The Monks at the Cistercian Monestary in Irving all take communion by intinction. Everyone else does not.

Only a priest can do the dipping.

quote:

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Do they?

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Yes they do: Galatians 2:4 - This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.


Theology matters.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

Aggie4Life.

How do you propose that we 'have no disagreements?'

quote:

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How do you propose that we 'have no disagreements?'

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Go to a Church where you agree with its doctrine and submit yourself to the elders and leadership of the Church.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

So, if everybody picks their church based on what they agree with than there will be no disagreements among us?

quote:

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So, if everybody picks their church based on what they agree with than there will be no disagreements among us

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I assume when you use "us", you are including the Roman Catholic Church in that. I do not. I view it as an apostate Church. I believe in the motto: In essentials, unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity. I believe that I have unity with all those who hold to the essentials of the Christian faith, even in other denominations.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

quote:

---

I assume when you use "us", you are including the Roman Catholic Church in that. I do not. I view it as an apostate Church. I believe in the motto: In essentials, unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity. I believe that I have unity with all those who hold to the essentials of the Christian faith, even in other denominations.

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And what are the essentials Aggie4Life? (And where did Jesus say anything about only having unity on just 'the essentials?')

PS. Very charitible to call more than 50% of those that profess Christ on the planet 'apostate.' You are also calling the all of the church fathers 'apostate' too. In fact, according to you, the entire church was 'apostate' for 1500 years huh? And Martin Luther reclaimed the true gospel? You know Joseph Smith makes the same claim don't you?

[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 7/7/2009 4:29p).]

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And what are the essentials Aggie4Life?

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The nature of God and the nature of soteriology are the main ones.

quote:

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(And where did Jesus say anything about only having unity on just 'the essentials?')

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...you think Rome and its members are united on essentials, much less non-essentials?

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Very charitible to call more than 50% of those that profess Christ on the planet 'apostate.'

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Would you like me to use a different word? Not all who are members of the Roman Catholic Church are apostate. Luckily, not all who are apart of Rome agree with Rome. However, Roman Catholic doctrine proper is, in my view, anathema to the Gospel of Christ.

quote:

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You are also calling the all of the church fathers 'apostate' too. In fact, according to you, the entire church was 'apostate' for 1500 years huh?

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Only if you accept Rome's revisionist Church history, which I don't

quote:

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And Martin Luther reclaimed the true gospel?

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The Church has never ceased to exist on the Earth.

quote:

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You know Joseph Smith makes the same claim don't you?

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Joseph Smith has much more in common with Rome that with Protestants who practices Sola Scriptura.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior


[This message has been edited by Aggie4Life02 (edited 7/7/2009 5:13p).]

quote:

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And where did Jesus say anything about only having unity on just 'the essentials?'

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Paul certainly writes about this in relation to the Gentiles not following Jewish regulations on food and such. He says that if they are doing it with a clear conscience before God and out of love, then they are free.

Aggie4Life.

Do you know what sophistry is?

I think that if one would consider actually reading up on the actual beliefs of the modern Roman Catholic church rather than relying on myths and half-truths, one would find vast similarities to the writings of John Wesley (founder of the Methodist church) on many issues, especially regarding the core beliefs of the role of faith and works. There are differences (which many have already pointed out), but apart from church structure and certain non-essential differences in worship the core beliefs are not all that different.

The problem it seems is that the modern Methodist Church is for the most part not very similar to what it was when it first began in Wesley's Thursday night meetings, and has been morphed into something that Wesley said would happen:

“I am not afraid that the people called Methodists should ever cease to exist either in Europe or America. But I am afraid lest they should only exist as a dead sect, having the form of religion without the power. And this undoubtedly will be the case unless they hold fast both the doctrine, spirit, and discipline with which they first set out.”

The doctrine of the early Methodist church was based upon the striving for personal holiness to be brought about by confession, repentance, and spiritual discipline...an ideal very much held by Catholics and something that is now automatically labeled "legalism" by many many Christians. Not very many Methodist Churches (and many other Protestant churches) focus on the spiritual disciplines anymore due to (sadly) competition with independent user-friendly churches.

If you were to read the writings of Wesley and go to a typical American United Methodist church you would wonder why they even bothered calling themselves Methodist anymore.

[This message has been edited by tifire85 (edited 7/7/2009 5:30p).]

quote:

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I assume when you use "us", you are including the Roman Catholic Church in that. I do not. I view it as an apostate Church.

