One way ticket?
A free ride?
The train or the tracks?
Who bought the ticket?
Who gets on?

To the Christians at Galatia from Paul.

"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

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"You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

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The Torah was never given for the purpose of justification. One cannot be saved through Torah-obedience. Instead, it is how a person who had been saved is expected to live.

The purpose of the Torah is to teach us what righteous living is. Without it, we wouldn't know.

One does not become a citizen of God's Kingdom by obeying the Torah, it is the laws of the Kingdom once that person has become a citizen.

Yeshua died so that we may enter His Kingdom and become citizens. He didn't die to abolish the laws of His Kingdom.

Think about it: If you believe that Yeshua's death means that you are now "free" from the Torah, then what you are actually saying is that Yeshua's death abolished sin entirely, so that there is no longer any such thing as "sin." If that is the case, then you are as "free" to murder someone as you are to ignore the Sabbath.


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 1:18p).]

No, we have a Law and are not free to murder. Just as the Jews from the time of Moses to the time of Christ were not free to murder. But nor are we free to hate.

The Old Law had to run a physical nation and was meant to impart a full spiritual idea that was not yet fulfilled until Christ. The Old Law is abolished and with it the imperfect spiritual idea because the imperfect was replaced by the Perfect Law of Christ.

Grace and TRUTH came thru Christ.

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The Old Law had to run a physical nation and was meant to impart a full spiritual idea that was not yet fulfilled until Christ.

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That's where you're wrong. The Torah is "Constitution" of the Kingdom of God. It is the laws of His Kingdom.

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The Old Law is abolished and with it the imperfect spiritual idea because the imperfect was replaced by the Perfect Law of Christ.

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Here, you couldn't be more wrong.

You said: "The Old Law is abolished...."

Yeshua said:

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Matthew 5:17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

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Yeshua died in order to take the penalty for breaking His Torah. He didn't die to abolish the very thing that defines what sin is.

How do you know it's a sin to murder? Because it is written in the Torah.

How can you say that the "Old Law" was abolished, when Yeshua quite clearly stated that it was not?


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 2:08p).]

Let us see what GOD has to say about the matter:

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Heb 9:15-18 -- 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

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The Old law was in effect until the death of the testator (Christ). When the death occured the new will or covenant came into effect thus nullifying the old. The old law was nailed to the cross with Jesus Christ.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

77:

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The old law was nailed to the cross with Jesus Christ.

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Wrong. It wasn't the Torah that was nailed to the cross, it was the penalty for transgressing the Torah that was nailed to the cross.

How can you talk about the "New Covenant" when you don't even know what the New Covenant is?

THIS is the New Covenant:

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Jeremiah 31:31-34: "Here, the days are coming," says Adonai, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says Adonai. "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days," says Adonai. "I will put my Torah within them and write in their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know Adonai'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgiven their wickedness and remember their sins no more."

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THAT is the "New Covenant:" I will put my Torah within them and write it on their hearts.

How can sins be forgiven if the very standard that defines sin has been abolished? If the Torah has been abolished, then there is no longer any such thing as "sin."


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 2:40p).]

Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Abraham didn't have the "Law" that Moses was given, yet he had a Law was Abrahams' Law Paul is speaking of here? What "Law" is Issac, Jacob, and Joseph live by?

The Law of Moses was a tutor. Are we still under this tutor Paul is speaking of?

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How can sins be forgiven if the very standard that defines sin has been abolished? If the Torah has been abolished, then there is no longer any such thing as "sin."

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God is the standard, not just the Law of Moses, the Law of God is not FULLY in the Law of Moses. It is in Christ, not merely Christ put with the Law of Moses.

Tell me the LAW Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were under?

AgGermany:

The Torah wasn't established on Mount Sinai -- it was RE-established on Mount Sinai because the Israelites had forgotten it when they were slaves in Egypt.

Abraham lived by the very same Torah as did Moses:

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Genesis 26:5: All this is because Avraham heeded what I said and did what I told him to do -- he followed my mitzvot, my chukkah and my Torah.

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Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 2:50p).]

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Matt 5:27-28 -- 27 " You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

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It is here that Christ goes beyond what the old law teaches, and takes a step further. I would suppose that here the New Testament is "defining" what is sin.

Sins were remembered after that in Jeremiah. Every year there is a remembrance of sins. That is why God said the blood of bulls and goats couldn't take away sins, but the blood of Christ takes away ALL sins for eternity.

Where is the death of a testator to have that supposed "new" law to come in Bracy?


texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 8/29/2003 2:59p).]

AgGermany:

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God is the standard, not just the Law of Moses, the Law of God is not FULLY in the Law of Moses. It is in Christ, not merely Christ put with the Law of Moses.

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You're getting closer, and are almost correct.

The Torah, by itself, is merely letters written on tablets of stone. That is the "Old Covenant" -- the Torah written on tablets of stone.

The "New Covenant" is the Torah written on the tablets of our hearts. That is what Yeshua was teaching in His Sermon on the Mount. He was writing the Torah on our hearts: "You have heard it said... but I say unto you...."


Bracy

77:

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It is here that Christ goes beyond what the old law teaches, and takes a step further.

