quote:

---

See my responses to Beer above, should explain most of your questions. Right and Wrong is written in everyone's hearts. God knows all and judges us accordingly, he grades us on a curve depending on what has been given to us.

---

Where does scripture say that?

All of the scripture I found says the complete opposite of what you just posted.

To take it even further, some culturally acceptable practices in certain parts of the world (like secluded parts of the Amazon rain forest, or secluded parts of Sub-Saharan Africa) are at odds with the Christian worldview.

How does God grade on a curve if those people have,

a.) never heard of the Christian God

and

b.) Only know what they know (lets use cannibalism as an example).

How are they then graded on a curve let alone saved?

quote:

---

(lets use cannibalism as an example).

---

Bad example when arguing with christians.

Fair enough. Let me clarify. I'm talking the non-communion form of cannibalism.

Is it possible that GOD who decreed the END from the BEGINNING knew that even if "Samir" was named "Trent" and lived in the US and rocked the fluorescent IZOD with the Master of Fine Arts and had a blogging career, he'd still reject his son as the only begotten Savior?

Look at how many people with full access to the gospel, freedom to own as many Bibles as they want, and the right to attend worship still do not get born-again and die in their sin!? So, even if "Samir" was born in the "right" geographic location and had complete and total access to the truth of God, who's to say he'd become a Christian?

What if God knowing this decided to leave him where he is? Revelation 2:6 and Revelation 20:13 tells that the dead will be judged according to their works, so "Samir" will have less condemnation (due to having received less light) than those of you that refuse to repent and believe the gospel, yet still worry about him.

Rather than worrying about if Samir knows if he's in the "game", it doesn’t negate the responsibility of those who have been warned and showed that they ARE in the “game”.

quote:

---

Bad example when arguing with christians.

---

The "Eucharist" is heretical, so it's a "bad example when arguing with christians" because it's irrelevant.

Sockag,

Had both of these in posts to Beer.

1) God Grades us on curve. Well known bible verse, those who are given much, much is expected. This is not shocking, we do this in humankind, we get excited when we see people doing their best, we get frustrated when we see people with great talents squander their gifts. Example: A Great athlete who does not try.


Luke 12: 48-49 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely; and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

2) Right and wrong written on Gentiles hearts who don't know the Jewish Law. Romans 2 13-15 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them

quote:

---

To take it even further, some culturally acceptable practices in certain parts of the world (like secluded parts of the Amazon rain forest, or secluded parts of Sub-Saharan Africa) are at odds with the Christian worldview.

How does God grade on a curve if those people have,

a.) never heard of the Christian God

and

b.) Only know what they know (lets use cannibalism as an example).

How are they then graded on a curve let alone saved?

---

Sockag, to me it is not that difficult to understand. God is all knowing, he knows what is written on a man's hearts, he knows the circumstances of the countless times he has reached into their lives. No different than a parent who knows his children.

CS Lewis also speaks about this in Mere Chrisitanity.

[This message has been edited by booboo91 (edited 5/4/2014 8:06p).]

quote:

---

And if either of those things works, why in the world would you tell people about Jesus and risk them consciously rejecting them by sticking with the religion they're familiar with?

---

There is actually a joke about this very subject. I can't remember it but the punch line is "then why on earth did you tell me?"

quote:

---

Is it possible that GOD who decreed the END from the BEGINNING knew that even if "Samir" was named "Trent" and lived in the US and rocked the fluorescent IZOD with the Master of Fine Arts and had a blogging career, he'd still reject his son as the only begotten Savior?

---

This implies that god already knows the outcome. The game has been decided. In that case you might as well sit back and play your role. See what has already been decided for you. An overwhelmingly large percentage chance that you will go to hell or that pen head size shot at heaven. You have no control. He already knows!

Then the only thing you are good at is spreading terrible news. Those missions are a waste of time. Hey everybody.. Just want to let you know to take Jesus as your savior. Even though it's already been decided because of Gods knowledge.. He already knows what you are going to do. So.. Yeah. I've heard this before from bible followers. It's sad. Premeditated genocide. It makes not one bit of sense. Only a fanatic would bow to this reasoning.

Now here comes a list of scriptures...

quote:

---

The "Eucharist" is heretical, so it's a "bad example when arguing with christians" because it's irrelevant.

