish to follow the rule for the rule's sake knowing full well why the rule was given to me.

Things are immoral for violating the principles behind the rules, not for violating the rules themselves. If the practical reasons for many of the ritual cleanliness standards (principally hygiene and greater food safety) have been obviated, there is absolutely no reason for me to follow them. There is a reason for me to engage in proper food safety, proper diet, etc., but the way that I implement the rule is irrelevant to the principle. Hence, the Apostles point out that the principle of the Law is love (and opk's article points out that the principle of the law is very much applicable today), but those with knowledge of the Messiah and guidance of the Holy Spirit are not bound to specific rules, but to the underlying principles behind those rules (aka, the moral law!). The Law to the Jews served a temporal purpose (to separate the Jewish people as a chosen people) that our obedience would not serve to illustrate today (since the basis for being "chosen" is no longer a cultural and lineal one). The Messiah's perfect compliance with the Law served a purpose (fulfillment of prophecy) that ours would not; so in our case, we would be following a rule (or many rules) without a reason. In other words, don't obey a rule because it's a rule; obey a rule because there's a reason for it. With the vast majority of the Mosaic Law, there is no longer a reason, and obeying a rule without reason serves no good purpose.

YYZ:

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Ok, you have already demonstrated that you distort things, and have not interest in the truth even if it is put under your nose. Why on earth would I trust a bunch of guys that seem just like you not showing the primary sources of texts, but only their commentary of what those people said?

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I have not distorted anything, and I take offense at your accusation. I demand an apology.

I provided the url for the church history information, which I took from the Jewish-Christian Relations website, sponsored by the International Council of Christians and Jews.

Until I receive an apology, you and I have nothing further to discuss.


Bracy

YYZ:

Here is some of that information you claim that I "distorted." You read it yourself, and tell me if I distorted anything.

This is a direct quote from Martin Luther's "On Jews and Their Lies:"

quote:

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What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews ... Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us ... so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews ...

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[emphasis mine]


http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html


Bracy

The very same list that I posted can also be found on the following website, sponsored by the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_pers1.htm


Bracy

Bracy and all,

“What would Jesus do?” is the rankest, most pernicious kind of evil and heresy. We are going to presume to mimic the Perfect One with performance out of our old dead flesh? I not only think not, I know not!

But, you are absolutely correct to affirm that what you say you believe – “behave” your way to Christ-likeness – has exactly the same kind of quality – yes, it is HERESY.

If we could “behave our way” to compliance with God’s Law, it would have been sadomasochism to the infinite power for God to ask Christ to volunteer to die on the cross.

I struggle so hard to try to find the words that will shake me and all of you, every one of us; shocking us from the deadly evil complacency and smug self-satisfaction and self-righteousness that is the ONLY POSSIBLE RESULT of the Way, we might even say, the LAW OF PERFORMANCE.

For God to be pleased with that kind of tripe and deception would require that we earn a standing ovation from the Denizens of Eternity. But, the very best we “actors” could ever possibly hope for is the equivalent of never even getting to practice for a play in an off-off-off-Broadway theater on Mars where the director never even got a script. No, there never was a director. Or a set. Or a stage. It’s illusion. It’s delusion. It’s a sham directly from the script of the Subtle One. It’s the Twilight Zone that seems so compelling but ends up in misery and heartache and “Why me, Lord?” And worse. Much worse.

ONLY CHRIST could do what only Christ could do! Why is that so hard for “good people” to understand and accept?

Humans cannot “behave their way” out of a spiritual toilet. Why do humans want to pretend that we can do something positive by our performance? And, why would we perpetuate this evil, filthy heresy upon our progeny?

Christ could strike a tent in human flesh and assume a 100% human persona. But, as a human He could no more fulfill the Law than you or I. The necessity of Christ to become human was in order to perfectly and completely fulfill the Law of the Kinsman Redeemer. Only one near of kin to us humans, in other words another human, could pay the price to redeem us from our folly.

“Any old God” could fulfill the Law. That would be fine, except it wouldn’t pull our human cornflakes out of the mush at all. Only the God-man, Christ Jesus, with His dual nature could both fulfill the Law AND offer redemption to his human kinfolks. And, the only ones who can behave like him are those who have been remade in character and nature LIKE Him.

