quote:Just as there is substantial documentation indicate the lack of character and ethics that existed in Joseph Smith Jr.
You should realize Petro, that there is substantial documentation that exists to verify the character and reputation of the Book of Mormon witnesses.
quote:That in NO way is an indication of good behavior but instead simply a sign of either gullibility or much worse!
(1) they all joined the Church Joseph founded;
quote:Because of their greed and desire to become Gods in Heaven or because of their desire to gain power here on Earth.
(2) they devoted substantial time and material resources to building up a new and unpopular religious organization;
quote:Exactly. It wasn't good character that drove them but rather this quest for power.
(3) they became early leaders of the Church;
quote:Resulting from the poor leadership and business dealings of their leader. Again Diamond, they may have suffered some short term financial penalties due to Smith's bank fraud, his failed commune, etc. but that doesn't mean that the power itself didn't continue to be a key driver.
(4) they ALL experienced substantial financial loss that they accumulated from Church participation, frequent moves, and bitter persecution;
quote:Which is why they eventually moved to Utah so that they could retain their power and avoid that criticism.
(5) they were subjected to slanderous criticism and social ostracism;
quote:Yeap. Smith false religion created a firestorm that unfortunately led to violence against some who both opposed Smith and those who supported him.
(6) some were subjected to mob violence, including the prophet's brother, Hyrum, who suffered martyrdom with him at Carthage jail;
quote:Indicating that for at least some of them, they eventually became disgusted with Smith and his claims and, even if they felt unsafe to actually denounce him, were certainly not willing to continue to stand by him!
(7) many of the witnesses became personally disaffected from the prophet, including each of the three witnesses, who, for various offenses were excommunicated
quote:Which sure tells us something about what ACTUALLY went on during these 'translation' sessions versus what is claimed by the Mormons.
You might also notice they were both Joseph's scribes
quote:Again, when one has mislead others throughout life, either intentionally or unintentionally, it takes true courage to admit such to others. Those three apparently didn't have such courage.
(8) each of the three witnesses reconfirmed their testimonies just prior to death.
quote:Wrong in all respects Diamond. These were the most biased of all and as a result, their testimony is no more valid than would be the testimony of those who would sing the virtues of David Koresh, Sun Myung Moon, L. Ron Hubbard, etc.
If you are honest Petro, these Book of Mormon witnesses would not only serve as reliable notaries, they could bear up under the most stringent requirements of the law as material witnesses in any civilized court on earth!
quote:And such testimony will be just as insignificant and irrelevant as the claims of Harris. What you absolutely fail to realize or accept Diamond is that you can't prove the validity of a religion by pasting the claims of the fanatics of that religion. But then I suppose that since this is all that you have left, everything else being refuted, you really have no choice do you?
I will cover the remaining two witnesses of the three after Mother's day. Then the remaining 8 witnesses
quote:And sometimes pride and ego prevent people from admitting that they have been fooled. ESPECIALLY after 14 years of being fooled.
Petro, I agree that people of good character can be fooled initially
quote:Your second sentence obviously is a good explanation for the first. But let's also keep in mind that with the plates for example, Smith only allowed them to look at a small portion, claiming that the rest was 'sealed'. While it is indeed possibile that they were in on the fraud from the start, it also is possible that they simply fell for the counterfeit plates that Smith had created.
They were not "gullible" when they saw the angel and the plates. Now they too could have been in on the "fraud", if that is what it was.
quote:Not at all. We already have seen that Smith was killed after destroying the printing presses. The threat of violence that could have occured if those co-conspirators admitted their role in Smith's charade would certainly have been great. Plus there would have also been the threats of economic and/or criminal penalties if they had admitted anything.
the three most significant testators were kicked out, as well as any of the other 8, and none of them did not turn on the leader of the fraud. The numbers are too great.
quote:Again we have seen that this most certainly wasn't the case. As discussed below, the Danites certainly proved otherwise!
The Church was so young and small they would have endured no real threats to their lives.
quote:I bet Moonies say the same thing about some of the speeches that Sun Myung Moon gives as well.
The address occupied three and a half hours in delivery, and the multitude was held spellbound by its power. The Prophet seemed to rise above the world. It was as if the light of heaven encircled his physical being"!
quote:You can claim that power was not an objective of your early leaders but the evidence quickly proves you wrong. Smith and the others were ALL about the power. That is why he wanted to establish a theocratic government, it is why he felt the right to destroy the presses of those who opposed him, it is why he chose to take on numerous wives, it basically was the driver behind every one of his actions.
And since Church positions and calling center around service to the members, power was no object, any more than anyone who supposedly chooses to go into the ministry for the right reason
quote:Nah. Simply more ignoring the facts on your part Diamond.
Sorry Petro, more empty and erroneous conclusions on your part!
quote:Wrong. There was much more to be lost than to be gained for them to ever admit that they had been active participants in such a con game.
all they would have had to do was to offer to come clean for a price and give the "scoop" of a decade, or write a best selling book as to how the fraud was planned executed!
quote:No. It was their loyalty and support of Smith's positions that ensured them ongoing power.
But, it was their good character and competence that qualified them for leadership positions.
quote:Of course it did although the Kirtland bank fraud certainly didn't help. But unfortunately Smith's various failures and constant fleeing from the law DID cost others in the short term. But in exchange many of them got the increased power, the multiple wives to sleep with, etc.
Their losses stemmed from much more than the failure of the bank at Kirtland.
quote:Nope. I understand exactly how it works and that is why it makes sense as to why so many people could be so easily fooled by Smith and his claims.
Sorry Petro, another weak and misguided conclusion on your part that denies how human nature really works!
quote:You are wrong yet again Diamond. Let's look at those two Witnesses and the power and reasons that prevented them from recanting:
Only two of the Three Witnesses moved to Utah and that was years later. They were rebaptized but held no Church position of leadership or power, so there was absolutely no temporal advantage to them at all.
quote:Yes Diamond we all know that there were plenty of people who eventually recognized Smith for what he was and rejected him.
Those who became disaffected with the prophet over various doctrines, of which plural marriage was just one, had no problem denouncing Joseph.
quote:Temptations and power are tough to reject. There are plenty of lapsed Christians as well Diamond.
It is interesting that some who knowing signed their names to documents of lies because they felt Joseph was a "fallen" Prophet begged Joseph for forgiveness and came back.
quote:And WHO tells us that this occurred??? What a surprise that such a claim was made by Smith’s followers….
And to think that Hyrum and Joseph in Carthage Jail and knowing they were about to be killed and stand before God, Hyrum read passages from the Book of Mormon and Joseph bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divinity of the Book of Mormon by which he declared that the Gospel had been restored and that the Kingdom of God was again established on the earth!
quote:No Diamond. I am simply willing to consider the facts and not allow my theology to be driven by personal greed and arrogance.