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You may want to see if your church teaches that you must physically eat the body and drink the blood of Christ to have eternal life (John 6:53). You might also want to see if your church teaches that you must make up in your body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ (Colossians 1:24). And does your church meet daily for the breaking of the bread (Acts 2:42-46). And are your church's decisions ratified on earth AND in heaven (Matthew 18:18)? And does your church teach that the w hore of Babylon is a great city where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8 and 17:18)? And does your church have a ritual for sick people that takes away their sins (James 5:14-15)? And does the Church teach that celibacy is a good thing? (Matthew 9:12, Luke 18:29-30, 1 Corinthians 7: 25-27, 1 Corinthians 7:32-38, Revelation 14:3-5).

If not, Aggie 4 Life, then you may want to consider your church to be the non-biblical apostate church.

[This message has been edited by Thaddeus73 (edited 7/7/2009 6:08p).]

The anti-Catholic agenda has arrived. Anyone want to wager that none of these haters has ever read the catechism to understand what we believe and why?

quote:

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The anti-Catholic agenda has arrived. Anyone want to wager that none of these haters has ever read the catechism to understand what we believe and why?

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...Have you read the Westminster Confession of Faith or the Westmister shorter and larger chatichism? If not, you must be an anti-Presbyterian.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

No, and I don't go on message boards professing to know what they believe. So I will say I am not anti-whatever.

quote:

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No, and I don't go on message boards professing to know what they believe.

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3/4 of my family are Catholic, so I think I have a pretty good idea. Do you feel like I have misrepresented what the Roman Catholic Church teaches?

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

yes

No point in debating a topic if the other person has not even read a basic primer on said topic. Having Catholic family doesn't qualify you to speak on behalf of Catholic doctrine.

So lets just end it here.

Aggie4Life.

Having Catholic family doesn't mean you know the dogma nor does it mean that you have the authority to make baseless claims like, 'the Catholics have revisionist history that hides Calvinism in the early church.' That is so incredible ridiculous and smacks of sophistry...E.G. - Not really caring about the truth of things but rather just want to win an argument by table pounding.

I taught sunday school in the PCA to adults one year. The topic: WHAT PRESBYTERIANS BELIEVE - The WCOF.

Not that it matters. I contribute to a website that is comprised completely of former adherents of the various Reformed confessions including former Presbyterian pastors. Called to Communion. Check it out sometime.

quote:

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Having Catholic family doesn't qualify you to speak on behalf of Catholic doctrine.

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...I'm still waiting on an example of how I misrepresented what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

Is this not a true statement - "The Catholic Church teaches that a person is saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and that faith is infused with works that are meritorious unto salvation."?

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

If understood correctly, that statement isn't the false one.

I am talking more about outlandish claims like the 'revisionist Catholic history' which apparently is engaged in a huge cover up and that is why you can say with a straight face that the early church wasn't apostate due to their soteriology.

Because, as somebody of your learning definitely knows, many Protestant historians admit that Luther's teaching on justification was a departure from orthodoxy. Allistair McGrath, eminent historian, called it 'theological novum.'

quote:

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Because, as somebody of your learning definitely knows, many Protestant historians admit that Luther's teaching on justification was a departure from orthodoxy. Allistair McGrath, eminent historian, called it 'theological novum.'

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If by orthodoxy, you mean Roman Catholic orthodoxy, then I agree with you. I see Luther's teaching on justification a return to the teaching of the Apostles. That isn't to say that it was novel at the time, just novel to the Rome dominated Western Church.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

quote:

---

If by orthodoxy, you mean Roman Catholic orthodoxy, then I agree with you.

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I am talking about 'c'atholic orthodoxy. Meaning 'universal' orthodoxy.

quote:

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I see Luther's teaching on justification a return to the teaching of the Apostles. That isn't to say that it was novel at the time, just novel to the Rome dominated Western Church.

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Can you give some data that supports that assertion Aggie4Life? It shouldn’t be too hard. All you need to do is name some early church teaching that is Lutheran.

I’ll help. Here is just one. You deny that baptism is regenerational because Luther and Calvin did. This is an 'essential' by your definition because it is about soteriology.

The bible is replete with regenerational language about baptism. 'Baptism now saves you' -Titus 3:5. To be baptized is to be 'born again' - John 3. Peter calls baptism the 'washing of regeneration.' Here is a site with many scriptural references to baptism.

