giving away cars for mothers day and a free dinner at texas de brazil for fathers day? really, do they want the numbers that badly? curious on those peoples thoughts who might go to that church

Do they really do that?

These gimmicks are not for the regular attenders, and they do cause some frustration for parents who have to convince their children that the purpose of church isn't door prizes.

However, speaking for Woodlands Church, 2nd Baptist, or maybe some other "mega" that doesn't dilute the gospel, I'll share something I learned from talking to some of the pastors. Here it is:

We have to remember just how far we were from God before he called us. When we do this, we think about the barriers that existed between us and God. The last thing we want to do is make the church itself a barrier between man and God. When Jesus died, the veil was torn, and the church should not try to mend it. Therefore, we should make all people comfortable when they visit our church, but then spare no punches as we confront them with their sin and their need for a Lord and Savior.

Yes, it is a gimmick. Yes, it is bait. But if I had showed up for an i-phone drawing and met Christ instead, I would not hold it against the church.

My church was packed yesterday as we had a car show in the parking lot and free lunch ( "hot rods and hot dogs" ).

The pastor's sermon, though, was not Bible-lite. It was about how hall of fame fathers life live focused on God.

I thought the hot rods and hot dogs thing was fun, and if it attracted a few folks who would be otherwise reluctant to come to church, well then all the better.

So long as such things don't distract from the message, I have no problem.

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Therefore, we should make all people comfortable when they visit our church, but then spare no punches as we confront them with their sin and their need for a Lord and Savior.

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I've been to Fellowship Church a few times. This is the part that is missing.

"The society that puts equality before freedom will end up with neither. The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with a good measure of both." -Milton Friedman

What happened to, "come to church or burn in hell?"

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I've been to Fellowship Church a few times. This is the part that is missing.

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Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I can put up with a lot of stylistic and gimmicky stuff as long as the church is preaching about sin. Shook, Groeschel, Driscoll, Young (Sr.),and Hybels seem to do a good job of this.

Can't even imagine what it would be like to be the pastor in such a huge church...

i'm still waiting for the "come to church & win a keg of beer"..... anyone know one of those?

There are two things I see going on these days. One type of church is a dead church, because they don’t preach the gospel. They preach love, and stuff like that, but they often believe in a universal atonement, and that God is going to save people whatever they believe. In any case, they don’t believe it’s their business or any one else’s business what someone believes about Christ. There is typically a focus on unity. These types of churches typically have a declining membership, because where there is no need for a savior, what’s the point?…

The next movement is a kind of “man is the sovereign” movement. There is typically an idea of a universal atonement, but they believe that man needs to make a decision for Jesus. The focus is on getting man to make that decision. The focus is therefore on “what can we do to get people in”? So they make the church entertaining, and exciting, with lots of social stuff to offer. The members wind up with their part in worship being more of an audience experience.

Cont'd from Notafraid's analysis...

The third movement is the 'we do nothing' church where people just sit in the pews hearing nothing preached except heavy emphasis on God's eternal decrees. They hear preaching about how God elects some and damns others and there is nothing we do that affects any of that. Of course, everybody who believes that also believes that they are elect. There are never any people who believe in a hyper view of God's eternal decrees without free will that also believe that they are not among the elect. In those church's calls to works of love, faith and charity are never preached even though the every other page of the gospels is about performing works of faith, love and charity.*

The fourth movement is Catholicism which is awesome.

*I am being somewhat sarcastic here...just trying to illustrate that caracteritures are probably not the best way to discuss these things

Having said that...there needs to be a line with gimmicks.

Should a church put on a strip club show on a Sunday morning in order to get lustaholics in the door?

should the church serve free donuts in the morning to get the gluttons in the door?

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should the church serve free donuts in the morning to get the gluttons in the door?

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Don't know if you are being serious but the point of donughts and coffee is to foster fellowship I think.

Yesterday I caught my 2 year old taking one bite out of each donut and placing it back in the box.

should the church serve free donuts in the morning to get the gluttons in the door?
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Of course, trans-fat and cholestral are great icebreakers.