You my friend are truly self delusional.
quote:Yeap. I have continually refuted both Smith’s character AND his doctrines first, last, and throughout these discussions.
last thing you have done is refuted anything thing as it pertains to the character of Joseph Smith or the doctrines that here introduced.
quote:Can someone who was in on the con be properly labeled a ‘fanatic’ or simply power hungry?
If you are willing to study just the three witnesses alone and what their peers thought of them after they let the Church, you will know that the term 'fanatic" could never be applied to them.
quote:There is nothing valid in their testimonies to begin with Diamond. You choose to believe such only because it fits your desires to do so.
Being a Nicene Christian, you do not know of any other way to dismiss their valid testimonies for which they paid such a high price for over their lives.
quote:Think I'll pass on that outofstate!
I think you two need to meet at a neutral location and "hug it out."
quote:Correcting Diamond's 'misstatements' and helping him understand the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion' can certainly be a full time job outofstate. Honestly, I am amazed that anyone is actually still reading this thread by now!
I'll give you both an "E" for effort, but this thread needs to die now. It has become nothing but an exercise in futility.
quote:Except by the time they decided to reject Joseph Smith and his theology, they were already so far sunk that there was little chance of "recouping their losses" and much risk in admitting that Smith wasn't what he claimed.
Petro, Not when you have a chance to get even and recoup your losses.
quote:In other words, he very conveniently had an excuse as to why they could only look at a small portion of the plates. Certainly it would have been much easier to simply counterfeit a few metalic plates instead of the entire thing wouldn't it Diamond?
Smith let them see all of the Plates that he was permitted to translate from. He never had access to the sealed plates!
quote:Wrong. But if you insist on believing that assumption than you must also be willing to accept that Strang also found plates from God right? After all, he had 12 witnessess, none of whom ever recanted their testimonies as to what they had seen. If you insist that such is all that is needed to validate Smith's claims, then you have to accept Strang's as well. And yet you don't because your conclusions and assumptions are based on logical analysis but rather on simply what you WANT to believe.
It is almost incalculable the odds of all 11 remaining quiet to a fraud that they would have been a part to, and from which they were expecting to profit from ,but now would be unable.
quote:You think that all of those who are deluded WANT to be told such? No Diamond, many people's ego won't allow them to accept such claims of delusion. You are a perfect example. Let's consider this: If you were told that documentation had been found in which one or more of those witnessess HAD claimd that it was all a fraud, would it change your theological beliefs? Probably not. You instead would try and find excuses for ignoring such documentation as you do with other facts that have been presented out here. And the same would have happened back then. No Diamond, as we have already seen, there were good and solid reasons that those witnessess would have been hesitant to reveal their true feelings about Smith and his theology.
They would have gained much for exposing the fraud materially and the appreciation of those who had been deluded.
quote:And your next statement certainly seems to aknowledge that such an admissions COULD have been dangerous to them.
Even if they had been killed afterwoods, the "fraud" would have been exposed.
quote:Sure they probably wanted revenge. But they probably also wanted to protect both they and their families health and safety AND they wanted to protect their land, assets and potential future power that was available to them within the Mormon organization. No Diamond, in ignoring those particular drivers, you are showing that you have little appreciation for what actually drives much of human nature.
You really have very little understanding of human nature, especially the desire for revenge such as they would have wanted to take on Joseph for expelling them.
quote:Yet another example of the way Mormons 'evolve' their doctrine continuously to fit the desires of its members.
So you understand, no one ever joined the Church because they thought that they could become gods before that Sermon, if anyone ever did. This was the first mention of it.
quote:Smith controlled the 3,000 strong Nauvoo Legion. He was both Mayor of his city AND the religious leader. He used his theology as an excuse to have multiple wives. There were laws in the city that specifically exempted Smith from arrest. He had the power to order printing presses destroyed when they dared to reveal truths about him that he didn't wish people to know about. No Diamond. For you to now claim that Smith neither had nor desired power is not supported by the facts and is yet another indication of the inconsistencies in your arguments.
It is so funny about you thinking that Joseph and the others were about "power". Power for a small, poor, persecuted group of people who were so unpopular?
quote:We know that Smith DID intend to flee until he realized that he was being accused of cowardice by his followers. Smith realized at that point that the only way to retain his hold on his power was to stop the fleeing and take his chances with the courts. Unfortunately, his lawbreaking had so infuriated the local population that he never had the day in court that he deserved.
And then to e willing to give up your life when that means the end of your "power".
quote:It is facts that are the basis for my speculations Diamond.
Sorry Petro, you need to find some thing else as you have no facts but your idle and erroneous speculations.
quote:I never said there was did I??? But that certainly doesn't mean that threats weren't made does it? Do you want to deny the threats within the Danite Manifesto or as spoken by Rigdon?
There is not one documented murder by a "Danite".
quote:Two Mormon leaders of course... You certainly aren't trying to suggest that those two men were unbiased in their opinions are you Diamond? It certainly is convenient how quickly you are willing to take their testimony at face value while just as quickly rejecting the statements made by the jailer and what Smith allegedly told him.... Yet another example of your selective picking and choosing based on what you WANT to believe.
It was John Taylor and Willard Richards, eyewitnesses who observed all of the events in Carthage Jail.
quote:Actually I have continuously succeeded in refuting Smith and his character. And you have either ignored or backpedalled every time it has occured. Remember for example you initially denying that Smith had ever lied about his polygamy? And how much hemhawing around you eventually had to do to try and justify his denial (lying) of such activities?
Sorry but you have only "attempted" to refute Joseph and his doctrines, and quite unsuccessfully I might add.
quote:And yet, in the long term, on a spiritual level, they as compared to the Mormons are the lucky ones because they DID break away!
You see what happened to all those that broke away from the Church and tried to make something to their advantage.
quote:And of course Diamond once again 'forgets' to mention that the author making that claim about Whitmer is a life long Mormon. But I guess in the absence of non-biased, objective support for your claims, you have no choice do you Diamond?
I know this is hard on you Petro, but David Whitmer, ... was esteemed as a man of high character and integrity by all who knew him
quote:First, even people of integrity are often times conned Diamond. Second, we have already seen his continued quest for power for both he and his nephew that would have prevented him from revealing his potential knowledge of the fraud. And third, we have already seen the threats made by the Danites that very well could have made him think twice about fully exposing Smith.
This outspoken and utterly honest personality would have been the first to detect fraud and expose it.
quote:Made right after his claim that according to God, his nephew was to be the true leader of the Mormons right Diamond? Yes even in death, there was motivation to keep any knowledge of Smith's fraud a secret.
