Priests could be ordered to report confessions of sex abuse to police

3,826 Views | 130 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by 747Ag
jkag89
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quote:
Chilling how many are okay with creating a special "freedom" exclusively for the church so they don't have to report on child abuse.

I guess you haven't heard of the First Amendment. Other than if the information comes through the seal of the confessional, they are not exempt.
boxerLXI
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If a Licensed Professional Counsellor has an ethical and legal obligation to report to the proper authorities people who are a danger to themselves or others...well...a priest is no better than them and I would say less qualified to make such judgements.

If someone tells a priest they molested children, that priest should tell the cops. If he doesn't, then to hell with Catholicism. I'm a defender of a "catholic" church, but Roman Catholicism is sick if the organization feels it is ethically above such actions.

Edit: @Thad, in the United States we may have the first amendment. But we DO NOT have freedom of privacy.

[This message has been edited by boxerLXI (edited 7/20/2012 7:46p).]
Aggrad08
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quote:

For those who support this kind of regulation, I would like to see your two-column list of crimes which priests should and should not be required to report. Please provide comparitive justifications for why you put each crime in its respective column instead of with the crimes in the other column.



Column 1 ...................................Column 2
Are they a danger to themselves or others?
Yes .............................................No.
Report.........................................Don't have to report


[This message has been edited by Aggrad08 (edited 7/20/2012 7:57p).]
tysonbam
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quote:
quote:
Chilling how many are okay with creating a special "freedom" exclusively for the church so they don't have to report on child abuse.

I guess you haven't heard of the First Amendment. Other than if the information comes through the seal of the confessional, they are not exempt.


Freedom of religion isn't a hall pass to do anything.
jkag89
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But you are the one claiming it is a "special" freedom the Church is asking for, I contend it is one based upon the First Amendment.

[This message has been edited by jkag89 (edited 7/20/2012 8:28p).]
tysonbam
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You are asking the freedom of religion to trump the freedom of an individual to not be harmed.

If you set that precedent then priests can molest kids or rape women and call it freedom of religion. In this situation your freedom of religion is trampling on others.
jkag89
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Let me try a different tact with this.

Let us say that in pre-Roe vs. Wade America there was a big uproar in the public to stop abortions. Would you still be so willing to invade the privacy of the confessional? As abhorrent as I find both sexualization of children and abortion, my view on this would stay consistent. Would yours?
tysonbam
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Yes. I abhor abortion
boxerLXI
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@jkag

Your point is moot because we do not have a right to privacy in the US. It's why employers often check the Facebook accounts of prospective employees.

In Europe, that's illegal.
Guadaloop474
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Government - Hands off of the Catholic Sacraments...We do have a wall of separation of church and state in America, according to TJ and the SCOTUS..


Or don't we?
tysonbam
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When your sacraments involve crime you should rethink your religion. Having your view is absolutely disgusting. The only thing worse than being a pedophile is protection pedophiles. Hurrah catholics siding with rapists. It must just be in your nature.
boxerLXI
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I think Thad is willfully misinterpreting the Constitution here. And in a very liberal way, I might add.

The federal government as an entity cannot endorse or outright ban a religious practice or sect. However, if said practice or sect violates the law of the land, then action can be taken. It's why snake handling is illegal and that Mormon sect out in west Texas was raided.

In short, there can be no "official religion" of the United States.
747Ag
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And tyson is willfully misrepresenting the Catholic faith. Somethings never change.
tysonbam
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Yup, Christians never make intelligent arguments....it never changes.
747Ag
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Neither do you. Try it sometime.
tysonbam
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I argued that freedom of religion doesn't provide cover for criminal acts. It doesn't extend to keeping secret knowledge of heinous criminal acts, especially ones that are likely to be ongoing. Your religious freedom doesn't trump a child's freedom from being molested.

Your not really talking about religious freedom. You are talking about placing religion above the law. I fund it heinous that people who pretend to be compassionate care more about their rituals than children.

Jesus despised such people who elevated religious law above common sense.

Luke [14:1] One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched. [2] There in front of him was a man suffering from dropsy. [3] Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in the law, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath or not?" [4] But they remained silent. So taking hold of the man, he healed him and sent him away.

[5] Then he asked them, "If one of you has a son or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull him out?" [6] And they had nothing to say.