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Exactly, Yeshua's teachings were *more* strict, not less strict, and certainly didn't abolish the Torah. The Sermon on the Mount was a sermon on how to obey the Torah from the heart rather just obeying the letter of the law.

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I would suppose that here the New Testament is "defining" what is sin.

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No, the "New Testament" doesn't define what is sin. Yeshua, and His apostles, were teaching the Torah.


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 3:01p).]

Abraham never observed a Sabbath nor did he worship thru a Levitical Priesthood or have a tabernacle. This was added in the Law of Moses.

If you are saying God's will/word is Torah then I accept it. You merely apply in incorrectly by pulling Jewish national customs worship practices into Christianity. Just as it would have been wrong for a Jew after the Law of Moses was given to say he is going to worship like Abraham did. (not observe the Sabbath or other jewish holy days for example)

AgGermany:

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Abraham never observed a Sabbath nor did he worship thru a Levitical Priesthood or have a tabernacle. This was added in the Law of Moses.

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Did Abraham sacrifice a goat? Or a pig?

Did Abel sacrifice a lamb? Or a pig?

How do you suppose they knew what was fit for sacrifice?

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Genesis 7:2: Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

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How do you suppose Noah knew what animals were "clean" and "unclean" if the Torah had not yet been established?


Bracy

AgGermany:

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If you are saying God's will/word is Torah then I accept it. You merely apply in incorrectly by pulling Jewish national customs worship practices into Christianity.

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This, I think, is where you are confused. "God's Laws" and "Jewish national customs" are not the same thing. "Jewish national customs" are man-made laws, not God's laws.


Bracy

The New Testament does not teach:

Sabbath Observance
Temple Worship
Sacrificing Animals
Priests -- other than all Christians themselves......

The old testament WAS good, but NOW the New Testament is better.

Let's see what God says:
Heb 8:13 -- 13 When He said, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Heb 8:6-8 -- 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.


texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

Where is Temple Worship now Bracy?
Where is the seperate Levitical priesthood?

Noah knew because God spoke directly to him.
Abraham knew because God spoke directly to him.

Out of Egypt God started speaking thru His prophets that pointed back to the Law of Moses and Forward to the better Law for all peoples as you so well stated from Jeremiah 31.

77:

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Sabbath Observance
Temple Worship
Sacrificing Animals
Priests -- other than all Christians themselves....

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You are wrong on every point you mentioned here. The "New Testament *does* teach Sabbath observance, sacrificing animals, priest, etc.

The apostles continued to observe the sabbath, they continued to offer sacrifices.

AgGermany:

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Where is Temple Worship now Bracy?
Where is the seperate Levitical priesthood?

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The fact that there is no Temple at this time does not negate the laws concerning Temple sacrifice.

The Torah is a loving Father's instruction to His children.

If you teach your children to make their beds and clean their rooms, and then take them on a camping trip for the weekend, does the fact that they can no longer make their beds and clean their rooms while they are away from home somehow "negate" your rules about making their beds and cleaning their rooms? Or are they still expected to make their beds and clean their rooms when they return home?


Bracy

AgGermany:

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Noah knew because God spoke directly to him.
Abraham knew because God spoke directly to him.

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What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

God spoke directly to Adam. God spoke directly to Noah. God spoke directly to Abraham.

And God spoke directly to Moses.

Adam, Noah, and Abraham received the Torah in exactly the same way that Moses did.


Bracy

Bracy,

That's no way to conduct a discussion. You dismissed it without any support. No where will you find the the Apostles teaching a Sabbath observance. In fact Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and Paul says the Sabbath was hung on the cross with Christ( COL 2:14-17).

NOR will you find them teaching temple worship. They went to the temple to find potential converts. WHY??? Because that's where all the Jews were.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 8/29/2003 3:32p).]

Scripture please Bracy.

Show the Apostles were offering animal sacrifices after Christ was raised from the dead.

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What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

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you asked me about Noah and Abraham and the animals they killed, God told them what to do and when to do it. Christ told us what to do and when to do it.

77:

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You dismissed it without any support. No where will you find the the Apostles teaching a Sabbath observance.

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I haven't dismissed anything. I spent over a year in this forum addressing these very same issues. I'm just weary of repeating myself.

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No where will you find the the Apostles teaching a Sabbath observance.

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You couldn't be more wrong, they *did* teach sabbath observance:

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Hebrews 10:25: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

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In fact Jesus healed on the Sabbath, and Paul says the Sabbath was hung on the cross with Christ( COL 2:14-17).

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Healing on the Sabbath is not a violation of the Torah.

God simply said "on the Sabbath, you will do no work." The sabbath is a time to get our minds off of the cares and stresses of this world and spend some time with God and with our families. He didn't specify what is "work," and what is not. The Sabbath is a *gift* to us, and a wonderful gift at that. It is a holiday, just like any other holiday, it just happens to come once a week.

Observance of the Sabbath is a demonstration of our faith in God. It is a time for us to get our minds off of the daily stresses of survival and "getting ahead" and allows us time to enjoy the blessings God has given us.


