Infant Baptism Manifesto

3,424 Views | 262 Replies | Last: 17 yr ago by Texas velvet maestro
Seamaster
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My sister and her husband have been attending a Baptist Church in Washington state for about a year. They want to join the church, because they say they cannot find a good Reformed church, but the church won't let them join until they are baptized. Of course, both of them are baptized but were baptized as infants and the Baptist church says that this doesn't count.

They have been struggleing with this issue and she asked me to send them an email outlining the scriptural basis for infant baptism. I thought I'd share my response with TexAgs.com and get cheers from the papists, lutherans, methodists and reformed and jeers from the credo baptists.

***

OK. I'll try to be as brief as possible and not ramble.

First let me discuss what the Baptists believe and why.

As you know, the Baptists believe that only people who profess faith in Jesus should be baptized. They believe that since babies cannot profess faith that they should not be baptized. They base this understanding on passages such as Acts 8:12,36,37 and interpret that this must mean that one must have faith and receive the word before being baptized. They also base this on the fact that there is no explicit instruction in the bible that says, "Baptize babies too." Furthermore, they don't view baptism itself as being for the remission of sins (like Catholics) nor do they view it as entry into the Covenant (like the Reformed and Catholic). Baptists believe that baptism is just a symbol but a symbol that should only be applied to people old enough to literally profess faith in Jesus.

Why is this view wrong? For several reasons. First let me explain why it is logically wrong and then I'll discuss why it is biblically wrong.

It is interesting that Baptists apply such a restrictive understanding to baptism. It is interesting because if the Baptists were consistent with applying that same standard of interpretation to the rest of the bible than they would be forced to exclude babies from salvation altogether. This is because the Bible also never says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation except for infants"; it simply says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation." Yet Baptists must admit there is an exception for infants unless they wish to condemn instantaneously all infants to hell. So, on the one hand Baptists are willing to make an exception to the plain words of scripture and grant that babies can be saved without explicit faith in Jesus. On the other hand they reverse themselves by saying that babies cannot be baptized without explicit faith in Jesus.

If a Baptist says, "Where does the bible say that babies should be baptized?" I answer, "Where does the bible say that children not old enough to have faith in Jesus, which is necessary for salvation, go to heaven?" The point is that Baptists make the same exception to scripture that those that practice infant baptism make! So, it's a little disingenuous for them to act as if they are applying the correct interpretation of scripture.

Furthermore, what do Baptists do with mentally retarded adults? Does the mentally retarded adult child of a Baptist family never receive the outpouring of Grace in baptism because they are incapable of literally professing faith in Jesus with their mouths? That is unthinkable!

Now onto the bible itself. It is true that the bible never explicitly says, "Baptize infants." However, if one follows the covenantal narrative of the redemption story it is clear that baptism is more than just a symbol and that it applies to the entire families of the believers.

There are many passages that convey this truth but I think the strongest passage is the following:

In Acts 2:39 Peter is speaking and he says, 'The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.'

What promise is Peter talking about?

The preceding verse, Acts 2:38, explains what the promise is; Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'

So, Peter says to be baptized 'every one of you' and 'this promise includes your children.'

The actual Greek word that is used in Acts 2:39 is 'teknon' which literally means 'infants.'

Perhaps the biggest problem with the Baptist position is that they completely miss the covenant theology that is engrained in the redemption story. This is why they reject the simple fact that circumcision applied to infants as an entry into the covenant (Gen. 17:12) and Paul says then says that baptism is the new circumcision (Col 2:11-12). Paul does not say, "but don't baptize infants like you did with circumcision." If you were reading Paul's letter in AD 60 and you were Jewish converts to the Christian Church and he said, "Baptism is the new circumcision" you would automatically assume that baptism applied to infants.

The bible never says to restrict baptism to only people old enough to make a profession. It simply doesn't. Taking that stance means that you have to completely ignore covenantal theology which is clearly biblical (Hebrews 7, 8 and 9). We know about the Old Covenant which was entered by circumcision of infants. Paul says that baptism is the new circumcision.

There are, as you know, about four examples in the bible as well were it says that entire households were baptized. Obviously, it could be that those examples simply did not have any kids but that is doubtful. Birth control wasn't very effective back then thank goodness.

Lastly, we must look at how the church has always interpreted this matter. If you accept the Baptist interpretation than you have to believe that every single Christian Church father from AD 33 – about 1650 got baptism wrong and that the Anabaptists somehow discovered the true interpretation of baptism.

Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that "according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants" (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 A.D. 244). To put that in perspective, the canon of scripture itself was not canonized until AD 390! Over 100 years before we knew what the News Testament books were we have Church teaching that baptism applies to infants.

The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 A.D. 408).

Augustine, a pillar of the Catholic Church and perhaps the most revered Church Father in the Reformed Churches says that infant baptism is from the apostles themselves!

Now, Baptists are correct when the say that adult converts should be baptized. Obviously we and the Reformed and other Protestants baptize adults who convert as well as infants.

In conclusion:

1) The restrictive interpretation they use for baptism leads them to believe that all babies go hell.
2) To fix that obvious problem they invent a completely unbiblical and out of left field doctrine called the "age of accountability."
3) There is very strong scripture that teaches that the promise of baptism applies to infants.
4) Paul says that baptism is the new circumcision and circumcision applied to infants.
5) Entire households were baptized based on the faith of the head of the household.
6) The testimony of the Christian Church has always held to infant baptism and even today the Baptist credo baptism view is the minority view.

I love Baptists but they are just wrong. Its really silly if you think about it. If Baptism is really just a symbol than what is the harm in applying it to infants?

Hope that helps.

***

The preceding is about as concise as I can be on the matter.
Texas velvet maestro
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Thanks for that.
My opinion is that sincere decisions always trump ritual and religiosity, but I don't believe there is harm in baptizing babies or dedicating them to The Church. It is always fun for the parents and congregation. IMO infant baptism certainly doesn't guarantee anything, but it is harmless.

I always chuckled when they made a big deal about christenings on the Sopranos.

As for folks under the age of accountability, and the mentally retarded and so forth, don't you feel that God can handle that stuff? and that whatever we decide to do based upon our various interpretations of scripture...is just ritual, with some divisive potential?
Seamaster
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quote:
As for folks under the age of accountability, and the mentally retarded and so forth, don't you feel that God can handle that stuff?


Of course I do. But the bible doesn't make exception to the mentally retarded or babies.

diehard03
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I think that infant baptism + confirmation is the same as adult baptism. Therefore, I question the salvation of infant baptism (as I think without confirmation, it's useless).

Now, my question is why no baptism on earth must equal going to hell? The way I see it, if someone dies before baptism or is mentally unable to grasp the concept of God, then God will determine what to do. That's it. God had to send his holy spirit for someone to be saved, so why we think that we have to do anything to compensate for these cases is silly.

The only case I can see for baptizing someone who doesn't grasp the concept is the one in Acts where an entire family is baptized for the faith of the father. But even still, all these denominations have confirmation that have infant baptism. If infant baptism was enough, what's the point of confirmation?

(BTW, i think it's stupid that a church won't honor someone other denominations baptism.)
Texas velvet maestro
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The Bible makes an exception for believers who haven't been baptized.




[This message has been edited by Texas velvet maestro (edited 2/12/2009 11:31a).]
Seamaster
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diehard,

I agree that baptism of desire (where baptism isn't possible) is a situation where God can obviously still save somebody. That is church teaching.

Confirmation is a different sacrament altogether. We don't believe that confirmation is for the remission of sins like we do for baptism.

Here is where confirmation comes from:

Acts 8:14-17 "Now, when the apostles, who were in Jerusalem, had heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John. Who, when they were come, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirt. For he was not as yet come upon any of them: but they were only baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands upon them: and they received the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption."

More.

But I can see your point of view.
Seamaster
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quote:
The Bible makes an exception for believers who haven't been baptized.


What are you refering to here?
Texas velvet maestro
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Luke 23:43

Today you will be with me in paradise
94chem
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Regardless of one's view, rebaptism is flat wrong. Read Calvin, "On the Validity of Romish Baptism" for starters.

I prefer Believer's baptism, but since I was baptized as an infant, that is not an option for me, since in order to do so, I would in effect be rejecting the covenantal aspects of baptism that are clearly laid out in scripture.

I certainly have no regard for the "regenerative" position held by Catholics and many Lutherans, but forcing rebaptism is just as unbiblical as not being baptized at all.

[This message has been edited by 94chem (edited 2/12/2009 11:39a).]
diehard03
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Sea,

Just out of curiosity, does someone who gets baptized as an infant, but not confirmed still retain "remission of sin"?