Guadaloop474
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I guess there is no "separation of church and state" in America if the government can dictate to the Church how it must conduct its sacraments.

Therefore, it's time to put prayer back in school, along with mandatory bible reading...
747Ag
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Yet your opinion on the matter involves no understanding whatsoever regarding how the confessional works. And you have glibly maintained your ignorance of the subject.

You assume much in your self-righteous pontifications on the subject. Your posts do not deal with anonymity (i.e. behind the screen). Your posts speak nothing about what counsel the priest may give to this hypothetical penitent. Your posts are laced with language assuming these scenarios are quite common, when in fact they are not.

Until you can speak intelligently about how confession works, you will be looked upon as a concerned, yet misguided blowhard.
tysonbam
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If the confession is anonymously done then the priest should report what he does know. I am all for separation of church and state and religious freedom. Problems do arise when religion has a ridiculous rule that protects criminals at the expense of victims. In this case of competing liberties I prefer the liberty of the victim over that of the church to protect a criminal.

If religious nuts wanted to protect their religious freedom to stone sinners I would also object. You guys are putting the church and its religious law above common sense. Just as Jesus made exceptions to work on the Sabbath I don't doubt he would make this exception for confessions.
tysonbam
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And how common these instances are is irrelevant. A bad thing happening rarely doesn't make it a good thing.
NonReg85
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Seriously, are you guys just trolling or are you really this incapable of rational thought>
Texaggie7nine
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Quick question, I haven't seen raised as of yet.

A person goes into a Catholic church confessional and confesses to a priest that he has planted a nuclear device in Las Vegas because he believes the city is a bastion of sin and must be destroyed. He asks for God's forgiveness from the priest for all the innocent lives that will also perish in his act.

Should the priest be legally required to inform the authorities? Should any legal retribution be acted upon him if all he does is try to convince the man to stop the bomb but fails to inform anyone about it, and the bomb does go off killing thousands?

Personally I think each case should be judged separately. I don't think any special new laws should be created, nor should there be any laws that unconditionally protect priests from any legal action if they do not inform authorities of known danger to children or others.

There is no way to cover it all with a law. What of a priest who receives a confession from an 19 year old man that he is in love with a 16 year old female and they are sexually active? Should the priest be legally required to tell the state that technically the boy is committing statutory rape in that particular state? Or should he be allowed to advise the boy to abstain and allow the boy to make his own choices and deal with whatever comes from them?

If a particular case is found of a priest who knew of a molester who was actively molesting children and a known danger to them by the priest, try the priest under existing laws and allow a jury to decide if that particular instance was worthy of legal punishment.

747Ag
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quote:
If the confession is anonymously done then the priest should report what he does know.
Imagine such a scenario... Fr. Mick Dundee is hearing confessions. A man comes in and confesses he's a perv, more-so than Sandusky. Later on, once confessions are done, Fr. Mick calls the police and reports it. "Hello, Boston PD? Yeah, some guy came into my confessional and confessed to being a pedophile."
"What's his name?"
"I dunno."
"Well, what's he look like?"
"I dunno."
"Where did he go?"
"I dunno."
"Why don't you know anything?"
"The confession was anonymous."


You get the picture...

quote:
Problems do arise when religion has a ridiculous rule that protects criminals at the expense of victims. In this case of competing liberties I prefer the liberty of the victim over that of the church to protect a criminal.
You are assuming a lot here. First of all, this sort of thing does not happen in a vacuum. As slick as some predators are, they still leave a trail.

Second, there are requirements that must be met for the confession to be valid from our (Catholic) perspective. Namely, contrition needs to be present in the penitent. However in the case of abusers, they are a sick lot and unlikely able to see their abuse patterns as wrong (i.e. be sorry for the abuse, and determined to not abuse again).

Thirdly, you seem to assume that the sacrament of confession involves no verbal exchange or counsel, such as the abuser must turn himself in to the local civil authorities.

quote:
You guys are putting the church and its religious law above common sense. Just as Jesus made exceptions to work on the Sabbath I don't doubt he would make this exception for confessions.
I believe you are wrong on both accounts. I don't believe you are following the effects of this sort of law all the way through. On the surface, it's said that victims will be helped. But at what cost? Also, what kind of precedent does this set? How do you enforce such law? It's a law that is nearly impossible to enforce, such as the one that set Lawrence v. Texas in motion. Truthfully, I think this sort of legislation is a red herring. Similar laws are on the books in Ireland for abuse, murder and more. Yet, no one has been prosecuted. Rather, it only appears to be symbolic. Rather, we should be focused on what other structures we can put in place both in public life as well as within the Church to protect children.