---

The Eucharist /ˈjuːkərɪst/, also called Holy Communion, the Lord's Supper, and other names, is a sacrament accepted by almost all Christians.


So...

Amazing,

I believe an all knowing God does know what will happen before it happens. He knows us better than we know ourselves. But he has also given us Choice (free will). To accept or reject him.

I contend the Prodigal Son father, as many fathers would know, knew what was going to happen when his youngest selfish son demanded his inheritence.

God knew what was going to happen to the Jews when they rejected him and demanded a king- they got Saul. He issued them a warning and then gave them what they asked for.

The same will be true with you, he is warning us all the time, but it is our choice. There was God's way and My Way, My Way Sucked. And guess who is to blame for our choice? Answer- Look in the mirror.


[This message has been edited by booboo91 (edited 5/4/2014 9:34p).]

This is such a silly argument - how is it any different than the 'can God create a stone so heavy He can't lift it' shtick? This is what I think of after reading this thread:

Atheist: God is it true that people have to accept Jesus to join you in heaven?
God: Yes.
Atheist: But what about the Bush people in Africa who are born blind and have no brains because they evolved that way?
God: Oh **** I forgot about them!
Atheist: Aha! Gotcha!

You act like a god that claims to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and all loving is incapable of considering something so small. A being that can create the universe, potentially exist in far more dimensions that we can perceive with powers and intelligence beyond our comprehension is incapable of saving some poor guy in Africa or born in a Muslim country. It's silly. It violates the law of non-contradiction (like the aforementioned stone example). He is either the God he claims to be or he isn't. That you get caught up on something like this speaks more to your limitations than his. If you seek to disprove Him at least make an intelligent argument.

They aren't trying to disprove it, they're wondering what happens to those Muslims or pygmies in Africa, something no one has clearly answered other than "God knows already". So what? They go to Heaven because they lived a good life, or hell because they didn't believe in Jesus?

What is it? Some of you say believing in Christ is the only way to get to heaven. Others have said God will judge you according to how you lived, unless you could have know Jesus, in which case if you didn't believe you're condemned, and still others have said God will just judge how you lived period. If it IS being judged by how you lived unless you could have known Christ, then why are Christian missionaries condemning countless people to hell by exposing them to Christ even though the majority of them will still follow the religion of their ancestors JUST LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE?

No poster has directly answered the question of what happens to those with some or no exposure to Christ which is why it keeps being asked.

quote:

---

You act like a god that claims to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and all loving is incapable of considering something so small. A being that can create the universe, potentially exist in far more dimensions that we can perceive with powers and intelligence beyond our comprehension is incapable of saving some poor guy in Africa or born in a Muslim country. It's silly. It violates the law of non-contradiction (like the aforementioned stone example). He is either the God he claims to be or he isn't. That you get caught up on something like this speaks more to your limitations than his. If you seek to disprove Him at least make an intelligent argument.

---

So those pygmies and Muslims don't have to believe and accept Christ as their savior to gain access to heaven?

quote:

---

I believe an all knowing God does know what will happen before it happens. He knows us better than we know ourselves. But he has also given us Choice (free will). To accept or reject him.

---

Once again.. It's already decided. How can there be a free will to change when the future is set? He knows what you will do without intervening. That's designed fate. You follow a religion that is full of contradiction. It's taught you to be afraid to the point of accepting the irrational. When it's staring you in the face. There is no free will within destiny.

After a certain amount of time, Titus 3:10
comes into effect. I believe Christ gave us Mark 16:15 for a reason, so I'll just abide in HIM and let HIM decide to do the saving. Christians are commanded to share the gospel, and thankfully they're not responsible for the results.

I suppose if Christians are "wrong" we haven't lost out on anything, but it you are wrong then the consequences are eternal. Frankly, I don't have enough faith to reject Jesus Christ whenever I have been quickened to HIM and HIS saving grace. I suppose you that do better HOPE you're right.

quote:

---

Once again.. It's already decided. How can there be a free will to change when the future is set? He knows what you will do without intervening. That's designed fate. You follow a religion that is full of contradiction. It's taught you to be afraid to the point of accepting the irrational. When it's staring you in the face. There is no free will within destiny.

