Was Augustine a Calvinist?

3,865 Views | 45 Replies | Last: 17 yr ago by Seamaster
Aggie4Life02
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quote:
So yes it has slightly more authority that "any other bishop"


Not according to the Council of Nicaea and prior.

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Guadaloop474
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So you can't even post one historical reference? The fact that Peter didn't call Paul the Bishop of Rome in scripture (Rome is Babylon in Revelation) "proves" to you he wasn't the first Bishop of Rome? The altar of St. Peter's basilica is built directly over the tomb of St. Peter, which had his bones in it, and the inscription "Here lies Peter".

St. Peter's tomb has been found in fairly recent excavations, located, amazingly, about 100 feet below the current Altar table of St. Peter's Basilica. Little did I know until going there that our current Basilica is built directly over the ruins of the original Christian Basilica.

This first Christian Basilica was built by Emperor Constantine around 315 AD in a "new" style to meet the needs of Christian worship. This was another landmark innovation by Constantine, who took older Roman Basilicas, designed for kingship government functions, and added features to it to support the Catholic needs--a rectory, an isolated courtyard for prayer walks and for the Pope to hear confessions of his young priests, various chapels, dais for the altar, Christian images in place of pagan ones, pews, choir areas, balconys...Every Christian church building traces its design influence to this first Catholic Basilica. In the movie 'The Agony and the Ecstasy', the master-architect ____ refers to that Basilica as:

"The first Church of Christians, the..."

Soil was moved over it in the 1500's to build the current Basilica of St. Peter. I believe the original area had flooding problems, but am not sure.

This Basilica, built by "favor" of Constantine, is now unearthed fairly extensively underneath the current St. Peter's Basilica. It is like going back to a very old town, structures with the old red bricks mortared together, much like our own modern brick houses, but with arch structures, and bricks being thinner, even more solid shape.

Going down through this underground "lost city", we reach the chambers where a huge, beautiful white marble coffin was found, known to have held the bones of St. Peter. It has many amazing ornate carvings, figures of angels, cherubim's, people of the time, etc. and some inscriptions. (____ "Here lies peter?" His bones had been moved around reportedly in the Catacombs, then settled Here when Constantine "favored" Christians. When Constantine built this new Basilica for them on top of St. Peter's tomb, he fulfilled the prophecy, "... You Peter are the Rock, upon which I until build my Church". It is amazing that for hundreds of years, attending Mass at St. Peter's Basilica, many of us didn't know of underneath, where "Rock upon which I'll build my Church" was literally true.

http://musictimeline.net/tours/Rome/Vatican-travel-guide2.htm
Still waiting for at least one historical reference from you, which, I guess, doesn't exist.
Aggie4Life02
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You can't prove a negative. The burden is on you who makes the positive assertion.

Peter was martyred by Nero in Rome. Of course his body would be there.

He certainly was not the Bishop when Paul wrote his letter to the Romans.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
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SigChiDad
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quote:
Peter was martyred by Nero in Rome


I'm curious what you base that on?
AG Custom
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my assumtion is aggie4life basis everything on quick google searches and can not site any sources.

Basically argue for sake of argue but really gets discredited on almost everything in this topic, but hey its just my opinion.
Seamaster
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Aggie4Life,

So is the new argument that the church was OK up until Nicea (325) and then the Catholic church 'added' the papacy?

(And any evidence to the contrary is just that the church father 'had bad information?')

Interesting perspective Aggie4Life.

You can have the last word, I guess.
94chem
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You are all missing a fundamental question:

Was Calvin a Calvinist?
Aggie4Life02
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It was after Nicea that the Bishop of Rome started to usurp the power of the other Bishops.

This is ultimately what split the Western and Eastern Churches.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior
Seamaster
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^

One more time because I cannot believe you are keeping this up....

Merely exchanging assertions is altogether different from reasoning together. In the latter, we give reasons and substantiate evidence for our claims, and try not to beg the question. But there is really no point at all to an exchange of table-pounding. When we're *reasoning together* then we can't just throw out a bunch of assertions; we have to defend our claims.


Aggie4Life02
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quote:
Merely exchanging assertions is altogether different from reasoning together.



I'm still waiting on some contemporary evidence that Peter was the Bishop of Rome and that the Pre-Nicaean fathers believed in a centralized Bishop of Bishops.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
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Aggie4Life02
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From Canon 6 of the Nicaean council:

quote:
Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges.


Clear indication that a centralized authority did not exist at the time of Nicaea, and the Bishop of Rome had jurisdiction only over limited area.

How Not to be Poor - A Five Step Plan
by: Dr. Walter E. Williams

1) Graduate from high school
2) Get married before you have children
3) Stay married
4) Work at any kind of job
5) Avoid engaging in criminal behavior
Seamaster
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quote:
I'm still waiting on some contemporary evidence that Peter was the Bishop of Rome and that the Pre-Nicaean fathers believed in a centralized Bishop of Bishops.


OK. I thought we covered this.

Firstly, it is not Catholic teaching that the Bishop of Rome is the "centralized Bishop of Bishops." All of the local bishops have local authority. This is why Canon 6 of Nicea fully supports Catholic ecclesiology.

"The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger."
Clement of Rome, Pope, 1st Epistle to the Corinthians, 1,59:1 (c. A.D. 96).


In AD 96, the Church of Rome telling the Church in Corinth that they must obey the Church of Rome.

"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..."
Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).


The Church in Rome which 'presides.'

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; we do this, I say, by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also by pointing out the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those faithful men who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).

The Church in Rome...as a matter of necessity, all must agree with this church because of her authority. Apostolic tradition is preserved in the church in Rome.

"A question of no small importance arose at that time. For the parishes of all Asia, as from an older tradition, held that the fourteenth day of the moon, on which day the Jews were commanded to sacrifice the lamb, should be observed as the feast of the Saviour's Passover. It was therefore necessary to end their fast on that day, whatever day of the week it should happen to be. But it was not the custom of the churches in the rest of the world to end it at this time, as they observed the practice which, from apostolic tradition, has prevailed to the present time, of terminating the fast on no other day than on that of the resurrection of our Saviour...Thereupon Victor, who presided over the church at Rome, immediately attempted to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia, with the churches that agreed with them, as heterodox; and he wrote letters and declared all the brethren there wholly excommunicated.”
Pope Victor & Easter (c. A.D. 195).


AD 195. How would the bishop of Rome have authority over the bishops of Asia?

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, *'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided."
Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).


*Feed my sheep is the command given to Peter by Jesus before his ascension. There is a singular chair which holds the unity of the Church. All of the Bishops are united under this singular chair. Maybe you don't understand Catholic ecclesiology but local Bishops have real authority and act as 'popes' over their communities.

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access."
Cyprian, To Cornelius, Epistle 54/59:14 (A.D. 252).


"Stephen, that he who so boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid...Stephen, who announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter."
Pope Stephen I regn. A.D. 254-257, Firmilian to Cyprian, Epistle 74/75:17 (A.D. 256).


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