I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never denied my testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdrey or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony.
quote:Of course that warning has zero relevance to the Book of Mormon since it was created by man and not by God.
Beware how you hastily condemn that book which I know to be the word of God...That warning is for you also Petro and others.
quote:None of the Strang witnessess ever recanted THEIR testimonies either with regards to Strang's discovery of additional plates. So why do you so selectively choose who to believe and not believe Diamond? The fact that you believe one and not the other shows us that in reality, it has nothing to do with the witnesses and whether they recanted or not.
As I have stated before neither of the three Witnesses nor any of the eight ever recanted their testimonies as published in the Book of Mormon.
quote:Test of time? The Muslims and Buddhist religions have also stood the test of time and flourished. So if you want to use that as some sort of validity test, than you must be as accepting of those other religions as well. The fact that you are not is indication that such a 'test' is completely invalid and irrelevant!
Not only has their testimony stood the test of time, the religious organization they helped found has flourished throughout the world
, Ezekiel 21:19 (twice rendered "choose" in KJV), and Ezekiel 23:47 (KJV "dispatch". The reading of the Hebrew text of 1 Samuel 2:29 has been challenged and other readings proposed, but it is interesting that the verb here appears just before tyvarm (m?-r?'sh?t, "from the beginning of", rendered "with the chiefest" in KJV. This is the same word that appears as tyvarb (ber?'š?t), "in the beginning of" in Genesis 1:1 with the root arb (b?r?').quote:And it is that same 'spirit' that led him away from Christianity and towards Joseph Smith in the first place.
Petro, the same spirit that led David out of the Church is and was the source of his on going spiritual problems.
quote:And another fact that is inescapable is that even immediately prior to death, Whitmer never recanted his claims that Smith was preaching non-Godly doctrine and that his nephew was God's true leader of the LDS organization.
But to his credit, he and the others were faithful to their death bed as to what they heard, saw and handled. Those facts are inescapable!
quote:The facts speak for themselves. Look at how many power struggles developed in the Mormon church as the various leaders tried to gain control. Whitmer is but just one example of this.
I am so amused listening to you describe how it was the wealth and/or power those that were Church leaders were so desirous of keeping.
quote:Yeap. John Taylor is indeed a perfect example of an early Mormon driven not by spiritually but by other desires.
The following example of John Taylor was repeated hundreds of times over by other members of the Church
quote:Yes he gave up some property. But in exchange, he became so powerful that he became president after Brigham Young. AND he got to move into the Gardo Mansion in Salt Lake City. Of course it wasn't just power for himself but power for his family as well that drove him. One son served as one of the first Presidents of the Seventy and also was powerful enough to serve in the Utah legislature. One of his daughters was leader in the Relief Society general presidency and founded the Daughters of Utah Pioneers. And of course one of Taylor's wives was a member of the inaugural general presidency of what eventually became the Young Woman's Association. No Diamond, it becomes obvious that Taylor's power resulting from his involvement in the Mormon organization extended well beyond just himself.
To get some idea of his sacrifice he made at the time of his leaving...
quote:In other words, yet another example of how the Mormon organization ignores Scripture and instead makes things up as they go along always using this alleged 'revelation' as an excuse to say whatever they want.
this is a very intersting discourse on the King Follett Sermon which was very profound as it covered much new doctrine and doctinal insights over 3.5 hours in its presentation without notes, brought about by revelation.
quote:So once again, your leaders make an assumption simply because it 'sounds' reasonable even if it isn't supported by Scripture.
Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos
quote:And as before, you are attempting to force God to live by the physical rules of a physical universe. He exists beyond this universe Diamond and is not bound by it's laws which HE created. You yet again attempt to limit God's powers in order to force fit him to more closely match yourself!
The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed: they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning, and can have no end.
quote:And followers of Sun Myung Moon would just as quickly claim that it was the Spirit of God that led them to become Moonies. Muslims would just as quickly claim that it was the Spirit of God that led them to Islam. But you, like those Moonies and Muslims, are wrong in your assumption as to who was leading you to your theology and away from Christianity!
Petro, it was the Spirit of God that led David to the Church and made him a part of the great work that was about to come forth among the children of men.
quote:So the same man who you just claimed was so full of character and integrity and couldn't be fooled....now you are suddenly saying that his later claims were invalid? You are not being consistent Diamond. Again, you are picking and choosing what you believe based solely on what you WANT to believe.
I do not believe that David ever made that claim, and if he believed that he was spoken to, it was not by God.
quote:In other words, even though they wanted to believe what Smith was claiming, his lack of character and integrity drove a wedge amongst many of his followers.
Most of those who left the Church believed that although Joseph was a Prophet of God, he had become a "fallen" prophet
quote:Or because they realized that the new doctrines that Smith was claiming weren't really coming from God.
because they would not or could not accept the new doctrines that the Lord revealed.
quote:The fact that you mention it means that you have chosen NOT to ignore the timing. So what? Are you suddenly changing your tune and suggesting that you don't believe that revelation was occuring 17 years after Smith's alleged visions? Yet more inconsistency from Diamond.
As far as Stang's work, we will ignore the fact that it came about 17 years after the Book of Mormon.
quote:So are you now suggesting that it is OK to discount the claims of Strang EVEN THOUGH he had so many witnesses testifying to the reality of those plates? So obviously testimony from supposed witnesses suddenly doesn't carry the validity that you earlier attempted to suggest...
The statement of Strang's witnesses speaks of seeing the plates, but mentions nothing of any miraculous character, nor did Strang supply any second set of corroborating testimony comparable to that of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon.
quote:You make this claim and yet don't provide a single source to back it up do you? And you can't because you don't have a clue as to what this alleged source is. And the reason you don't know? Because as is typice for you Diamond, you simply plagiarized your entire argument from fairmormon.org, cut and pasting the entire thing word for word. Typical!
One of the witnesses to the "Plates of Laban," Samuel P. Bacon, eventually denied the inspiration of Strang's movement and denounced it as mere "human invention." Another, Samuel Graham, later claimed that he had assisted Strang in the fabrication of the "Plates of Laban."
quote:Not at all. In reality, the fact that the claims of Strang's witnesses didn't have a supernatural basis, that they didn't involve as far as we know witnesses who were strong believers in folk magic as were Smith's, and the fact that the testimony of Strang's witnesses didn't change as did those of Smith's.... all of those things tend to actually make Strang's claims much MORE credible than Smith's. Of course that doesn't mean a lot since NEITHER of those claims were true. Instead, it simply demonstrates that none of those sort of claims can claim any factual validity based simply on the testimony of alleged witnesses.