---

I agree with comments of Aggiegamecock.

Amazing, to keep it simple think of it this way. Who won the game this year against ATM and LSU? Answer- LSU. Did you do anything to impact the game? Answer- No, the football players on the field determined the outcome. You had no impact. Now pretend just for a moment that God is not bound by time. God knows the outcome, but the players on the field determined the outcome (Free Will).

Now on the other side, you are correct, God makes everything, knows everything, so when he wants certain things done (his will), it will be done. I contend he can stack the deck in his favor. Just look at Joseph in OT to be placed in Egypt or the Story of Jonah.

We can't run away from God, in the end it is really only us and God.

[This message has been edited by booboo91 (edited 5/5/2014 6:56a).]

The answer is irrelevant. God knows and we don't. Its laughable that you think our human logic would ever discover a blind spot for an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God. Again, it violates the law of non-contradiction. Is he not all knowing that he forgot about them? Is he not all loving that he doesn't care about them? Is he not all powerful that he couldn't find a way to reveal himself to them? These are things that you accept when you believe and this is part and parcel of that. You accept not knowing everything but trusting that God does.

If you seek to find fault with this God you will only find it in yourself because nothing is beyond His capability. These objections are like pissing in the wind. No non-theist will start believing in God because they finally receive an acceptable (to them) answer to this question. This thread was started as a troll (reposting buzzfeed).

Aggiegamecock,

I agree, there is no way a human, who lives for short time, with limited intelligence, who sees only things from our relative perspectice can understand God. I love the bible verse from Habakkuk, which repeats what you were saying.

The Prophet Habakkuk is upset that God is not responding, the sinful Jews are being destroyed by the even worse Assyrians. Habakkuk 1 2-3 How long, O LORD? I cry for help but you do not listen! I cry out to you, "Violence!" but you do not intervene. Why do you let me see ruin; why must I look at misery? Destruction and violence are before me; there is strife, and clamorous discord.

And look what God says in response to prophet. Summary- I am God and I know what I am doing. Just wait. It is like the parent telling a child to wait, when the child does not want too. The parent knows and understands the big picture.

Hab 2 2-3 Then the LORD answered me and said: Write down the vision Clearly upon the tablets, so that one can read it readily. For the vision still has its time, presses on to fulfillment, and will not disappoint; If it delays, wait for it, it will surely come, it will not be late.

quote:

---

You act like a god that claims to be omnipotent, omnipresent, and all loving is incapable of considering something so small. A being that can create the universe, potentially exist in far more dimensions that we can perceive with powers and intelligence beyond our comprehension is incapable of saving some poor guy in Africa or born in a Muslim country. It's silly. It violates the law of non-contradiction (like the aforementioned stone example). He is either the God he claims to be or he isn't. That you get caught up on something like this speaks more to your limitations than his. If you seek to disprove Him at least make an intelligent argument.

---

Where did I ever try and disprove your religion? Why do questions that require some analysis make you so angry and uneasy?

quote:

---

Sockag, to me it is not that difficult to understand. God is all knowing, he knows what is written on a man's hearts, he knows the circumstances of the countless times he has reached into their lives. No different than a parent who knows his children.

---

Ok, so if God knows what is written on a man's heart, does that mean a good man that has heard of Christ and doesn't believe in him, but still does good deeds, is saved?

I don't understand this concept:

Hypothetically, you have two humans that are equal in deeds. Both give to charity, volunteer their time, believe/practice the Golden Rule, do no harm to others and generally live a good life according to their cultural standards.

One man has heard of Christ but does not believe it to be true.

The other has never been exposed to Christ.

Going off this thread, Man A will be condemned for eternity and Man B will be saved.

That is where you are losing me.

quote:

---

This implies that god already knows the outcome.

---

How could God not know the outcome when he is described as Omnipotent?

quote:

---

Its laughable that you think our human logic would ever discover a blind spot for an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God. Again, it violates the law of non-contradiction.

---

Nobody it trying to discover a blind spot, people are just asking questions.

Stop being so sensitive.

quote:

---

Is it possible that GOD who decreed the END from the BEGINNING knew that even if "Samir" was named "Trent" and lived in the US and rocked the fluorescent IZOD with the Master of Fine Arts and had a blogging career, he'd still reject his son as the only begotten Savior?