Bracy

Heb 10:25 -- you couldn't be more right on this matter. However, what is the day of worship as we have from example in the New Testament.

Let's see what the word of God has to say about it:

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Acts 20:7 -- 7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

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That is not the 7th day.

The pharisees seemed to have a problem with it. Also, Paul says it was nailed to the cross with Jesus. Nowhere will you find them practicing a sabbath observance.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 8/29/2003 3:47p).]

77, you know the Sabbath was the MAIN point of Torah Jesus was said to have broken. The main point he was crucified for was claiming to be God's son.

The Sabbath crutch was kicked away or nailed to the Cross and made a spectical of the accusers

Bracy,

Please do those of us who respectfully disagree with your views a favor: don’t tell us we are confused or otherwise wrong just because we don’t agree with what you believe. I think it is assumed that you believe those of us are in error who accept that Christ became the Law Incarnate and, when He died, it of necessity died as well. You have every right to your opinion, as do we, no matter how well or poorly supported by scripture. But, please don’t fan the flames of discord by beginning your post by judging motives or attitudes or by pronouncing shortcomings in a specific poster’s previous response. Thanks.

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Show the Apostles were offering animal sacrifices after Christ was raised from the dead.

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Sure, okay:

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Acts 24:17: 17"After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings. I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance.

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Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

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God told them what to do and when to do it. Christ told us what to do and when to do it.

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Yes, Yeshua did tell us what to do and when to do it. He was repeating the commandments of the Torah.


Bracy

70mAgE2:

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Please do those of us who respectfully disagree with your views a favor: don’t tell us we are confused or otherwise wrong

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Agreed. I meant no disrespect.

When I said "This, I think, is where you are confused," I didn't mean to suggest that he was confused about scripture, but that he was confused about what I was saying. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

I'll try not to say "wrong" and instead say "I respectfully disagree." I know I can be quite blunt on issues which I believe in strongly. Again, I mean no disrespect.


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 4:08p).]

Thank you. And, while we're on the subject of grace, BTHOOASU... gracefully!

77:

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That is not the 7th day.

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Acts 20:7 is referring to Motza'ei-Shabbat. It is a Sabbath observance.

The Jewish day goes from sundown-to-sundown, not from midnight-to-midnight. Motza'ei Shabbat is the evening meal at the end of the Sabbath day.


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 4:20p).]

Acts 24:17 -- This is explaining his whole reason behind going to Jerusalem to give the money that had been collected by the individual gentile churches to the impoverished formerly jewish Christians. Nothing about sabbath here.

He was obviously talking about the first day of the week as he said first day of the week. If he would have meant seventh day he would have said seventh day. Don't distort the scripture as do many other people do (II Peter 3:16).

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 8/29/2003 4:33p).]

77:

Look again. In the verse, he says he went to Jerusalem to present gifts to the poor *AND* to present offerings.

"Present offerings" means to offer sacrifice.


Bracy

How can you be so accomadative to the New Testament? I mean are parts of it right, and parts wrong?

How can you reject Jesus as the Messiah -- Jesus as the Son of God -- Jesus as God, and accept some of the things you are trying to accept?

Just a serious question.

texags77@yahoo.com
Please feel free to respond by email.

77:

quote:

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How can you be so accomadative to the New Testament? I mean are parts of it right, and parts wrong?

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I don't believe that only parts of the New Testament are "right." I believe all of it is "right."

I could ask the same question to you: How can you be so accomodative to the Torah? I mean are parts of it right, and parts wrong?

The same Torah which teaches us that murder is sinful is the same Torah which teaches us to observe the Sabbath. You can't pick and choose which parts of the Torah you will obey and which parts you will not. You either accept all of it, or none of it.

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How can you reject Jesus as the Messiah -- Jesus as the Son of God -- Jesus as God, and accept some of the things you are trying to accept?

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I don't know where you got the idea that I reject Yeshua as Messiah. I most certainly do not. On the contrary, I believe He *is* the Messiah.

However, you are saying, without realizing it, that Yeshua cannot possibly be the Messiah.

Moses instructed the children of Israel that if any prophet or "dreamer of dreams" came along, performing signs and wonders, and yet taught them to abandon the Torah, they were to recognize him as a false Messiah/false prophet [Deuteronomy 13:1-5]. And yet, that is exactly what you are saying Yeshua did. If Yeshua did, in fact, "free us" from the Torah, then He could not possibly be the Messiah.

As such, since I believe that Yeshua *is* the Messiah, I also recognize that He could not possibly have taught us that we are no longer expected to obey it.


Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 8/29/2003 4:55p).]

Bracy,

Romans 6:14-15, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

These two verses from the word of God quite clearly say we are no longer under the law. This does not mean we are free to sin.

Christ did not come to abolish the law as you said, He came to fulfill it, and then died the perfect sacrifice for sin. He did usher in a new covenant. The end of law and the beginning of grace.

II Cor 3:7-9 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Let's face it Bracy, your resistance to the finished work of Christ either means you have never believed and are still under the law, or you have once believed, yet have returned to law observance.

Galatians 3:1-3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: (insert Bracy here) Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? AFter beginning with the Spirit, you are now trying to attain your goal by human effort?