There is another movement.

It encourages seekers to be become believers and encourages believers to become disciples, so changed by God that they act to change the world. They unashamedly preach the gospel, with depth and commitment. They reach out into their communities and help those in need. They practice grace and pursue righteousness. They also have video screens so that they can use visual aids to teach The Bible and keep a varied list of lyrics. They play music that appeals to modern ears and yet brings a timeless message of praise for the true and living God.

Some don't like this movement, but I have never heard a valid criticism of it.

Another one...similar to Fightin Texas Aggie but superior....

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It encourages seekers to be become believers and encourages believers to become disciples, so changed by God that they act to change the world. They unashamedly preach the gospel, with depth and commitment. They reach out into their communities and help those in need. They practice grace and pursue righteousness. They also have video screens so that they can use visual aids to teach The Bible and keep a varied list of lyrics which are performed by soft spoken under 30 yr old guys with frosted hair and tribal band tatoos. They play music that appeals to modern ears and yet brings a timeless message of praise for the true and living God.

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Huh....

Well, seamaster obviously hasn't been to my church. One of my best friends and mentors led worship there for years, but he recently died of cancer. He was an amazing 50 year old bald guy, a little bit overweight and who still betrayed his Lake Whitney upbringing. He quietly and consistently served the poor. He touched thousands of lives. He was a mentor not just to me but to untold numbers of Christ followers.

He was neither frosted nor trendy, but if he had been, I cannot imagine how it would have changed my opinion of him. Nor would it have changed God's impact on the world through my friend.

To learn more about my friend, click here:

http://www.walkit.org/

[This message has been edited by Fightin TX Aggie (edited 6/21/2010 2:22p).]

I was just joking FTA...I think we all know that there is a sterotype of a mega-church 'worship pastor.'

Sorry to hear about your friend.

so bizarrely different than my church experience.

It's interesting what passes for True Christianity these days.

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It's interesting what passes for True Christianity these days

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I know...

Like secret handshakes, secret words, masonic ritual and proxy baptisms....

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The third movement is the 'we do nothing' church where people just sit in the pews hearing nothing preached except heavy emphasis on God's eternal decrees. They hear preaching about how God elects some and damns others and there is nothing we do that affects any of that. Of course, everybody who believes that also believes that they are elect. There are never any people who believe in a hyper view of God's eternal decrees without free will that also believe that they are not among the elect. In those church's calls to works of love, faith and charity are never preached even though the every other page of the gospels is about performing works of faith, love and charity.*

The fourth movement is Catholicism which is awesome.

*I am being somewhat sarcastic here...just trying to illustrate that caracteritures are probably not the best way to discuss these things

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Well you would have had a point except for the fact that what I stated were not caricatures, but are real definable, observable phenomenon going on in churches today. It is very helpful to point to truth, facts and things like that and discuss them, so I really don’t see why you felt compelled to post something like that. Well, I think I do know, but I am trying to think better of you...

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 6/21/2010 5:37p).]

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However, speaking for Woodlands Church … that doesn't dilute the gospel

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Is this the Kerry Shook guy? You cannot be serious about this.

Well, at least they are not selling indulgences.

I go to fellowship church and yes they do have gimmicks to get people in. But to say they don't talk about sin or anything convicting in the bible is not correct. They do it every week. I've gone to a number of churches before I went to fellowship and I've never heard a speaker as convicting and (not guilting) as Ed Young is. In fact I barely even financially gave to a church before I listened to how he explained the concept of giving.

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Is this the Kerry Shook guy? You cannot be serious about this.

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I'm very serious about this. Woodlands Church is a serious Bible believing, gospel-driven, sin-preaching church. You would do well to hold your criticism in check, but I suspect you will not.

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Well you would have had a point except for the fact that what I stated were not caricatures, but are real definable, observable phenomenon going on in churches today.

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Thank you for showing me how to spell 'caricatures.'