The collective testimony of the Book of Mormon Witnesses is, in terms of its evidentiary value and strength, far more challenging to critics than is the testimony of James J. Strang's witnesses.
quote:Or alternately, the reason that some people such as the early Mormon leaders were so easily led astray and away from God and Christianity was BECAUSE of their already existing weaknesses.
You have to understand that when one is converted to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, they do not immediately leave all of their baggage behind. It takes time to overcome all of their weaknesses.
quote:Within the main branch of the Mormon organization perhaps. And that is because all of those who would have contested for power had already been run of or excommunicated. The fact that no one contests Kim Jong-Il for power in North Korea isn't because he is such a good and valid leader. It is because he has already 'removed' any potentiall opposition. Similar to what the Mormons did.
You might notice that after it was revealed that Brigham Young was to succeed Joseph, there was never another "power" struggle again. Ever!
quote:No. It was his desire for power and his desire for carnal opportunities with multiple women.
It was John Taylor's great spirituality that did lead him to abandon all of his wealth that he had personally accumulated.
quote:He could have been the greatest guy in the world to his wiveS and his 37 children. That in no way refutes his drive for power. And it certainly seems to support his desire for sleeping with numerous women doesn't it?
You can read about what kind of husband he was to his wives and what kind of a father he was to his children. 180 degree away from what you would like to believe!
quote:Sure.... No one wants to be a theocratic leader. No one wants to have power concentrated in their hands. You are truly delusional Diamond if you honestly expect anyone to believe that. I don't even thing that YOU believe that.
You have no clue as to what these kind of positions entail. Nobody ever wants the kind of sacrifice of time away from family and personal pursuits, not to mention expense that these positions require.
quote:Unfortunately, such claims are nothing but FALSE revelations.
Revelations are also that which teaches the fullness of the Gospel that had been lost to the world after the Great Apostasy.
quote:In other words, because Smith didn't like or understand what Scripture was saying, he tried to change it so that it would make more sense to him.... Perhaps the resulting modifications he made DO make more sense to him but that unfortunately does not make them valid.
They tie the scriptures together and make plain what the scriptures originally taught
quote:He absolutely is not! God is omnipotent Diamond and has no such limits.
You will learn that God is also bound by laws.
&C 121: 34-42 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson— That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness. That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the p r i c k s, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God. We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. Hence many are called, but few are chosen. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— This is unlike anything you have ever been associated with. quote:You have yet to offer anything but biased opinion as to what made Smith's witnesses so great or made Stang's witnesses so weak.
Sorry Petro, but they never had a witness like that which David Whitmer had
quote:You are denying that Whitmer stated that God appeared to him in '38 and told him to leave the LDS organization??? If you want to take that position, I'll be happy to provide a link to the original source.
Show me where David made this claim.
quote:Which is exactly what happened when they chose to reject Scripture and Christianity and follow Joseph Smith instead.
When the Holy Ghost departs, as it did in David's case, and all others who have denied the truth, they are fair game for the Father of all lies who waits patiently to deceive.
quote:They left because they eventually realized that the Doctrine that Smith was teaching was divinely inspired but instead were just creations of Smith's.
They left because they could not endure sound doctrine that did not fit their preconceived ideas.
quote:That in no way makes their testimony worthless.
Strang's claims are worthless because his witnesses had no supernatural component to their witness;
quote:You still haven't provided any link or reference for those two allegations. And the reason you haven't is because you don't have a clue since you simply plagiarized that claim from fairmormon.org who also didn't choose to provide any support for such allegations.
there was one (Samuel P. Bacon) who later denounced his project as mere "human invention"; and there was one (Samuel Graham) who later confessed to helping fabricate the plates.
quote:Of course we can compare the two. You attempt to validate Smith's claims simply because he had some alleged eyewitnesses. I mention Strang because he ALSO had eyewitnesses but you choose to discount their testimonies simply because you don't like what they claimed to have seen. The key point is that you are being a hypocrite in trying to use eyewitness testimony to validate one event while refusing to do so with the other.
You can not even compare the two although I know you will desperately try.
quote:That is no proof at all. Muslims and Hindus have been around for much longer than Mormons haven't they? So longetivity obviously in no way validates a theology.
But the real proof of the pudding is the fate of this movement -oblivion.
quote:Hillarious that you would attempt to claim fraud with Stang based on the similarities between his and Smith's experience while at the same time, you try and ignore the fact that Smith in turn, stole his 'vision' story from two different previous similar accounts by Norris Stearn and Charles Finney.
Here is a larger piece on Strang's fraud. The link (and there is more information in the link)http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/Strangite_parallels
quote:Again, you simply choose to ignore all the other Mormon denominations. the reality is that the early times of the Mormons had multiple power struggles with many of the supposed leaders all attempting to make their own claims to power for themselves or for relatives!
As I said, there is only one Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and there has never been a power struggle after Brigham Young.
quote:First they were excommunicated and then the Danites ran them off. They certainly didn't want any dissenters creating doubts amongst the followers did they?
Nobody gets "run off" but you can get excommunicated.
quote:Not really for I wouldn't sleep with seven or more different women at once as John Taylor desired and did.
You confuse John Taylor's motives with yours and what they would have been if you were there.
quote:The facts certainly back up my opinion. Those 37 children certainly weren't immaculate conceptions were they?
I find it so amusing that you dare to ascribe those kind of motives to John Taylor
quote:Not at all. But the difference is that when it comes to others, I, unlike you, choose not to usurp God's powers by judging and denying anyone the opportunity to worship God.
when you have a moral center of Jell-O
quote:There is nothing about scripture which tells us that a sinner isn't still capable of preaching the word of God to others.
are so ignorant of the scriptures that you think that someone who is involved in sexual perversion can be saved or is fit to be a minister of Christ.
quote:And adultery is another. And yet the Mormons are willing to turn a blind eye to that particular sin aren't they Diamond. You must have decided that you can pick and choose which positions you take a moral stand on based on which is most convenient or not to you and your religion right Diamond?
And until we repent and turn away from sexual perversion (homosexuality as an example) we are not saved nor are we fit to proclaim his gospel!
quote:I think it is so funny that you so desperately attempt to ignore the great power that Smith and other early Mormon leaders had. When you claim to be a 'prophet' from God, you can make all kinds of proclamations as they certainly did.
I also find it so funny that you are so ignorant as to the "power" you think our leaders have.
quote:Look at the early history of the Mormons and you WILL see their attempts to create Theocracies. Consider Joseph Smith. He wasn't just the leader of his religion. He was also mayor of his town and even created a law stating that he couldn't be arrested within his town's city limits.