As far as Jesus' opinion goes, I see a very limited understanding of Catholic theology regarding this sacrament, specifically the priest's role in it all. Each priest realizes he is the ordained mediator of a very sacred and precious sacrament. He knows that in the confessional, the penitent speaks not so much to him, but through him to Jesus.

One final point... I maintain that this is a religious freedom issue. The seal of confession must remain inviolable (i.e. not broken). This is a contract entered into by the fact of the priest agreeing to hear a person’s confession. To mandate the violation of the seal is in effect to prohibit the celebration of the sacrament of confession. Moreover, if the seal were to be broken under some circumstances, it would put people off the sacrament and thereby prevent them from receiving the grace that we believe they need in order to repent and amend their lives. We believe it would also, and far more importantly, obstruct the will of God for sinners to make use of the sacrament of confession and thereby enjoy eternal life. The grace of the sacrament is absolutely necessary for anyone who commits a mortal sin. To mandate the violation of the seal is in effect to prohibit the practice of the Catholic faith (confession needed for forgiveness of mortal/serious sins -> no forgiveness of mortal sins, leads to no reception of the Eucharist and other sacraments). Some have spoken of the seal of confession as being somehow a right or privilege of the priest. Rather, we believe it is a sacred and inviolable duty that the priest must fulfill for the sake of the penitent and for the sake of God's will to redeem sinners.
SigChiDad
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Great post 747. I had all the same thoughts, but didn't have the courage or skill to lay it out for the atheist buzz saw that's taken over this forum.

Are you going to be able to make it to Muenster for Germanfest? If so, I would like to buy you a beer....if you'll have any of those that are available.
Clavell
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http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/07/24/my-take-why-is-ncaa-taking-sex-abuse-more-seriously-than-catholic-church/?hpt=hp_c1
Interesting take. NCAA> > > Catholic Church on issue

quote:
The NCAA acted boldly to send a message to collegiate athletic programs elsewhere in the United States that neither the sex crimes of Sandusky nor the “see no evil, hear no evil” response of Paterno and other Penn State officials will be tolerated.

Still, I wonder whether the message will reverberate even further, perhaps even to the hallowed halls of the Vatican.

I was not raised a Catholic, but in my youth I admired the Roman Catholic Church for taking clear stands on the major moral issues of our time – on abortion and war and poverty and capital punishment. I have watched with both sadness and horror as this venerable institution has squandered the moral capital it accrued over centuries in a misguided and un-Christian attempt to wish away a problem that was staring it in its face for decades.


747Ag
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Clavell, the author of your article would do well to learn when the abuses occurred/peaked in the US as well (from mid 1960's to 1980). It would also help if he understood what the pop-science du jour (that abusers could be be reformed) regarding child sexual abuse was during that period.

Additionally, he could stand a little brushing up on Catholicism in general. The Vatican didn't need to do anything, moreover how would they know? The abuse crisis was a diocesan issue. The bishops and other leadership of various dioceses around the country are responsible for the scandal of the cover-up/shuffle. Really, the Vatican does not have oversight of dioceses in the same way the NCAA does over Penn State.

Lastly, he ought to learn what Catholics must endure (small price to pay, I know) now to volunteer in parish activities. For instance, I must take some sort of class on the nature of sexual abuse, and how to spot potential abusers if I want to volunteer in my son's Cub Scout Pack (on top of what the BSA requires).

In the end, it seems to me both Penn State and dioceses around the nation screwed up big. Now, everyone is putting things in order such that future tragedies are prevented.

I give this article two rotten tomatoes.
747Ag
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quote:
Are you going to be able to make it to Muenster for Germanfest? If so, I would like to buy you a beer....if you'll have any of those that are available.
Now that I live in Waco, trips to Muenster are more frequent. Aging grandparents and all. Still, come April I will almost certainly be in attendance at Germanfest. It's been way too long since I've been. My kids have no idea what it really is, which is a shame. I'd be happy to grab a brew or two with you. I hear the offerings have gotten better since I was a kid.
 
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