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Which OT law-the civil, the ceremonial, or the moral law?

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I wasn't aware they made clear separations between the three? But to answer your question all three are rejected to different extents and in different ways by christians.

Although there is a large amount of overlap if you want to use those classifications.

[This message has been edited by Aggrad08 (edited 2/15/2012 2:56p).]

Well yes, the civil law is exactly what it seems to be the law for the nation of Israel (which no longer exists as a theocracy). The ceremonial law is the law which generally concerns the worship of the nation of Israel when they were a theocracy. The moral law is essentially the ten commandments. The first two civil/ceremonial law has been fulfilled and therefore are obsolete primarily because they concern the governing of the nation of Israel as it existed in the OT. The third while fulfilled in Christ is still in effect and is the standard by which all humanity will be judged.

I don't know if all christian denoms hold to this but this is what I personally believe.

[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 2/15/2012 3:13p).]

Aggrad- the logic I was pointing out was the logical error of thinking that "no evidence found" is the same thing as "evidence to the contrary."

As for morality and muster's post, muster, you don't really believe that. Is torturing and killing a 5 year old kid wrong? Yes. It is. You can't explain it away by saying it's only wrong in some cultures. It is wrong. And you know that it's wrong. We all know it. There's a reason we all know it...

[This message has been edited by watty (edited 2/15/2012 3:19p).]

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The third while fulfilled in Christ is still in effect

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We agree on a lot, but I don't know if I'd agree with that (the "still in effect" part). Since Christ fulfilled it, it is fulfilled. Not that murder is now ok, but we are now held to a higher code. Naturally that higher code in many ways encompasses the ten commandments, so in a way I'm just splitting hairs, but for a matter of consistency, and, in my opinion, accuracy, it would be right to say that ALL of the law was fulfilled and we are no longer bound by it.

Keep up the good work, I always enjoy your posts.

watty,

Yes, I know we differ in this but thanks for the encouragement. I enjoy reading your posts as well...

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Well yes, the civil law is exactly what it seems to be the law for the nation of Israel (which no longer exists as a theocracy)

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Sure a law about what to do if a guy steels your donkey or whatever doesn't apply today. Or any law that demands you have control of the government, like what to do with lepers. But many of these laws are considered moral laws as well. For example, the law against homosexuality. Is that a moral law? Its not in the 10 commandments.

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The ceremonial law is the law which generally concerns the worship of the nation of Israel when they were a theocracy.

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Sure, things like what to do on passover or whatever. Other things are not so easy to separate.

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The moral law is essentially the ten commandments.

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So when christians ignore the law to honor the sabbath day is that not a violation of the moral law?

Are the laws against homosexuality or rape not moral? Are they only civil laws? These distinctions overalap too much in my opinion to consider them separate.

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I don't know if all christian denoms hold to this but this is what I personally believe.

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There are varying opinions. But I think it is very difficult to defend hermeneutically.

The law is always referred to as a whole in the bible. Even in the NT. There are no such distinctions, and the laws themselves are not organized in any such manner.

I give this a read, its written by a christian and suggests a different method without and discusses the flaws in your classification system.

http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_law_hays.html



[This message has been edited by Aggrad08 (edited 2/15/2012 3:39p).]

Aggrad,

I realize that atheists love to play the legalist in regards to christians and what they should believe. Which is funny because they deny the law applies to themselves but love to be so legalistic in the way they believe it should apply to Christians.

That is essentially the problem I have w/you. Well at least one problem. You believe you are free from the law, you aren't. I hope that you will come to an understanding of how the law applies to you and you will seek the One who has fulfilled the law.

Btw, here is something for you to read-

http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_000806.htm

[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 2/15/2012 4:39p).]

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I realize that atheists love to play the legalist in regards to christians and what they should believe. Which is funny because they deny the law applies to themselves but love to be so legalistic in the way they believe it should apply to Christians.

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Well, his point is true that there are a few wack jobs out there who believe that all of the ceremonial and judicial laws are still in place. His problem is that by far the majority of Christians don’t have that belief.

Essentially, he is so weak that he has to frame arguments in just the right way in order to even have a point. He has to take what none of us here believe (outside of some of the messianic jew types perhaps in some sense), in order to make his point. So really he has to be just as dishonest as Hitchens is. Hitchens borrows values from a system he says can’t exist, in order to criticize God, and Aggrad borrows beliefs that Christians say they don’t have in order to criticize Christian beleifs.

How is this not pants on head?

I pointed out NA, the flaws in trying to make that distinction. Its you who are trying to twist things around.

Answer the questions- I used Mrs. Ls own standards.

Is not honoring the sabbath a moral sin? Is rape a moral sin? Is homosexuality a moral sin? I'm not saying that christians have to believe that they have to follow passover rules. But they do think morality is relative.