You can only take the position on being a theocratic leader because you have only your man made experiences to compare.
quote:I agree. But it certainly wasn't a foreign concept back in the earlier days of the Mormon organization.
It is totally foreign to the Latter-day Saints today.
quote:Unfortunately for you, there was NO revelation involved in the changes and rejections that Smith made of Scripture.
When Joseph was correcting the errors in the Bible by the gift of Revelation
quote:That is the problem that you share with other Mormons Diamond and which Smith capitalized on. Just because something may 'make more sense' doesn't mean that it is therefore correct. And that certainly is the case with Scripture. You reject what Scripture is actually telling us because you want to replace it with something that you are more able to follow and understand. You are attempting to force God's message to fit YOUR comprehension levels instead of realizing that God is beyond ANY of our levels and therefore some things, we may not fully understand...
I am going to give you several corrections that Joseph made which make so much more sense.
quote:Perfect example of Smith changing Scripture simply because he thought that he could make it read 'better' and not because there is any historical or gramatical support for such a change.
In Gen. 6:6 the Prophet Joseph said that the phrase "it repented the Lord' is not correct. He said it ought to read, "it repented Noah that God made man."
quote:They weren't errors. Smith just didn't like what they were saying and therefore took it upon himself to make changes according to his own personal whims.
These are but a few of the Biblical errors that Joseph corrected in the OT alone.
quote:You are absolutely and completely wrong on all three points Diamond. God is omnipotent and therefore, by definition, he is bound by NO laws. And while I don't think God would ever choose to lie, he certainly could do so if he chose and it wouldn't in the least bit effect his powers as God.
God is definitely bound by laws. As an example, he can not lie! If he did, he would cease to be God!
quote:Then why don't you?
Petro, I can sure show you the results of their efforts and what came about.
quote:No they don't. I have already shown to you what motivated them to make their claims along with reasons that they would have been hesitant to admit the fraud later in their lives.
The testimonies of the Three Witnesses go way beyond "biased opinion" and you know it.
quote:Sure. And I imagine that non-Christians will do just that. And THAT Diamond is why my belief in Christianity is based on FAITH and why your Mormon's beliefs also must be based on faith. But apparently that is not enough for you as you continually try to 'prove' your faith and fail horribly every time.
You could make the same accusation against the Twelve Apostles at Christ's time.
quote:You say that and yet you are oh so quickly willing to discount Whitmer's later claims and statements against the Mormons. Did his 'impeccable credentials and honor' suddenly go away? Or did you suddenly reject his claims simply because he stopped saying what you wanted to hear?
They were men of impeccable credentials and honored so by their peers where ever they lived.
quote:You can find it in Whitmer's "An address to all Believer's in Christ". It really isn't that hard to find Diamond which makes me think that you probably are already aware of it and just trying to ignore it. Heck, even fairmormon has an article on it. And I fully expect your next post to contain a parroted response from that site!
Give me the link Petro concerning David's alleged statement.
quote:No Diamond. BECAUSE they had the guidance of the Holy Spirit, they were able to eventually realize that Smith was a false prophet and that is why they eventually rejected him.
They all had the Spirit of Christ and the Gift of the Holy Ghost until they turned against the Lord's Prophet.
quote:The 'allegations' aren't referring to their statements but rather to the fact that what they say occurred is nothing more than allegation.
The witness's testimonies were not "alleged". I do not know how you can even use the term.
quote:No. Smith 'claimed' that all of the above happened. But we have ZERO evidence or support that such actually occurred.
The Lord instructed Joseph that He would reveal to him special witnesses who would have the privilege of seeing the angel Moroni, hearing the voice of God, and handling for themselves the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated.
quote:And yet you choose to discount Whitmer's later claims. Again, you pick and choose what to believe not based on credibility, but rather on simply what you want to hear.
These witness are the most credible when they possess a character and reputation that is above reproach
quote:Except that all of the above WAS in place with regards to these witnesses.
when there is no personal bias, when no conspiring connection exists between them, and there is no potential for personal gain, enrichment, or power.
quote:Except that the stories DIDN'T stay exactly the same. AND you have already been shown that up until the very end, there were reasons for these men to continue to not want to admit that what they had previously claimed was untrue.
In standing the test of time, these witnesses are doubly trustworthy if the story remains the same, in spite of disaffection or even a complete severance in association.
quote:So you are now claiming that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have more validity than Mormonism since they have withstood a longer test of time???
One of the ultimate tests is whether the story itself can endure the passage of time, the discovery of new technology, and advances in science and learning! It has and you know it!!
quote:So now you are claiming that the only reason that you don't believe Strang's claims is because his followers didn't last? That if a religious following HAD developed and was still in place, you would therefore believe what he claimed??? Come on Diamond... I don't believe that would be the case and neither do you. The reality is that you don't buy Strang's claims simply because you didn't like the content of those claims.
Longevity can not prove the validity of a theology but lack of it will prove it is not God's work and Strang and his followers have none!
quote:I already have. Do you deny the content of the Danite Manifesto and the PUBLIC statements that I previously quoted??? No Diamond, the evidence has been provided and you have, once again, chosen to ignore it.
You can talk about the Danites all you want but you have no evidence to support your accusations.
quote:Thinking like a true Mormon there Diamond! I am sure that thought crossed the minds of all involved and probably why they were forced to abandon their lands and flee the Danite Mormons.
If it was a "man made" organization, I would have had the dissenters killed to make sure they created no doubts. They would simply have disappeared.
quote:Do you want specific dates or years? Are you denying that Taylor had the 37 wives at the time that he told the potential converts in Liverpool that Polygamy WASN'T being practiced?
When did John Taylor acquire his plural wives?
quote:Yes. Carnal knowledge with multiple women!
37 children is an example of what the purpose was of plural marriage.
quote:So are you telling me that there aren't active members of the Mormon church who are adulterers as defined by the Bible? Of course you have already admitted that there are. Once again, you are guilty of selective enforcement of the rules based only on the Mormon's comfort level rather than scriptural doctrine.
There is a difference between attempting to "worship God" and being an active "member" in good standing and/or trying to preach the Gospel when you are a practicing sexual pervert or adulterer.
quote:Of course you are wrong on both counts and simply don't have a clue what you are talking about. I suppose it is easier to resort to the personal attacks rather than actually address the theological arguments that you keep losing.
As I said, you have the moral center of Jell-O and are spiritually dead.
quote:You have already aknowledged that such is not the case.
Mormons have never turned a blind eye to adultery. They are excommunicated no matter who they are or what position they might hold.
quote:Nice to FINALLY get you to admit that!
Mormonism is a theocracy but with a blend of democracy.
quote:It was produced using neither but instead simply relied upon Smith's imagination. But by claiming revelation, Smith conveniently created a way to avoid having to actually provide any support or evidence for his claims.