I think your observations are a little skewed in that you are emphasizing the worst (or what you think is the worst) and ignoring the rest.

Kind of like justification for example. If I say, "faith alone is not an accurate description of justification" I have a feeling that you would only think, "This must mean that Seamaster thinks we are justified by works!" But that isn't it.

So, when you see a church that talks about human responsibility in the call to gospel...all you see is a rejection of sovereignty and thus a rejection of the gospel...even though that is not the case.

Seamaster,

In keeping with the thread, it was about churches that use gimmicks. I described two specific phenomenon going on today. One is a type of liberal Protestantism, and another was a type of neo-finneyism that also comes out of an evangelical tradition, so in terms of glorifying Roman Catholicism, and slamming Protestantism my post should have made you very happy, so I don’t get your reasoning.

Notafraid.

I simply don't see the churches that you described. Notice how you painted both extremes as being the way they are because of their rejection of Calvinism. Thats all I am saying.

Fellowship or Woodlands or any other mega church does not use 'gimmicks' because they aren't Calvinist.

It is kind of like somebody saying, "Calvinists don't have a big emphasis on missionaries because they believe that its all about God's eternal decrees so why bother witnessing."

Its not a fair assessment.

Whatever dude. Just because you don't "see something" in your little world doesn't mean that something doesn't exist. I suppose you won't be happy till I'm not posting around here, or in some sort of argument with you or something. Either way you will probably get what you want if you keep being such a tool.

Notafraid.

Name calling?

You made some generalizations in this thread that don't stand up. Thats all.

If you don't like having your presuppositions and conclusions questioned than you shouldn't post in a public forum.

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The next movement is a kind of “man is the sovereign” movement. There is typically an idea of a universal atonement, but they believe that man needs to make a decision for Jesus. The focus is on getting man to make that decision. The focus is therefore on “what can we do to get people in”? So they make the church entertaining, and exciting, with lots of social stuff to offer. The members wind up with their part in worship being more of an audience experience.

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I can back up Notafraid on this one. We were going around sharing testimonies in our small group and it's scary how many of us in the 80's and 90's sat through church productions that were literally designed to scare kids into making a decision to follow Christ by showing them graphic images of suffering in Hell. Of course if you scare an impressionable kid by saying you need to choose heaven or hell, they are going to choose heaven and will pray whatever prayer you tell them to. You'll have impressive baptism numbers, but that's not exactly the Holy Spirit unvieling the beauty of the gospel and giving you a heart that is filled with humility, love and gratitude...

Today I see a lot of churches that seem like businesses catering to high-end customers. Obviously I can't judge their heart when they make decisions to spend all kinds of money on having their members and guest as comfortable as if they were at a 5-star restaurant (OK, maybe that was a tad judgemental), but I am concerned that there is a trend in American evangelicalism to think more about how to grow church numbers than how to glorify God and teach the gospel clearly and boldly. That may be over-spending on amenities, or it may be not saying something that might need to be said for fear of losing attendees.

Also - do we really have to call people tools because we don't agree with them?

Orbit,

I didn't call him that just because he didn't agree with me, but you are right that I should let the Lord deal with him.

Seamaster,

Sorry that I called you a tool. I am going to ingore you now though, ebcause I don't feel that anything rewarding comes when I converse with you.

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I'm very serious about this. Woodlands Church is a serious Bible believing, gospel-driven, sin-preaching church. You would do well to hold your criticism in check, but I suspect you will not.

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I have been there numerous times over many years and respectfully disagree with your opinion. But that is just my opinion.

ALL Churches that do not have the Eucharist and Apostolic Succession (meaning all non-Catholic and Orthodox churches) will at some point devolve to the point of wallowing in gimicks of some sort (and, BTW, Catholics have a history here as well, but that's mostly gone now, thank God).

There must be a Center that holds, and this must be the Eucharist. This is the whole purpose of worship.

really?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh_nqtp3VrU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45VazNU_pOA&feature=related