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For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

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Of course. That makes perfect sense.

ibm, Luke 23:43 is crystal clear to me. The thief on the cross called on Christ and was saved, without works, education or ritual (all those things which you, and the "natural man," prize beyond simple faith).

Whatever your definition of "paradise" is...I just don't care. Paradise with Jesus sounds good to me, especially coming from Christ himself.

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Tender Mercies w/ Robert Duvall

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I was in that movie. Sang in the church choir as an extra. And the choir director (big guy) was the choir director at the church I grew up in.

I was also in the movie "Places in the Heart" with Sally Field.

True story. Both were filmed in and around my hometown.

I don't think very highly of Sally Field, but Robert Duvall was as solid and humble a guy as you could want to meet.

one of my favorite films ever. great to hear that my favorite actor is a good guy. and Horton Foote was an awesome writer.

I was a child model in Japan in the mid 1980s - early 1990s.

I am being serious.

Velvet - the thief was only with Christ for three days in the Spirit world. Christ then went back to the tomb and spent time with the Apostles and others and then ascended into heaven. I suggest you read carefully this part of the vision that Joseph F. Smith had in the early 1900s. It will help clear up your misunderstandings.

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.
12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;
13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.
14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.
16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.
18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;
19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.
20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.
22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;
23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.
24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.
25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;
26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.
27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;
28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.
29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;
30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.
31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.
36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;
37 That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words.

The thief therefore had the Everlasting Gospel preached to him. He had to repent, as he had already exhibited faith in the Savior, and then have a vicarious baptism of water and fire performed on his behalf at a later date when there were temples and priesthood authority to perform these necessary saving ordinances.

Seamaster, a child model in Japan?
that's awesome.

TVM.

Yeah, it was fun. My parents obviously made me save most of the $ for college and I think it paid for most of freshman year expenses.

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I always chuckled when they made a big deal about christenings on the Sopranos

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I can explain, TVM, it's the same in the Orthodox community.

When a person is the Godfather of your child, there are promises attached that involve the child's future.

If anything happens to the parents, the Godfather will take the child into his home to raise.

If the mother is left widowed, the Godfather makes sure his Godchild is provided for and helps him get an education.

And if the parents fall away from the faith, the Godfather promises to bring the child to church and catechism classes.

He becomes the childs mentor in every sense of the word.

The Godparents become part of your family from that day on.

They are called Koumbari, and I suspect the Italian word "Goombah" is a corrubtion of that word.

DP

[This message has been edited by primrose (edited 2/13/2009 11:31p).]

This thread brings to mind the following story which attests to the communal aspect of infant, and sometimes adult, baptism.

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As I neared the end of the evangelization of the first six Masai communities, I began looking towards baptism. So I went to the old man Ndangoya's community to prepare them for the final step.

I told them I had finished the imparting of the Christian message inasmuch as I could. I had taught them everything I knew about Christianity. Now it was up to them. They could reject it or accept it. I could do no more. If they did accept it, of course, it required public baptism. So I would go away for a week or so and give them the opportunity to make their judgment on the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they did accept it, then there would be baptism; however, baptism wasn't automatic. Over the course of the year it had taken me to instruct them, I had gotten to know them very well indeed.

So I stood in front of the assembled community and began: "This old man sitting here has missed too many of our instruction meetings. He was always out herding cattle. He will not be baptized with the rest. These two on this side will be baptized because they always attended, and understood very well what we talked about. So did this young mother. She will be baptized. But that man there has obviously not understood the instructions. And that lady there has scarcely believed the gospel message. They cannot be baptized. And this warrior has not shown enough effort... "

The old Man, Ndangoya, stopped me politely but firmly. "Padri, why are you trying to break us up and separate us? During this whole year that you have been teaching us, we have talked about these things when you were not here, at night around the fire. Yes, there have been lazy ones in this community. But they have been helped by those with much energy. There are stupid ones in the community, but they have been helped by those who are intelligent. Yes, there are ones with little faith in this village, but they have been helped by those with much faith. Would you turn out and drive off the lazy ones and the ones with little faith and the stupid ones? From the first day I have spoken for these people. And I speak for them now. Now, on this day one year later, I can declare for them and for all this community, that we have reached the step in our lives where we can say, 'We believe'."