The JST was produced by revelation and not translation
quote:Of course what you continue to refuse to admit is that what Ehrman thought were mistakes in scripture do not in any way match up with what Smith thought were mistakes!
and is a great and wonderful correction of the errors that even Ehrman knows existed.
quote:God never said that was his intent. Yet again, you are simply making assumptions based on your OWN desires. God through scripture gave us the information that we need to worship him and obtain potential salvation. In order for that to happen, we do NOT need to know EVERYTHING about him and his actions.
He expects us to fully understand who He is, his actions and his doctrines
quote:Are you stupid enough to think that I ever made such a claim??? Remember, it is you rather than I that continues to insist that God is weak and without omnipotent power.
Are you stupid enough to think that a perfect God has ever a need to repent?
quote:Once again with the personal attacks Diamond.... The reality is that only someone such as yourself that desires to be a God himself...is forced to believe that God is NOT perfect, righteous, and omnipotent. As far as murder, God is responsible for millions of deaths over the ages. For you to deny that is truly delusional!
Only stupid fools can believe in a perfect and righteous God that needs to repent and is personally responsible for the murder of so many thousands that He was personally the cause of!!
quote:Because I DO understand God, I therefore realize that God IS omnipotent and therefore NOT limited in power as you so desperately desire to believe.
Because you neither know or understand who our Heavenly Father is, I know it is difficult to understand that there are laws in heaven that even He is bound by.
quote:So you believe that being omnipotent means that he would no longer be a God??? Yet another example of just how illogical your arguments are Diamond!
there are laws in heaven that even He is bound by, and the violation of which would make him no longer God.
quote:'Get over' my Christian beliefs??? Not a chance Diamond.
Try to get over it.
quote:
There are no adulterers that are practicing Latter-day Saints
quote:I consistently do Diamond. YOU on the other hand, are the one who has repeatedly been caught making statements that turn out to be nothing but plagiarism of other's works. And even worse, even when called out by us (or the moderators) you still don't have the integrity to admit the plagiarism. No Diamond...it isn't I who is guilty of not doing my own work!
Petro, I want you to do some of your own work.
quote:In the Mormons, we have a religious organization that is materially wealthy due to their focus on cash flow above all else. We also have an organization that thinks that shopping malls and golf resorts are more important than humanitarian aid as indicated by the fact that the Mormons have spent three times as much on that real estate in the last few years as they have on humanitarian aid in the last TWENTY-FIVE years! I see an organization who was founded on a false prophet and has therefore relied on false doctrine from the very start. I see an organization whose founder claims that his sleeping with multiple women was commanded by God. But at the same time, he chooses to lie to others about just such activity.... I see an organization that practiced racism up until 1978 and only stopped because the rest of society forced them to. And of course even today, there are members such as Diamond who continue to support the racism of the Mormon's past.
But in case you miss the obvious, look where the Church is today and it has only just begun.
quote:Wrong. You simply choose to ignore or discount anything presented that doesn't agree with your agenda and beliefs.
You have shown absolutely nothing of any real substance concerning their witness and you lie through your teeth when you claim it.
quote:Again, you refer to their impeccable character and yet choose to completely reject their claims in later life that countered Mormon position. You choose to belief or not belief, not based on their character (or lack thereof), but instead simply on whether their comments at that particular time agree with what you want to hear or not!
You just can not handle what these men of impeccable character testified to!
quote:The Danites certainly indicate otherwise.
They were strong personalties and the Church was long gone and was no threat to them, even in their imagination.
quote:Probably not. But you have already been shown the evidence that at that time, Whitmer was pushing for his nephew as the true leader of the Mormons. As such, even on his deathbed, Whitmer had incentive and reasons not to reveal Smith's fraud.
Of course because you reason so stupidly, when they were on their death bed and reiterated their testimony, they were in fear of there lives. Right?
quote:Already have...repeatedly. See above for example.
Want to explain why two of them came back into the Church knowing they would hold no position of "power" or riches that you so believe motivates us.
quote:I never said you did. But what you DO fail at is showing any support for your answers and for LDS doctrine. As I said before, even if your beliefs are in error, I have no problem with you proclaiming FAITH in your beliefs just as I have FAITH in Christianity. But when you attempt to 'prove' your religion, you continue to fail miserably. It truly makes me wonder how weak must your convictions in your faith be when you aren't willing to rely on faith but feel the need to find some absolute proof instead???
I don't fail at all in explaining any questions or misrepresentations of LDS doctrines
quote:True SOMETIMES. But not all religious conversions are guided by the Holy Ghost. And those who would reject Christianity and embrace Joseph Smith certainly aren't being guided by the Holy Ghost!
But conversion is a result of the witness of the Holy Ghost
quote:When your religious founder chooses to modify scripture to fit his particular beliefs, you in no way are representing Christianity!
Nicene Christianity does not begin to compare with New Testament Christianity whci we represent!
quote:Sure you were Diamond.... If you were aware of it, you would have already plagiarized all of the comments in order to attempt to address my statements. Instead, you simply assumed that because YOU often make claims without any actual support, others must do the same as well. Once again however, your assumption fails in that I show that I do NOT make up claims as you do, but instead make my claims based on evidence and research.
I am aware of the link but was curious to see if you would provide it and how you would do so.
quote:A conclusion of course that is based on the opinion of fairmormon.org! No Diamond, you asked for evidence of my claims which you didn't think I could provide. But I did so without difficulty. And NOW that you have the link, you try to use THEIR opinions to back up your claims.
Of course you provided only a part and you ignore the conclusion it gave, which I shall post:
quote:So what Diamond? Whether his supposed vision occurred before or after he was excommunicated doesn't change the fact that he claims to have had a vision telling him to leave the LDS religion. So based on your claims of his good character, why do you NOT believe him when he states that he had such a vision. Answer: Because his claim doesn't match up with your personal beliefs and you therefore reject Whitmer and his alleged good character whenever it suits you.
Whitmer was not instructed to leave the Church or "repudiate Mormonism," he was instructed to leave Far West after he was already excommunicated.
quote:Even fairmormon aknowledges that making the claims that he did about the Mormons created a threat to his safety. How much MORE of a threat would have been created if he admitted that Smith was a fraud???
This was arguably a very prudent course, both for Whitmer's safety
quote:Not at all because, as already shown, even as he approached death, Whitmer had motivation in the form of his nephew for not revealing his part in the Mormon fraud.
In fact, Whitmer's fidelity to his testimony despite great disagreements with Joseph and the Church strengthen its force.
quote:You are truly delusional Diamond if you believe that about any one of those religions!