I don't want to stray too far from the topic.
diehard03
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quote:
I certainly have no regard for the "regenerative" position held by Catholics and many Lutherans, but forcing rebaptism is just as unbiblical as not being baptized at all.


I agree...being baptized Catholic, confirmed Methodist, and attending a non-denominational church, I've had several discussions with people trying to get me to be re-baptized.
94chem
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Grace Bible Church in CS used to force re-baptism in order to join. I could never be a member there. I hope they have since moved away from that position, but I don't know. It's funny, 'cause they have tons of older members who were baptized as babies - they just never got asked the question about baptism until some former SBC elder started running things.
94chem
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One large SBC church I know says, "We baptize believers by immersion, since it's the way Jesus was baptized." I wonder if these otherwise gifted and brilliant leaders even think before they write this stuff.
TechDiver
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I don't completely follow your line of logic here, and probably need to re-read it.

And it's been a LONG time since I've been a member of a Baptist congregation, so I don't want to pretend to speak authoritatively on Baptist doctrine, because I'm not an authority.

That said, I think there's a disconnect in what I think you are arguing:

That is the idea that baptism=salvation.

I may be wrong, but I don't think Baptists believe that.

I think Baptists view baptism as a symbolic and outward sign of an inward change - not as having salvific value in and of itself, and not as a sacramental dispensation of grace.

As I understand it, Baptist view baptism as necessary because it serves as a public testimony of faith, but nothing more.

Let's say, for example, that a guy comes to know and accept Jesus as lord in a baptist congregation, and so he schedules his baptism for week after next. Only the next day, he gets t-boned by a semi coming home from work, and is killed before he can be baptised.

I don't think the Baptists believe that guy is destined for hell.

So I think there is a fundamental disconnect in your argument and baptist belief. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am.

As it relates to infants or mentally retarded or whatever other people might or might not be saved that aren't baptised or don't know (or haven't had the opportunity to know) Jesus, I don't know what Baptist doctrine says of those situations.

Texas velvet maestro
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quote:
As I understand it, Baptist view baptism as necessary because it serves as a public testimony of faith, but nothing more.


as a christian who is a member of a baptist church I can tell you that this is true. Even more simply put, baptism is encouraged because Jesus did it.
diamond4
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Some additional things for you to consider, not to mention the fact that baptism is for the remission of sins and requires faith and then repentance, all of which an infant is incapable of!


Professor Alland stated that "It can be no accident ... that all of our information about the existence of infant baptism comes from the period between 220 and 250 AD ... For the time before this we do not possess a single piece of information that gives concrete testimony to the existence of infant baptism ... To this day (1963) nobody can prove an actual case of the baptism of an infant in the period before 200 AD ... That our entire sources, at least when allowed their literal sense, have in view only the baptism of adults, or at best the baptism of older children, can as little be contested."

The foregoing conclusion was also reached by Menno Simon (1496-1561), one of the reformers of a group known as the Anabaptists, who wrote: "Since, then, we do not find in all scripture a single word by which Christ has ordained the baptism of infants, or that His apostles taught and practiced it, we say and confess rightly that infant baptism is but a human invention, an opinion of men a perversion of the ordinance of Christ. Martin Luther concurred: "It cannot be proved by the sacred Scriptures, that infant baptism was instituted by Christ or begun by the first Christians (sic) after the apostles. John Winebrenner, an ardent student on the subject, summarized it well when he said: "While from the earliest period, the baptism of believers appears on every page of history, her voice is dumb respecting infant baptism for two hundred years after Christ. Throughout the Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles, and all of the writings of the Fathers, down to Tertullian (140-230 AD), there is not even an allusion to this subject." Will Durant knew that infant baptism was not an ordinance in Christ's primitive Church. He wrote, "The old custom of deferring baptism to the later years of life had now been replaced by infant baptism."

[This message has been edited by diamond4 (edited 2/12/2009 11:59a).]
diamond4
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Texas Velvet -The scripure you quoted has nothing to do with "salvation" as you think of it. It simply refers to which part of the spirit world the spirit of the dead thief would dwell until the resureection. During the time now and through the millenium, baptisms will be performed for all who have ever lived, regardless of the kingdom of glory they wil have qualified for.
TechDiver
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Bob, with due respect, the topic of this thread is about Baptist doctrine concerning infant baptism.