---

Sure it's possible, but this isn't at all what I'm asking about. Through an accident of geography "Trent" in this scenario was born into a place where he actually heard the rules of this game we're supposed to be playing. I'm fine with your religion saying he's going to burn in hell for choosing not to play, or for playing it incorrectly. Samir wasn't even aware this game was occurring, yet he gets the same fate.

Are you saying God placed all the people he knew would reject him regardless of whether they ever heard of Christianity in places where they'd likely never encounter it since they were beyond hope anyway? Is that really the argument you're going with?

quote:

---

Sockag, to me it is not that difficult to understand. God is all knowing, he knows what is written on a man's hearts, he knows the circumstances of the countless times he has reached into their lives. No different than a parent who knows his children.

---

Fine. I get this. The only way your religion is consistent is if it applies this and says, "yes, good person (according to God), who has never heard of Christianity - you get in to Heaven anyway because I know what's on your heart or whatever." Awesome. I'm on board with that. It seems fair and just. My only issue with this, is that evangelizing to people who have never heard of Jesus is going to send a whole bunch of people to Hell for doing nothing more than sticking with the religion they're familiar with. Which is exactly what you would do if Pygmy missionaries came over here to share the good news of Tick Tock the Volcano Empress.

Acts 17 would agree that God placed you, geographically, exactly where you need to be.

Baron,

Thankfully, the burden of proof doesn't lie with me. As Paul said, "For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". That's pretty much my stance as well.

You're the one claiming it. That makes it your burden.

Angry and uneasy? I don't know where you got that. This has devolved into an argument about pygmies. I find that silly. If you reject the qualities of God that Christians believe in your time is better spent elsewhere rather than reiterating something and expecting a different answer.

I am not threatened by your questions, nor are others on here. I think you are asking God to contradict himself with them. You've also deluded yourself into believing that these are tough questions that believers can't cope with. They aren't - I don't walk away struggling with the answers or needing to call a priest or pastor. These questions have been asked for thousands of years and will continue to be well after we're gone. Sorry if it seems harsh but I do not see this thread as a legitimate line of inquiry given it's origins.

quote:

---

The answer is irrelevant. God knows and we don't. Its laughable that you think our human logic would ever discover a blind spot for an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God.

---

That's just the thing, the god you described isn't all powerful and all loving. Your inability to think critically is the problem. You just assume that this god is real. It's not a "blind spot" it's an obvious moral problem with the system described in the bible.

And don't give me that "rock so heavy god can't lift it stuff". You even fail to understand that analogy, as it's to point out that omnipotence is still bound by logic, not a disproof of god.

quote:

---

Again, it violates the law of non-contradiction.

---

Sure, but we know one of these things is true. Most people don't believe in christ. So the logical responses are to switch your positions on the all loving nature of god or the damnation of most of humanity.

quote:

---

Is he not all knowing that he forgot about them? Is he not all loving that he doesn't care about them? Is he not all powerful that he couldn't find a way to reveal himself to them?

---

That's what we are asking. Thus far you nor anyone else has offered a single example of how god reveals himself to them. We know statistically that he does a rather bad job of it.

quote:

---

These are things that you accept when you believe and this is part and parcel of that. You accept not knowing everything but trusting that God does.

---

So have blind faith? What's the virtue in that?

quote:

---

If you seek to find fault with this God you will only find it in yourself because nothing is beyond His capability.

---

That nothing is beyond his capability claim is precisely why so many find fault with the idea.

quote:

---

No non-theist will start believing in God because they finally receive an acceptable (to them) answer to this question.

---

You'd be amazed how many people are apostates because of the concept of hell, and how poorly christians defend it.

quote:

---

You've also deluded yourself into believing that these are tough questions that believers can't cope with.

---

This is very often the case, and not one believer here has offered an intelligent answer.

quote:

---

They aren't - I don't walk away struggling with the answers or needing to call a priest or pastor.