Judaism and Christianity are not passing the longer test of time. Islam would not either, except by enforcement of terror of losing limbs and one's life
quote:Typical Diamond in that you only choose to focus on those who are the least faithful to their particular religion while completely ignoring the large majority who DO faithfully live their life as their religion decrees.
To show you the hyprocisy of the leaders like those of Saudi Arabia, they immediately put on Western garb and party as Nicene Christians do with drink and immodest clothing as soon as the jet gets to 30,000 feet.
quote:No. The real reason that you don't believe is because what he claimed doesn't fit with your agenda. The fact that he had the same type of witnesses as did Smith shows that it isn't the witnesses that make you believe or not believe but instead, it is purely a matter of which set of claims matches your personal desires.
The real reason that one would never believe Strang is that he and any other apostate would never have the influence and witness of the Spirit and that they were God's real prophet.
quote:Because those who were threatened were fearful enough that they chose to flee the Danites. Are you really trying to claim Diamond that threats and intimidation are perfectly OK as long as no actual violence occurs??? The holes that you are forced to dig for yourself in order to support your weak arguments are absolutely embarrassing for you Diamond!
Not one proven crime against the so called "danites".
quote:Yeap. As I had previously stated. And those 37 children came from 7+ wives didn't they. And what is worse, is that Taylor lied to the people of Liverpool, England when he claimed that polygamy wasn't being practiced by the Mormons even when he was already married to those women. What kind of theology Diamond requires its leaders to hide the truth from potential converts??? The answer is that a fraudulent religion is the type that requires that!
John Taylor, my careless one, had 37 children, not 37 wives.
quote:Do you deny that he had multiple wives when he spoke to the people in Liverpool Diamond? I'm getting ready to board a plane to Azerbaijan and therefore can't pull up the specific dates right now. But tell me that you deny that he had those wives at the time and I will be happy to provide the links within the next day or so.
But when did he acquire his wives; what month and year?
quote:I already have. But if you want to deny that he did so, then I will be happy to provide the evidence again.
So give me the evidence that President Taylor denied that plural marriage was being practiced.
quote:I am sure that when you have multiple wives to sleep with, the sexual frequency with any one of them probably DOES go down!
I believe that there was no posterity for Joseph from his plural wives was because he would not be permitted to tarry on this earth. Not to mention that intimacy was very infrequent with those that he was intimate with.
quote:There indeed are as you already admitted. Perhaps now you are backpedaling and choosing to make up your own definition of 'adultery' instead of using the Biblical definition? Yet another example of your attempts to pick and choose with regards to which parts of Scripture you choose to follow or reject!
There are no adulterers that are practicing Latter-day Saints and that has been explained to you.
quote:Nope. I simply recognize that even sinners still have the ability to preach the message of God and perhaps bring others to God!
You have a moral center of Jell-O when you support sexual perversion as a legitimate expression of love or worthiness to preach the Gospel.
quote:That is ALL you do Diamond.
I lose no theological arguments.
quote:Of course I know God Diamond. The difference between us is that I, unlike you, don't demand to know EVERYTHING about God but instead trust him to tell us what we need to know. You on the other hand, in your desire to become a God yourself, demand total knowledge from God and when he doesn't provide it, you are forced to resort to false answers generated by man.
You definitely do not "know" him. If you knew what he intended us to know, you would not be so incapable of describing him and his actions.
quote:And I repeat once again that I have never made such a claim.
I repeat, you are a stupid fool if you believe that God ever needs to repent which is what it says in the KJV in the OT.
quote:Wrong. Once again, because of Smith's lack of theological education, he made an assumption about something that was said in Scripture and based on this incorrect assumption, decided to change Scripture to something that he thought sounded better regardless of the fact that he had ZERO support or evidence to justify such a change.
The Prophet Joseph corrected this error, among many others in the Bible.
quote:You state this and yet show that you don't really believe it when you continue to make statements that God has limitations and is not omnipotent!
God is neither weak
quote:And I am sure that once again, you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. In fact, I have stated specifically on more than one occasion that the fighting between various Christian denominations is due to the fault and sins of man rather than any such weakness in God. Guess you 'forgot' those statements didn't you Diamond?
I am sure, based on your stated reasoning, that you think that Catholics murdering Protestants and Protestant murdering Catholics is God's fault.
quote:Wrong. While I don't believe for a moment that God has done either, even if he did, it wouldn't in the least bit affect his nature as God.
God would cease to be God if he lied or committed any unrighteous act.
quote:Yet another made up fact from Diamond completely unsupported by scripture.
Godhood is not just a personage but also an office or position. Someday you will learn that!
quote:And I cannot help that your religion holds so many defective views regarding God.
Petro, I can not help that you hold so many defective views concerning the Church.
quote:Wishful thinking on your part Diamond. No matter how much you desire it, Christianity is not going to go away.
You and yours will simply continue to limp along, weaker and weaker.
quote:And we have already discussed the various reasons that they would not have been inclined to admit their role in Smith's fraud.
The Three Witnesses rejected nothing concerning their testimony.
quote:No. They disagreed with Smith's claims that such doctrines had actually originated from God. They realized that Smith was building his theology around his personal desires that had nothing to do with God.
They disagreed with some of the new doctrines that the Lord revealed through Joseph
quote:And yet again, we have already discussed both the threats and the personal motivations that kept them quiet.
But these witnesses never denied what they heard, saw and handled and there is NO way you can get around that fact!!
quote:But there IS evidence that they made threats and that the opposition took those threats seriously!
The Danites were long gone and there never was a single bit of evidence that they did any violent acts.
quote:But it didn't stop him from still trying to promote his nephew did it? And if he had admitted that Smith was a fraud, his nephew would have had even less of a chance!
When you talk about a desire that David Whitmer had in trying to influence others so that a relative could lead the Church, you must remember that David was not a member of the Church and thus had no influence.
quote:Yes Brigham Young sucessfully consolidated his power and silenced his opposition.
After Brigham Young became the President of the Church, no one could have changed anything.
quote:So you therefore accept as truth his claim regarding God speaking to him in 1838? Or do you want to pick and choose which of his falsehoods you want to believe?
When he made his final statement concerning what he heard and saw and handled, he knew that he would be facing God very shortly and as religious as he was, he would not go to his death promulgating a terrible falsehood.
quote:Of course they do as evidenced by your animosity towards Christian doctrine.
If you were willing to learn, you would find that people who join the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not reject Christianity,
quote:So is Islam Seven Day adventists, Jehova's Witnessesan etc. That doesn't mean that any of those religions or mormonism are therefore valid.
The Church they have established is spreading throughout the world
quote:It isn't the Holy Ghost that is responsible for conversion to Mormonism or any other non-Christian religion.