The Mormon perspective on this is not topical.
diamond4
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Fine TechDriver, but everyone should take an honest look at when infant baptism came about and just as important, why it came about. It is a man made doctrine.
Texas velvet maestro
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ibm, I'll just read the scripture and interpret it myself, thanks. I think The Book was written for me.

I fully understand that salvation without ritual and works makes it harder for humans to judge one another, and it certainly does not inspire slavish devotion to Smithian-type sects and their various hoops to jump through.
TechDiver
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quote:
(BTW, i think it's stupid that a church won't honor someone other denominations baptism.)


I do too.
diamond4
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Velvet - That is fine but I am sure you are familiar with the following scripture:

2 Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Of course your view is why we have well over 500 different Christian sects of varying sizes.
boboguitar
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quote:

Of course your view is why we have well over 500 different Christian sects of varying sizes.


Hard to say we when you're not a christian.
Gone
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I only have one problem with it:

quote:
There are, as you know, about four examples in the bible as well where it says that entire households were baptized. Obviously, it could be that those examples simply did not have any kids but that is doubtful. Birth control wasn't very effective back then thank goodness.


You put "were" and it should have been "where."

All kidding aside, it was a great write up. Very solid biblical and logical arguements.
Texas velvet maestro
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"any private interpretation."

the mormon interpretation is much more exclusive and private then my interpretation which is shared by multitudes of christians.
Seamaster
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quote:
Just out of curiosity, does someone who gets baptized as an infant, but not confirmed still retain "remission of sin"?



Remission of sin is a lifelong event that includes repentance and becoming holy and conformed to Christ's image. I suppose that it is possible without confirmation.
Seamaster
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I didn't mention it but regarding so called 're-baptism.'

I have heard that some Baptist churches will re-baptize people even if they were baptized as adults if it wasn't a Baptist church where they were Baptized.

Doesn't Church of Christ belive in credo Baptism only and it literally must be at a Church of Christ?
Seamaster
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quote:
For the time before this we do not possess a single piece of information that gives concrete testimony to the existence of infant baptism ... To this day (1963) nobody can prove an actual case of the baptism of an infant in the period before 200 AD ...


Diamond4. Do you want me to demonstrate that not one belief particular to the LDS was held by anybody prior to 1838? Would that prove the LDS as false? I didn't know you put so much weight in the early church history.

BTW, we find evidence of infant baptism at least 150 years prior to the New Testament being canonized.
SWOSU
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quote:
Doesn't Church of Christ belive in credo Baptism only and it literally must be at a Church of Christ?
You can't lump all CoC congregations under one umbrella, just like you can't lump all Baptist congregations under one umbrella. Some do, some don't. Some even expect re-baptism of a person transferring membership from ANOTHER congregation of Baptists/CoCs. But those are few and far between.

My hometown of Lake Jackson (population <30K) has at least 5 or 6 congregations calling themselves CoC. They usually won't recognize each other as bona fide Christian, since each one practices something that the others think is sin ... like having Sunday School classes, a kitchen in the church building, A/C, PA systems, and other such paraphernalia.
procrastinating on texags
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To start off, I am not baptist and nothing I say should be taken as the baptist point of view or doctrine. I do not believe there is a biblical basis for infant baptism.

quote:
they completely miss the covenant theology that is engrained in the redemption story. This is why they reject the simple fact that circumcision applied to infants as an entry into the covenant (Gen. 17:12) and Paul says then says that baptism is the new circumcision (Col 2:11-12)


I agree with the covenant theology of baptism. Before Christ circumcision was the Jew’s way to enter into the covenant. After Christ baptism is the way enter into the covenant and to become a member of Christ’s church. I do not, however, follow the link between circumcision on the 8th day and baptism of infants.

quote:
Lastly, we must look at how the church has always interpreted this matter. If you accept the Baptist interpretation than you have to believe that every single Christian Church father from AD 33 – about 1650 got baptism wrong and that the Anabaptists somehow discovered the true interpretation of baptism.


Excuse my ignorance if I am wrong, but I have never seen any writing about infant baptism before A.D. 200 or so. Furthermore, church tradition does not have a huge influence on my belief. Col 12:8 “ 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”

quote:
The restrictive interpretation they use for baptism leads them to believe that all babies go hell.


I think this is a stretch. Sin causes damnation. I do not believe in original sin (I think that is another thread all together). I do not believe that an un-baptized infant goes to hell.