But, let’s please start at the proper starting place. In our human-centric world, of which the above heresies are just a part of those humanist fallacies that have crept into or been planted in the Church, you can ask anyone, even “Christians”, “What was Christ’s purpose for dieing on the Cross?” Invariably the answer you will get is “to save us from our sins”. WRONG. HUMAN-CENTRIC STUPIDITY.

Jesus went to the Cross to please the Father. “My meat is to do the will of the Father Who sent Me.” That’s God-Centric.

That’s not heretical. That’s acceptable and pleasing, a “sweet-savor offering”, before the nose of and in the sight of the Holy God. That’s typical of the kind of spirit, wisdom, logic and God-liness that allowed the God in the God-man Christ Jesus to fulfill the Law.

Every human from Adam on, with One unique exception, has failed to live up to the Glory of God. To fall short of the Glory of God is the very essence of sin. Any other definition of sin properly considered will take you from God-centric propriety to man-centric blasphemy.

It doesn’t matter if you fall one nanometer short or a billion light-years short of the Glory of God, you are short-fallen and deserving of the worst fate you can imagine multiplied by the largest number you can imagine.

How can I express in words that a human, Christian or otherwise, can understand – how horrible, depraved, pernicious, malicious, evil, deadly, insidious, etc., etc., ad infinitum, it is to fall one single nanometer short of the glory of God? Humans simply cannot grasp that. We don’t have enough “computing power”. In other words, we’re not God.

Humans think “Well, I’m better than old so-and-so in the better-than-you pew, so I must be alright with God.” We can’t help it. That’s the way we are bound to think, and we can’t change our natures (though, anticipating the Gospel message, God can – and does).

But, then, no matter how hard we try to deceive ourselves that our depravity is not complete and total, we don’t just fall a nanometer short of God’s Glory, either. We fall millions of light-years short of God’s Glory. Maybe billions. That’s the most “practical” reason why all of this “be like Jesus” charade is such a fraud, a sham, a hoax, and a travesty before God and His Christ. It’s a smokescreen. It’s a farce of eternal and Biblical proportions.

Why is this done, then? Is it for God’s benefit? Flat-out, that’s a great big eternal “No!” Why, then, is this sham perpetrated? Because the human heart, ever since the fall of Adam, has been only evil and pernicious and incapable of anything pleasing to God at all. But, under the pretense of “pleasing God”, Christians and most other “mainline religious folks”, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et.al., have been sold a bill of goods that if we humans just do “something”, then two very wonderful things will happen: (1) We will be “better people”; and (2) God will be pleased with us.

Both of those are BIG LIES from the Father of Lies. But, best I can tell, that’s what’s being taught in the majority of churches or the majority of “Christian Study Groups”. And, the human heart buys into that crap – hook, line and sinker.

So, that all sounds like such horrible, irredeemable hopelessness.

If it depended on anything of or from man, it most assuredly would be hopeless.

And, the beginning of the answer sounds nearly as hopeless. The only way for a human to “behave like Christ” is to be “like Christ”. But, God’s Spirit lets us know pretty quickly that we are not really like Christ in our fleshly natures, at which point we universally cry out as Isaiah, “Woe, woe is me! I am a man of unclean lips!”

Bracy, I’m sorry to continually pick on you, but you are so perfectly the antithesis of what God intends to teach us through His whole Word, that I can’t help it.

Another of the wrong-headed views promoted here by Bracy and several others is that we can LEARN from the Law. LEARN about the character of God. ONLY God can know the character of God. The Law can teach us nothing, NOTHING, of lasting and permanent and eternal value. The ONLY thing that the Law, Torah, can do is show us we are “headed for the rocks”.

The Law is a Lighthouse, showing us danger. But, just like any lighthouse, it cannot swim out to save us from the shoals we can barely apprehend but which we know are dangerous, even disastrous, ever-present and near. The Lighthouse tells us when we must send up a flare and send out a May-Day, an SOS. But, it cannot help us any further. It cannot rescue us, cannot even be aware of us. For that we need a rescue party.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are the Rescue Party. God the Father asked the Son to volunteer to become our Eternal Kinsman Redeemer and the Perfect Servant. And the Son paid such an enormous price to perform what seems to most of us so thankless a job! But, the Father was so pleased that He gave Christ a Name that was above every Name and gave to Christ a ragtag band of ne’er-do-wells as a reward – us! I’m not so sure that was much of a bargain!