We believe. Communal faith. Until that day I had never heard of such a concept, certainly had never been taught it in a classroom. But I did remember the old ritual for baptism of children, the first question in that ceremony. "What do you ask of the church of God?", we inquired of the infant. Of course, he couldn't answer for himself. He couldn't speak for himself. He couldn't even think for himself. He certainly could not believe. And there is no such thing as a valid baptism without belief. Such an act would be magic, witchcraft.

The answer to that question, supplied by sponsors, was not "baptism" or "salvation". It was "faith". That is what the child asked of the church of God, of the community of believers – faith, their faith, to become his, to make baptism possible.


I looked at the old man, Ndangoya. "Excuse me, old man, "I said. "Sometimes, my head is hard and I learn slowly. 'We believe,' you said. Of course you do. Everyone in the community will be baptized. "

Vincent Donovan (1978)
THE LORD OF THE JOURNEY - Edited and Compiled by Roger Pooley and Philip Seddon

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Clarity, clarity, clarity, one can see multiple examples of believers that were baptized, or even the obedient baptism of Jesus, but infant baptism, well now we have to play the surmise and infer game.

In salvation issues I want some biblical clarity.
In the Bible, I only see believers getting baptized, that's it, no others.

Infant Baptism is the gift of the Holy Spirit to infants. We know that John the Baptist received the gift of the Holy Spirit even in Elizabeth's womb.

In the OT, infant males were circumcised, and were presented to the Lord, all based on the Jewish faith of their parents. Infant Baptism parallels this in a way for Christians.

Josietoo, that was lovely

It explains beautifully the communal asepect of infant baptism .

Perhaps this might shed some light on how and when the controversy began.


Mark Swearingen , october 8, 2000

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Infant baptism has been the normal practice of Christians throughout the entirety of the Christian era, from the early church up to the present time. It is still the practiced today among Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and most Protestant denominations. It was never a controversial or debated issue until about 1525, when those in the "Anabaptist" movement rejected infant baptism and began re-baptizing each other, viewing their infant baptisms as invalid.




(It is interesting to note that there is a political twist to the story: infant baptism was used by the secular government for tax registration, so this may have been a tax protest in disguise! If Christians had not allowed Caesar to meddle in the affairs of the church, perhaps we would not have the controversy over infant baptism today.)

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[This message has been edited by primrose (edited 2/13/2009 11:21p).]

[This message has been edited by primrose (edited 2/13/2009 11:23p).]

Thad -There is a big difference between the influence or witness of the Holy Spirit and the "Gift of the Holy Spirit".

[This message has been edited by diamond4 (edited 2/13/2009 11:28p).]

ps, josietoo,

You know whose name I expected to see at the bottom of your post!

Lone Stranger.

Please exegete Acts 2:28-39.

I don't know how it gets any clearer. Baptism...is for your children and 'those far off'-which literally means infants.

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In the Bible, I only see believers getting baptized, that's it, no others.

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Luke 18:[15] Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
[16] But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
[17] Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."



It would seem that infants are indeed believers, or they wouldn't get into heaven...

[This message has been edited by Thaddeus73 (edited 2/14/2009 2:51p).]

In the end, it doesnt matter. Baptism doesnt get you into heaven any moreso than doing good works or going to church. Only one thing saves your eternal soul.

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Luke 18:[15] Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
[16] But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.
[17] Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it."

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I looked but did not see the word baptize anywhere.

Seamaster, I will look into the Acts reference. Thanks.

"Texags - the place where child models and Mormons come to debate baptism"

I didn't have time to read the whole thread, but I believe the OP is wrong on this Biblically. I feel the Bible clearly does NOT advocate infant baptism. It advocates baptism FOLLOWING conversion.