You are trying to claim you only follow the OT moral law. Well which laws are moral? There is overlap between moral and civil and cerimonial and what not.

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. Which is funny because they deny the law applies to themselves but love to be so legalistic in the way they believe it should apply to Christians.

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I didn't say it should apply to christians. I said christians reject it (as they please). I don't think christians should follow OT law. I just said that they do not.

Aggrad,

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I used Mrs. Ls own standards.

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Nope, Chuck Testa!

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logical error of thinking that "no evidence found" is the same thing as "evidence to the contrary."

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Yes that certianly is illogical to use as a rule. However, there are instances when "no evidence found" is evidence to the contrary. This would apply in the situation where you would expect to find evidence if something happened and have looked for that evidence.

But in the case for moses and the exodus, there is more than just an absence of evidence. There is evidence for the rise of the hebrews out of canaan, rather than simply a lack of evidence for their supposed migration. So he isn't committing a logical fallacy.

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Nope, Chuck Testa!

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How do you figure. You said the moral law was the ten commandments. Then answer the question. Is the law against rape a moral law? The law against homosexuality? The law about the sabbath?

Aggrad,

To assume that there is no morality in laws is silly. I have never made such a statement nor have I implied any such thing.

You seem to assume that because the civil/ceremonial law might have some moral component they should be not be excluded from the moral law. That is wrong headed because the purpose of those laws were very specific to a certain time and purpose.

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Morality is just the relative laws of a society/individual. Which one you choose to prioritize defines you. No need to make up a supernatural deity father figure to explain morals.

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Thanks for absolutely proving my point, muster.

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Christians scoffing at relativistic morals is extra funny considering the large number of them that reject OT law.

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You are seriously showing your ignorance of the issue here. Whether Christians are consistent or not has zero bearing on the existence or nonexistence of moral truth. The greater irony is that Christian theology is very clear to point out that all fall short of moral perfection. So pointing out the failures (perceived or otherwise) of Christians is also quite unimpressive.

As a result, your statement is effectively a non sequitur.

[This message has been edited by Nixter (edited 2/15/2012 6:27p).]

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To assume that there is no morality in laws is silly. I have never made such a statement nor have I implied any such thing.

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What you have done, is made a distinction between laws in the old testament that the OT never makes. Its effectively up to you what is moral and what isn't.

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You seem to assume that because the civil/ceremonial law might have some moral component they should be not be excluded from the moral law. That is wrong headed because the purpose of those laws were very specific to a certain time and purpose.

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You tell me. I don't care whether you exclude them-I am asking whether they are moral. If the civil laws are have a moral component I don't see how you make that distinction. It seems completely arbitrary. You are basically picking and choosing which OT laws you want to follow based on how you feel like classifying them. There is no clear distinction between what is civil and what is moral. You are the arbitrator of that decision since the OT makes such separation.

If you actually think the 10 commandments are the only laws in the OT that are "moral" laws, and the only ones that need by followed, tell me whether or not its a sin to not honor the sabbath?

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You are seriously showing your ignorance of the issue here. Whether Christians are consistent or not has zero bearing on the existence or nonexistence of moral truth

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No. I'm not talking about what christians do I'm talking about christian belief about morality. Of course christians sin, that doesn't eliminate the standard. What I'm saying is that christians have changed the moral standard. If there is an absolute moral truth than its true always. But if it is no longer a sin to fail to honor the sabbath I don't see how that is an absolute truth.

I’ll answer you since she is working out right now… Then it will be my turn..

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What you have done, is made a distinction between laws in the old testament that the OT never makes. Its effectively up to you what is moral and what isn't.

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Sure it does. God told them that those decrees were for them. Go look at Deuteronomy. It was not for all time, it was to that nation, that people of Israel, and especially as He was their Theocratic head.

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I don't care whether you exclude them-I am asking whether they are moral. If the civil laws are have a moral component I don't see how you make that distinction.

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Well, even you recognize a difference in “you shall not murder”, and “don’t eat shellfish”, otherwise you would not point them out the way you do. Most laws have some kind of moral component to them, even civil laws, but God set those 10 out separately, and They are even discussed in the NT, given their fullest context by Jesus, and even summarized, the first 5 being Love God , the second 5, Love your neighbor.

To be blunt, either you are going to approach it as a scholar or a hack.

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It seems completely arbitrary

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Well, complex math might seem arbitrary to a child. A surface level look at something with a bad attitude, will give people all kinds of ideas about how it seems…

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If you actually think the 10 commandments are the only laws in the OT that are "moral" laws, and the only ones that need by followed, tell me whether or not its a sin to not honor the sabbath?

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Yes, it is a sin not to… It’s part of the thanklessness that the Romans 1 person exudes. If you will look at the Sermon on the mount, Jesus actually expands the commandments greatly to a matter of the heart.