I would admonish you that there is no other conversion to any other religion that is by the Holy Ghost.
quote:No diamond. Converting to Mormonism doesn't take courage but rather gullibility.
It just takes courage Petro and I know that it is hard.
quote:Fortunately, Christianity isn't a "trap" as you try to portray it!
But, I have been where you are now trapped!
quote:And of course no one believes that except the Mormons. The key point is that there is absolutely zero evidence or support that there was anything divine in Smith's rejection and rewrite of scripture. Believe as you like Diamond but understand that your belief is based on faith and not on evidence!
The correction of scripture that Joseph made was simply to teach the world the real truth as to what the scriptures originally said.
quote:I DO reject it due to it running counter to Scripture and Christianity.
But, you are free to reject the glad message that is provided,
quote:It was much more than that. Did you ever read his statement that I referenced earlier or are you comfortable simply parroting the fairmormon site rather thab doing any research on your own?
David's vision was to leave Far West.
quote:He never rejected his claim regarding his 1838 vision did he?
But I do accept and respect the fact that he never rejected his testimony, regardless of much pressure and circumstance.
quote:Possibly. Buth the evidence shows that the reality is that the risk of making such an admission far outweighed any possible enrichment opportunities.
I also recognize he could have enriched himself greatly by detailing a so called fraud
quote:But as previously discussed it wasn't JUST the threats that kept Whitmer quiet but also the desire to place his nephew in a position of power.
There would have been no threat to him because David was long gone from among the Saints and would have been fiercely protected by the Missourians.
quote:Bull. They hoped to get away from society so that they could exert greater control over all aspects of their society. They thought they were going to be able to create a theocracy and for a while, they were right.
When the Church crossed the Mississippi, most nonmembers thought it was going to its destruction.
quote:And yet he still hoped and tried didn't he?
David had not a prayer of success if that was his desire for his nephew. Church government would not have permitted it.
quote:The only thing consistent about you Diamond is your continued failures with regards to your theological arguments!
The Lord's Church is a house of order!quote:So what part of my claim do you dispute Diamond? Thjat Taylor denied in Liverpool that polygamy was being practiced by Mormons or that he already had multiple wives at the time? Which is it Diamond or do you even know why you reject my statement?
And the Mormon religion is a house of politics and accountants.quote:'Goverment' is a good way to describe it!
You really should spend some time educating yourself about Church Government.quote:EVERY regard Diamond? Including his 1838 vision?
You might also want to consider why would a man, considered to honest in every regardquote:For the same reason that many men throughout history have risked salvation in pursuit of Earthly power.
proclaim a fraudulent work just to acquire eventual condemnation for himself and a relative in the next world?quote:Of course you are. But no one expects you to recognize it or admit it. But all of us out here see it Diamond.
I am not delusional.quote:The 'fanatics' do indeed. So the big question is did the Mormon Danites pick up this technique from the Muslims or was it the other way around?
You see how the Islamic fanatics enforce their religious beliefs on their own people.quote:So because they fled out of fear as a result of Mormon threats, they were therefore 'gutless'???
Gee, all those gutless Mormon's who were so ready to flee the Danites at a "threat"quote:It doesn't really matter does it. The Mormons once again showed that they had no problem going outside the law to silence those who dared speak out against them,
But, then again, you might want to check who was in Nauvoo at the time the Expositor was destroyed.
[Quite]Of course John Taylor had 7 wives and 37 children but I do not believe you can show me a link where he lied to the people in Liverpool. But what were the years that he took his wives?quote:And I could say the same about your acceptance of adultery. You are picking and choosing Diamond.
Everyone is a sinner and your defective views on sexual perversion shows how out of step you are with both the OT and NTquote:Wrong. Even sinners can still lead others to God.
This is why that disqualifies them from having active membership in "His" church or to preach his gospel.quote:your hatred of and desire to see Christianity destroyed is quite amazing (and rather sad). But I suppose ypur desperate hope is that if Christianity was to go away, Mormonism would't appear as flawed and people would therefore be more easily converted.
But if I was a cynic, I could take the position that the positive thing for mankind is that people like yourself are helping to weaken and eventually destroy Henry's church.quote:Most, if not all, Christian churches, regardless of denomination, are part of the Lord's Church.
Not to mention that since none of your churches are the Lord's church
[Quotea I loose no theological arguments; not one!
quote:Not at all. Your problem Diamond is that you are only willing to consider 'physical' descriptions for a spiritual God.
You know you kid yourself when you claim you know God when you can describe no attributes that he has.
quote:Nope. Your addition of the 'physical' qualifier isn't supported by scripture.
He is our Father in Heaven in whose physical image and likeness we are created in.
quote:Of course you do. And in areas that God didn't provuide answers, the Mormons simply create their own best guess explanation and offer it as doctrine.
Latter-day Saints "demand" nothing from God
quote:An error in your translation and comprehension Diamond.
I am glad that you have accepted the fact that this is an error concerning the nature of God i.e. that he would ever need to repent.
quote:Again, your lack of comprehension doesn't equate to a scriptural error.
The Prophet Joseph Smith is the only person I know that has corrected that error as well as so many others.
quote:Wrong. Someone without a strong theological education would have been exactly the type to misunderstand those Scriptures and therefore assume that they needed to be changed.
I am glad that you are so willing to admit that Joseph had a lack of theological education, and thus would have never picked up on the subtleties such as God hardening Pharaoh's heart, or God needing to repent, etc.
quote:Or in reality, he claimed revelation because he has zero physical evidence to support his claims.
He did not need any physical evidence as to a text because he enjoyed the real advantage of revelation
quote:Of course it does. Someone subject to limitations IS weaker than someone without such limitations.
Having limitations has nothing to do with being "weak".
quote:Catholics and Protestants are led by Satan? Good luck with that one!
I think that you can thus easily conclude that none of these Catholics and Protestants enjoyed the Spirit of Christ nor did the church whose leaders sent them out. They were led by Satan!
quote:Nope. Christ's church has never left us. You once try and reject Christianity by focusing only on those weakest in their faith while ignoring those who are strongest.
Again, just more overwhelming evidence Petro, that Christ's Church was no longer on the earth!!
quote:As with most of your conversion stories Diamond, we have a guy who is led to convert by a Mormon girlfriend. Certainly a good indication of just how strong the emotion of love is and how willing people are to suspend logic and objectivety as a result of such emotion. Of course you already knew that based on your own wife's willingness to convert in order to preserve your marriage right?
During his visit, he and Laurel went to Temple Square.
Three weeks later, he was baptized, and a year later, he and Laurel were married in the Mesa Arizona Temple.