For those who believe in infant baptism, do un-baptized babies go to hell? What about aborted babies?...this is a serious question and I have never received a strait forward answer regarding the subject. I have heard Concordia Lutheran seminary lectures that insinuate that they do in fact go to hell.

quote:
To fix that obvious problem they invent a completely unbiblical and out of left field doctrine called the "age of accountability."


I don’t understand where the age of accountability comes from either. I have never found a biblical basis for it and do not believe it is necessary that one believes in it to believe in a believers baptism.

quote:
credo baptism view is the minority view


The fact that something is the minority view does not inherently make it incorrect; therefore I do not pu a lot of stock in it when forming an opinion.


quote:
Doesn't Church of Christ belive in credo Baptism only and it literally must be at a Church of Christ?


I grew up in the church of Christ and have attended many in my life. As you may know, no two ‘churches of Christ’ will be exactly the same. Of the congregations I have attended, I do not know any that require that the baptism be at a church of Christ. I know many people who were baptized in other churches, swimming pools, rivers, etc who were members of a church of Christ. There may very well be some congregations that do require that their members be baptized in a church of Christ, but sadly there may also congregations that believe that their congregation is the only one going to heaven! Again, that is another topic all together. On the other hand, I would say that about half of the congregations I have attended would require a believer’s baptism for membership.


I believe that my main argument against infant baptism is that there is no basis for it apart from original sin and catholic tradition. As I stated before, I believe that discussion requires another thread. Can someone answer my previous questions and delineate the arguments for infant baptism apart from original sin and catholic tradition? I look forward to gaining a further understanding of your point of view. If anything I say shows ignorance, please point me in the right direction!

Sorry for the long post.

Texas velvet maestro
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quote:
I have heard that some Baptist churches will re-baptize people even if they were baptized as adults if it wasn't a Baptist church where they were Baptized.


Yes. This is an option, but I have never seen it really encouraged. I have seen this kind of re-baptism especially in cases where an individual was baptized before(as a teenager for instance), but felt that the previous baptism was less than sincere or possibly done with a minimum of understanding, maybe as a result of peer pressure, or striving to meet the expectations of their parents, etc...

I know a guy who did it again, he told me this privately, because he wanted his daughter to see him baptized so she wouldn't be scared of the experience.

Best baptism scene in a movie:
Tender Mercies w/ Robert Duvall
quote:
Sonny- “Well, we done it, Mack. We’ve been baptized. Everybody says I’m going to feel like a changed person. I guess I do feel a little bit different. But, you know what, I don’t feel a whole lot different. Do you?”

“Not yet, Not yet.”

“Well, do I look any different? You don’t look any different.”

“Not yet, Sonny, not yet.”
Seamaster
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procrastinating on texags,

quote:
I do not, however, follow the link between circumcision on the 8th day and baptism of infants.


Circumcision was given to infants. If Paul says that Baptism is the new circumcision than why wouldn’t it be given to infants?

quote:
Excuse my ignorance if I am wrong, but I have never seen any writing about infant baptism before A.D. 200 or so.


You also will not see most Christian doctrines and practices written about before AD 200. What survives from that period is pretty sparse. You certainly won’t find anything about the Trinity before AD 200. Do you accept the Trinity?

quote:
Furthermore, church tradition does not have a huge influence on my belief. Col 12:8 “ 8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.”


Not all tradition is bad. Elsewhere Paul says to follow the tradition that was passed onto us. 1 Cor. 11:2

quote:
I do not believe in original sin (I think that is another thread all together).


It probably is a different topic altogether.

quote:
For those who believe in infant baptism, do un-baptized babies go to hell? What about aborted babies?...this is a serious question and I have never received a strait forward answer regarding the subject.


I cannot speak for everybody but the Catholic Church teaches that unbaptized ‘holy innocents’ can taste salvation. There has also been a theory (and I emphasize that it’s a theory) about a place that is not fully heaven but pleasant where unbaptized children went. This was called ‘limbus’ in Latin and ‘limbo’ in English.
diehard03
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quote:
Remission of sin is a lifelong event that includes repentance and becoming holy and conformed to Christ's image. I suppose that it is possible without confirmation.


I agree with your first sentence. However, what role does baptism do in the remission of sin?
Seamaster
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quote:
However, what role does baptism do in the remission of sin?



Acts2:38
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Acts 22:16
And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’
diamond4
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Velvet -I should have gone ahead and quoted you the next verse for that is the role of Apostles and Prophets. It is called revelation as in ancient times which is what was restored when God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to the boy Joseph.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 
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