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If Baptism is really just a symbol than what is the harm in applying it to infants?

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Because that symbol is symbolizing belief. Infants do not have belief.

I don't understand what people think infant baptism does. Does it save? No. Faith does. Is it necessary to get to heaven? No. If it doesn't save and it isn't a prerequisite for heaven, then why do it? If you think it does save, then that makes me question if you understand the Gospel.

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I didn't have time to read the whole thread, but I believe the OP is wrong on this Biblically. I feel the Bible clearly does NOT advocate infant baptism.

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Watty,

If you have the time I'd love for you to address the arguements I made in the original post.

Infants apparently have more faith than adults. Otherwise, the Kingdom of Heaven wouldn't belong to them.

When my kids were infants they had a lot of faith in me, to feed them, to clothe them, to make sure they had a warm bed to sleep in. And apparently Jesus says that they have the faith to enter the Kingdom of God.

Luke 18:15 Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
[16] But Jesus called them to him, saying, "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

Sea- I'll try to give a longer response (and see what else everyone else has said) tonight. Thanks

Seamaster, I assume that this is the passage portion that is an infant baptism reference:

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The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.

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In context, I believe Jesus is promising salvation to all who receive it and follow in baptism, but the reference is to children. I still see no clear reference to saving, baby baptism. That is a bit of a stretch.

I am still looking for clarity. We are talking about salvation.

Acts 2:39

children -- teknon
"offspring, children"

afar off -- makran
"far, a great way; far hence" (Thayer)
"a great distance" (Strong)

Which one of these means "infant?"

[This message has been edited by LevelAg (edited 2/16/2009 2:43p).]

LevelAg.

Luke 1:59 - see that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies.

Sea- I read the thread, but before I make a longer response, I need to understand what you think infant baptism does.

In as simple terms as you can, tell me what the benefit to the infant is if he is baptized. How does a baptized infant differ from a non-baptized infant?

[This message has been edited by watty (edited 2/16/2009 4:06p).]

watty,

Its hard to summarize what I believe about baptism in a short phrase.

But here is a summary.

(Note....I framed my argument, however, in such a way that a Protestant who believes in infant baptism (more than half of them do) could agree with it.

[This message has been edited by Seamaster (edited 2/16/2009 4:25p).]

Wow, that's long.

Do you believe that the baptized infant is headed for heaven and the unbaptized infant is not?

Actually in the interest of time, I guess I'll say this.

I'm not a Catholic, and I fundamentally disagree with many of the Catholic teachings. I think many of them are completely extrabiblical.

Infant baptism is one of them. I know you are very well read and educated so to be honest, I'm sure you've heard the disagreements I would present. I know my mind won't be changed and I have a pretty good feeling yours won't either.

Even for protestants who agree with infant baptism though, I wonder what it is exactly that they think that baptism accomplishes. Is an unbaptized baby any different than a baptized one?

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Do you believe that the baptized infant is headed for heaven and the unbaptized infant is not?

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I believe that baptized babies who die go to heaven. Unbaptized babies can also go to heaven.

For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. For this reason the Church celebrates each year at the Easter Vigil the renewal of baptismal promises. Preparation for Baptism leads only to the threshold of new life. Baptism is the source of that new life in Christ from which the entire Christian life springs forth.

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism.

Luke 1:59 uses the word "paidion" which means "a child of recent birth."

And, Acts 21:21 allows us to understand the age associated with these "children" by the context speaking of circumcision under the Old Law (8 days).

If consistency is to be observed in interpreting and understanding God's word in context, the "children" in Acts 2:38-39 must be able to repent prior to being baptized and receiving the promise. Can your infant do that (without a surrogate or community doing it for them)?

Level Ag.

One more time. Acts 21:21 uses the word "Teknon" for infants.

Acts 2:38-39 uses the same exact word.

Speaking of circumcision...who was circumcised?