---

I know for a fact this isn't true of a great many christians who struggle with this concept or even lost their faith largely due to it. That your faith is blind doesn't mean that others are.

quote:

---

These questions have been asked for thousands of years and will continue to be well after we're gone

---

Yes they will, which is why it's curious that you take exception to people discussing it, since it's such a pervasive question.

quote:

---

Angry and uneasy? I don't know where you got that. This has devolved into an argument about pygmies. I find that silly. If you reject the qualities of God that Christians believe in your time is better spent elsewhere rather than reiterating something and expecting a different answer.

---

I got that from your responses.

Nobody is argueing, people are asking questions because they don't understand.

I find it silly that you think asking questions=rejecting god. Don't get mad at others because you can't explain your religion well.

quote:

---

I think you are asking God to contradict himself with them. You've also deluded yourself into believing that these are tough questions that believers can't cope with.

---

Im not asking god anything. I'm asking those who follow said god to explain their religion, for example:

quote:

---

Hypothetically, you have two humans that are equal in deeds. Both give to charity, volunteer their time, believe/practice the Golden Rule, do no harm to others and generally live a good life according to their cultural standards.

One man has heard of Christ but does not believe it to be true.

The other has never been exposed to Christ.

Going off this thread, Man A will be condemned for eternity and Man B will be saved.

---

I am looking for an answer to the question.

quote:

---

They aren't - I don't walk away struggling with the answers or needing to call a priest or pastor. These questions have been asked for thousands of years and will continue to be well after we're gone.

---

I am happy for you that you have a complete understanding of your religion and there is nothing about it you question. You should share your wisdom with others so they can be as knowledgable as you are.

quote:

---

Sorry if it seems harsh but I do not see this thread as a legitimate line of inquiry given it's origins.

---

Because I am curious, what would you consider a "legitimate line of inquiry", since you know everything you need to know about your religion and don't struggle with any answers it gives you?

quote:

---

This has devolved into an argument about pygmies. I find that silly.

---

You find it silly that these people are going to burn in hell?

BB - law of non-contradiction was specifically in there for you. Most of my answer was actually for you as you bring this up often. If he possesses all of the biblical qualities I have ascribed (all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing) then being a pygmy in Africa is not a problem. He knows about you, He loves you, and while He is perfectly just He is capable of revealing Himself to you in a way that is acceptable to Him for you to respond, whatever that may be. I can't claim to know what that way is but I do not believe he leaves you to hell simply because you can't get a copy of the New Testament in your language hot off the presses tomorrow. I think of the magi in he bible - I don't recall it saying they were good Jews there to worship the messiah (please correct me if I'm wrong someone).

This does obviously stray into free will/predestination. I am not completely comfortable with either yet though I understand the arguments for both. There are things that challenge me but this is not one of them.

Many believers can't cope with the notion that all of the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and people in remote tribes are damned to hell because they were unlucky enough to not be born in a Christian family. I'm one of them. I believe in God and Jesus, but I still can't understand how a God who preaches love and forgiveness can damn good people to hell for no other reason than having parents who were another religion while Hitler, theoretically, would gain access to Heaven by believing and becoming "born again" or whatever.

I'm happy that you don't have any questions. There are plenty of people who do. And you're inability to answer while simultaneously being dismissive of legitimate questions that you just feel don't deserve a response just continues to push struggling believers away.

quote:

---

but I do not believe he leaves you to hell simply because you can't get a copy of the New Testament in your language hot off the presses tomorrow.

---

Good. But is "being a good person" enough, or does the pygmy have to somehow figure out the whole Jesus sacrifice thing through these vague "revelations?" If it's the former, again, I'm fine with what you're saying (though it's not what others have been saying). But again there's the whole issue of evangelism having the opposite of its desired effect if that's the case.

If it's the latter, again, I can't imagine viewing a God that plays the game that way as being worthy of worship.

Natasha

Read my last post please Natasha. Then see if we still have a quarrel.

Edit for BB: I placed no limitations on their salvation other than what the bible does. If God requires knowledge of Jesus but is incapable of revealing Himself to them in an acceptable manner that they would have a chance to believe then, IMO, He has contradicted Himself. What that looks like though, I have no clue. I must say I do not think you will find an answer of what the looks like anywhere, even if you read the bible many times through studying it. I think men have a history of trying to address such questions on their own (ancestor baptism, indulgences) and have failed to do so adequately. I would rather not start myself.

[This message has been edited by aggiegamecock (edited 5/5/2014 9:56a).]