But, here’s where the rubber meets the road on this discussion.

Christ is “driving the Rescue Chopper” to save us from the Shoals of Sin. Everything is prepared for the Rescue, and not one bit of it is due to anything those being rescued have done! NO PERFORMANCE!

Jesus said, “If I go not away, the Comforter, paraklete, cannot come.” The Holy Spirit comes alongside us in our fast-sinking vessels and plucks us one-by-one from the brine.

Significantly, the Holy Spirit seeks nothing for Himself, but deflects all Glory to Christ. And if you hear any teaching exalting the Person of the Holy Spirit, it does not please Him; it grieves Him. It is a false and fleshly presumption on someone’s part to deny what God clearly and Biblically intends.

The ONLY “think” that we can learn that can advance our spiritual growth is and always will be just this: “Trust Jesus.” In the midst of the monstrous breaking waves, relax, be at peace, and trust Jesus.

Whenever and wherever the Holy Spirit finds faith in Jesus in or out of “God’s People” (for not all of Israel is of Israel), He goes to work recreating the Life of Jesus in that otherwise miserable human. Suddenly you have something on a vastly smaller scale that is qualitatively “like” Jesus. The dual nature is present. The character of God is indwelling that human, and that Life cannot sin. That Life is the only thing in any human that can ever cause that human to please God.

That New Creature in Christ Jesus does not need the Whip of the Law to beat him into conformity with any rules or standards. So long as the human continues to trust God for his (and His) Life, the “Natural” (out of the new Nature) obedience from the Creature will be of the same character as the obedience Christ gave to the Father… “My meat is to do the will of the Father.” Trying to beat the Law into that poor soul would never give it anything but scars. Living from that Life within makes true obedience assured.

Does the New Creature look at Torah every day? Certainly not! He has the One of Whom the Torah was merely a pale reflection indwelling and empowering him. Who needs a Lighthouse when the Light of the Life of the Noonday Sun illuminates you in your entirety, bringing ALL things to light? For the New Creature in Christ the Lighthouse is no more than a worn out flashlight, no longer even capable of teaching, because the Master Teacher has come to indwell the “clean-swept house”. And, He will stay there as long as He is trusted.

And, there was still no “performance” on our part, no “self-rescue”. Christ is All in All.

To God be the Glory Forever. Amen.

Bracy,

quote:

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I have not distorted anything, and I take offense at your accusation. I demand an apology.

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I’m sorry that you are offended, but it is still my position that you have distorted the intent of verses of scripture by applying the term Torah where the Hebrew word “towrah” or the Greek word “nomos” was used insisting in every case that it was referring to Deutorocanonical and Mosaic laws. You also never answered this charge, nor gave any specific evidence as to how all the verses I showed you were distorted by me, as you accused me of doing.

Your attempt to imply that my accusation of distortion applied to your insistence of Anti-Semetic views throughout church history demonstrate to me that you are not even in the same conversation here, as that was never what I said you distorted. You are seeing what you want to see. I believe rational conversation is just not going to happen at this point.


No one is maliciously trying to hurt you Bracy. Keep seeking the Lord, and put your hope in Him!

I think it is best that everyone try to leave Bracy be.



[This message has been edited by YYZ (edited 9/6/2003 8:50p).]

YYZ:

Doesn't sound like much of an apology to me. I have distorted nothing, and I resent the accusation.

I have not accused you of distorting anything. All I said was that the verses you quoted were pulled out of context, which is not the same thing as distortion.


Bracy

posted 2:21p, 9/6/2003



"Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col 2:14-16)

The sabbath day has been nailed to the cross.

"But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face." (II Cor 3:7)

The 10 commandments are reffered to as "the ministry of death".

Tithing Prohibited: 2 Cor 9:7
Eating Pork Permitted: Mk 7:18-19
Sabbath Abolished: Col 2:14-16

Eph 2:15-16 -- "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."

It says here AS WELL that the 10 commandments have been abolished.

Bracy,

I hope you come to the realization that we are under the law of Christ.


texags77@yahoo.com
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Bracy, you said this: "The Torah is the very description of God's nature.

This is the very center of the false idea you are proclaiming!

Jesus is the very description of God's nature not the Law!

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 9/7/2003 8:56p).]

AgGermany,

Well and strongly said, though we can neither ever truly say it well nor strongly enough!