Further, the apostolic church from the earliest witness all the way through the ages were unanimous about baptismal regeneration.

In conclusion:

A) The bible makes a strong case for baptismal regeneration even calling it a 'regenerational washing.'

B) The constant and consistent testimony of the universal church since the earliest writings, through the great councils which defined the Trinity and the Canon itself reveal that baptism was always held to be regenerational...

But then…

Luther, who you claim 'restored apostolic teaching,’ disagreed with it and cast it away.

You’ve made the claim that Luther restored apostolic teaching. The historical extant evidence and scripture itself suggests that Luther departed not only from orthodoxy but from the apostolic teaching.

If you are going to make the brash claim that Luther restored apostolic teaching you need to demonstrate it. Because if you do not demonstrate that you are making the same tedious claim as the Mormons.

Before you spin your wheels too much here is a quote from one of the Reformed fathers that you may find interesting:

quote:

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“In this matter of baptism — if I may be pardoned for saying it — I can only conclude that all the doctors have been in error from the time of the apostles. . . . All the doctors have ascribed to the water a power which it does not have and the holy apostles did not teach.”

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- Huldrych Zwingli

An admission from Zwingi that the church fathers, none of them, taught non-regenerational baptism.

According to you, since this is an essential issue than all of the church fathers and the church that they were members of were 'apostate.'

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However, Roman Catholic doctrine proper is, in my view, anathema to the Gospel of Christ.

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Torbush

quote:

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...Have you read the Westminster Confession of Faith or the Westmister shorter and larger chatichism? If not, you must be an anti-Presbyterian.

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silly argument

quote:

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silly argument

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I agree. Which is why it is a mischaracterization to call me anti-Catholic.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

Seamaster...too much to cover now and I have to go to work. Just FYI, you misquoted Titus 3:5.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior

Right. Titus 3:5 talks about the washing of regeneration.

quote:

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You deny that baptism is regenerational because Calvin did.

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FIFY

Augsburg Confession
Article XI
1]Of Baptism they (scripture) teach that it is necessary 2]to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.
3]They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.

FYI the Augsburg Confession was not written by Luther but you can be certain that he agreed with it.

[This message has been edited by austagg99 (edited 7/8/2009 11:26a).]

Titus 3:5:

quote:

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...he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit...

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This isn't a reference to baptism. It's a reference to being cleansed by the spirit.

Note the operative words in this verse:

He saved us (we didn't do it). How? By His mercy (not by our works). And by the cleansing and renewal of the Holy Spirit (not by the ritual involving water).

The whole verse points to the fact that it is God that saves us... and it's not of our own doing. That's the entire point of this passage.

It's actually a very compelling verse in the whole works vs. faith argument.

[This message has been edited by TechDiver (edited 7/8/2009 11:37a).]

TechDiver.

That Titus 3:5 refers to baptism is unanimous
in the church fathers. The word 'washing' is loutron. Greek lexicon says: a bath, immersion, baptism, washing. In the NT and apostolic writings, 'loutron' generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

This is what the Greek fathers (who obviously understood the Greek) interpreted.

There is no reason to think that it does not refer to baptism. I know that in the modern era there exist multiple contrary interpretations. But the point isn't to go back and forth and try to convince one another that A or B is the 'right' interpretation.

The point of this tangent was Aggie4Life's statement that the Catholic Church is an apostate church because we don't agree with him on the 'essentials.' I was showing that nobody prior to the Reformation agreed with him on the 'essentials.' Therefore, according to Aggie4Life, the church was truly apostate in total until the reformation.

On Luther, I misspoke on his take on baptism regeneration. Do modern day Lutherans accept this teaching? My point to Aggie4Life still stands because he is a Calvinist.

quote:

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The word 'washing' is loutron...

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Why not just use the Greek word "baptizo" if it meant "baptism"?

It's obvious that Paul knew that word in Greek, and what it meant.

We disagree. That's okay.

And fwiw, I also disagree with Aggie4life02...

Thats ok TD.

Similarity missed by other posters on this thread: Both the UMC (district superintendent) and the RCC (bishop) send pastors to individual congregations rather than via a call from the local congregations' ruling body (elders, deacons, etc).

Difference missed by other posters on this thread: UMC eucharist is open to all professing to be Christian, usually observed monthly. RCC communion is denied to all who are not "official" RCC, at every Mass.