One thing I would recommend to you is this.

You are not helping yourself. When you gain more knowledge about these things, you just heap up wrath against yourself, because your will is against God, and against His truth, and so every thing you learn is just more information for you to misuse, and twist.

I’m just telling you this, because it’s better for you to remain ignorant. If your purposes are not good, you will arrive at no good.

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Atheists should thank christians for providing them a foundation on which they can build their meaningless lives. Not to mention the purpose they get from arguing against christian beliefs, I mean if it weren't for christians and their beliefs what would they have to save the world from?!

[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 2/15/2012 1:53p).]

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All the other crazy theists out there, like Muslims.

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Sure it does. God told them that those decrees were for them. Go look at Deuteronomy. It was not for all time, it was to that nation, that people of Israel, and especially as He was their Theocratic head.

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How were the ten commandments any different? Those laws were for them. They were part of the covenant. God wouldn't give a crap about gentiles for a long time to come. God gives moses lots of commands starting in exodus 20, and then some more in 21 on and on (mostly talking about stupid alters and arks and what not that I'm surprised a deity would care about) until 31. In 31 he says " When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

In fact, what are called the 10 commandments today are actually not the words that god rewrote down on stone after moses got a temper tantrum and smashed the originals.

"The LORD said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain.”

4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”

8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 “Lord,” he said, “if I have found favor in your eyes, then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”

10 Then the LORD said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a] 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

15 “Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

17 “Do not make any idols.

18 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Aviv, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

19 “The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

“No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

21 “Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

22 “Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year. 23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

25 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

26 “Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.

“Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.”

27 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments"

Its called the Ritual Decalogue now.

in deuteronomy 5 it goes back and says the exodus 20 commandments are the 10 commandments.

Hebrews 9 confirms that what is written on the stone tablets is the covenant. Whichever set you want to say is on the tablets. Tradition seems to prefer the former. Which makes those laws part of the covenant.

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Well, even you recognize a difference in “you shall not murder”, and “don’t eat shellfish”, otherwise you would not point them out the way you do.

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Sure, but I don't see that same obvious distinction in don't rape. Or don't commit homosexual acts. There are times when its obvious like the one you selected and times when its a matter of discretion. And as I pointed out, with that link, its hardly a uniform christian opinion that there is such a distinction between OT law. When there is a moral component to a civil law (which isn't easy to determine as there of course is no clear distinction made) who are you to say that isn't moral? If there is a moral component to a law how can you say that it doesn't apply? Does gods morality change?

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Most laws have some kind of moral component to them, even civil laws, but God set those 10 out separately, and They are even discussed in the NT, given their fullest context by Jesus, and even summarized, the first 5 being Love God , the second 5, Love your neighbor.

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But jesus spoke also spoke of the law, in total. He never spoke of the moral law, or the ceremonial law. He summarized the 10 commandments. However all 613 are included in the covenant.

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To be blunt, either you are going to approach it as a scholar or a hack.

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To be blunt. Your worldview is centered around the thought that your interpretation of the bible is the only correct view. The views on how christians view OT law isn't separated into scholar non-scholar but by sect. This is one area where Calvinist and catholics agree (aquinas came up with your views). However, plenty of christians see all 613 laws as the old covenant and only feel bound to follow the teachings of jesus.

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Yes, it is a sin not to… It’s part of the thanklessness that the Romans 1 person exudes. If you will look at the Sermon on the mount, Jesus actually expands the commandments greatly to a matter of the heart.

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So you don't do anything on friday night to saturday night?

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I’m just telling you this, because it’s better for you to remain ignorant. If your purposes are not good, you will arrive at no good.

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NA its better for you to remain ignorant. For if you actually learned about the science that contradicts your YEC beliefs your worldview may fall apart. And we all know what a terrible person you claim you'll be without god.

Aggrad,

I believe most laws have a basis in morality. I think that the civil laws morality came from the moral law (10 commandments). As a matter of fact, most all laws come from the moral law it is a matter of not harming others.

Regardless, all of this rabbit trail you've gotten us off on doesn't change the fact that the ideas of "evil" are borrowed from a christian worldview. Because atheist's own views don't really allow for an objective moral framework they have to lean on the moral law to provide them w/an objective moral framework from which they then use to criticize the God they don't believe exists.

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Your worldview is centered around the thought that your interpretation of the bible is the only correct view. The views on how christians view OT law isn't separated into scholar non-scholar but by sect.

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It's kind of silly to expect Notafraid or me to defend views we don't hold to. Certainly, I acknowledge there are varying views on what constitutes the law and which are still in effect but I'm not going to defend view I don't hold and it's silly to expect anyone to do that. It would be akin to me expecting you to defend christianity...can you imagine?!

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Because atheist's own views don't really allow for an objective moral framework

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But neither does yours! You are unwilling to accept/acknowledge that this sacred objective morality you cling to is anything but objective.

Mac,

You can deny that this very law is the thing by which you are being judged and will be judged but that doesn't change the inevitability of it. And in case you are in doubt, you don't measure up, no one does based on his/her own merits.

But that's a discussion for another day, although I do want to put that out there to let you know the Good News is held out for you. So let me say that your post doesn't really provide a means of arguing against because all you've done is say "uh-uh". I can come back and say "uh-huh" but that's just silly. Sorry you have silly arguments but they do work to shut down dialogue and I guess if that's your ultimate game then you win.

[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 2/16/2012 10:30a).]

I am always put off by how certain atheists here on Texags tell Christians how they should read the Bible. It's almost always the worst and most dishonest interpretation possible as well, and it is completely forced and unnecessary. A mature and responsible person would look at it, and perhaps try and see why we don't have to interpret the Bible that way.

What's ironical to me, is that christians also have immature and irresponsible Bible interpreters, who simply refuse to read the Bible a different way than the one that they believe is true. We call them fundamentalists. The atheists here tend to read the Bible much like a fundamentalist would, which puts them pretty far out there on on the "irony scale." Hence the phrase, "atheist fundamentalist."

[This message has been edited by Cyprian (edited 2/16/2012 10:32a).]

Cyprian,

Well since you're here why don't you jump in and offer up your own defense of Christianity? Or do you just want to critique others?

Hey! I've got an even better idea! Why don't you argue the point of the atheist?! Yah, that's what you should do...

[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 2/16/2012 10:45a).]

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Why don't you argue the point of the atheist?!

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[in character] "Atheism is false" [/in character]

That was easy. Any other requests while I'm at it?

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Regardless, all of this rabbit trail you've gotten us off on doesn't change the fact that the ideas of "evil" are borrowed from a christian worldview

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The idea of good and evil predates christianity. I don't know what you are talking about.

Aggrad,

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The idea of good and evil predates christianity. I don't know what you are talking about.

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In the society we live in today, christian morality is the dominant view although you're right I should add Judaical views along w/christian.

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In the society we live in today, christian morality is the dominant view

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Yes me and you in america, it's a big world out there. There are other dominant religions for other areas.

That christian morality is dominant doesn't mean people in that society who are not christians simply borrow christian morality. In fact, our society as a whole is starting to adjust and trend toward some traditionally non-christian values and morals. There is a huge overlap in morality among most any moral system or religion or whatever else. That commonality doesn't mean someone is going through the bible and saying "this good, this bad, this good, this bad etc", Or "I like the rules lets just lose that god fellow."

Aggrad,

Well when societal norms are based on judeo/christian values as a foundation, atheists absolutely build upon this as their cultural basis. And I am of course, referring to western culture when I say society.

Frankly, I'm glad that they take on these values and appeal to them but to then use them as a club w/which to defeat Christian ideas is well I'll just say it's misguided at best.

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Well when societal norms are based on judeo/christian values as a foundation, atheists absolutely build upon this as their cultural basis. And I am of course, referring to western culture when I say society.

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The influence in the culture doesn't dictate your morality. It can influence it, but the parts of christian morality atheists adhere to are pretty universal that's my point. Christian attitudes toward gays for instance are not adopted at all. Its not because non-christians go through the bible and pick and choose, its simply a point we disagree on. Religion is one of man's ealiest attempts at science and at philosphy. And while they got a whole lot wrong, religions did get some things right, but in their own context. For instance-do not murder. Now, just because the original attempts used a deity or two to imply the necessity of that rule doesn't make it a bad rule. Some christian ideas of morality just like muslim ones or buddist ones, are good. Why should atheist reject those? Some others are trapped thousands of years in the past and make little sense today. Why should atheist keep those?

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Frankly, I'm glad that they take on these values and appeal to them but to then use them as a club w/which to defeat Christian ideas is well I'll just say it's misguided at best.

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First, christians should follow their own rules, especially the fundies who want their rules in government. Second, the theists were trying to make the "you cannot possibly have morals if you are an atheist since god didn't tell you what to do" nonsense.

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Any other requests while I'm at it?

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Yes. I'll have one of these, please.



___________________________________________________________________________________
From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world.

The church is near, but the road is icy; the tavern is far, and I will walk carefully.

It's hubris to think we can prove the Bible wrong. It's hubris to think we can prove it right. Nobody has been able to do either for more than a thousand years. What makes us so special to think we could do one or the other?

Any supposed contradiction must have passed the eyes of countless monks and scholars. Any supposed proof must have failed to fall on the ears of innumerable atheists.

The Bible makes testable and falsifiable claims like: origins of species, language origin, prayer, and archeology. All of which have been shown to be wrong. Your claim that the bible is not proven wrong is very incorrect.