TechDiver - Sorry, about your experience. From what I have read about Masonic funerals (I have yet to attend one, that I am aware of) and from what you say somebody f***ed up on the Mason's end. That is not how it should have worked out. The service is meant to be poingnant and if you listen to what is said (and no part of it, that I can think off of the top of my head is private) it has the potential to impact how you live your life.

Quite right, denied, it's not private as the litany is spoken publically. It is meant to be a positive experience for the departed and for the grieving family.

So to come back to the topic at hand, why does an organization that proclaims itself to be "not a religion" read a litany at a funeral?

Not intended as a flame... I'm interested in understanding, and I don't.

If you'll please pardon my skepticism, I'm not aware of another social organization that has a litany/liturgy that is conducted at funerals.

Other organizations do. Perhaps litany is too strong. There is a formal ceremony for Masonic funerals. We have a lengthy speech from the Master Mason that is a positive message for the departed and the family left behind.

Terata, could you provide some examples of other social or non-religious organizations that perform a similar ceremony at a funeral?

I can't think of any.

I'll do a search for you.

http://elks823.com/

The woodcutters do. The U.S. government does. I am sure there are others.

http://www.portlanddiocese.net/

The KC is the Catholic Fraternal Order.

[This message has been edited by terata (edited 12/3/2007 5:01p).]

maybe it would help if some of us knew the difference between:

Mason
Freemason
Shriner
Arabia Temple
York Rite

Maybe the Church is suspicious of their (supposed )connection with the Knights Templars.

Isn't the boy's lodge named after Jacques De Molay, the last Grand Master of the Knights templars?

Mason - a member of the faternal organization commonly known as Masonry or Freemasonry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
Freemason - see above
Shriner - a body that predicates membership upon being a Master Mason (considered by some Masonic scholars to not be masonic as it does not confer Masonic degrees or orders)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shriner
Arabia Temple - the Shrine body that is located in Houston
York Rite - an appendant organization of Masonry that confers degrees and predicates membership upon being a Master Mason (one of the bodies that comprises this Rite predicates membership upon being a Christian) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rite

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Maybe the Church is suspicious of their (supposed )connection with the Knights Templars.

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a) I think most realistic men within the Catholic Church that makes these types of decisions does not believe Masonry to have an actual link to the Knights Templars.

b) Why would this be a problem as the Knights Templars were a Catholic order?

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Isn't the boy's lodge named after Jacques De Molay, the last Grand Master of the Knights templars.

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The male youth organization that is recognized by many Grand Lodges is named after Jacques DeMolay and it is so named because members are encouraged to model their conduct after his example of loyalty and fidelity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeMolay_International



[This message has been edited by denied (edited 12/3/2007 10:59p).]

Thanks, denied.
I, too wondered about the Templars-Catholic connection, but I think at the end, thanks to a king of France, the Pope turned on them, and they were excommunicated.

That was a very clear explanation of the different terms. I understand a lot better now.

Thanks for the links and explanations guys.

Out of curiosity, and if you can explain, why are the rituals/practices so secretive? Or more specifically, what purpose does the secret nature of the Masons serve/how does it benefit those that are Masons?

TechDriver,

I don't mean this to sound harsh but do you get that something can be secretive and private without being evil or bad? You know that fraternities and sororities have "secret" ceremonies and rituals? Do you belong to any organizations? If so, would you just allow anyone off the street to come and sit in on your business meetings or board meetings?

Here's a link to the thread where many of us hashed out much of this.

Feel free to ask any specific questions you have. If you live in College Station many of us would be happy to show you around the lodge room, etc.

http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?forum_id=15&topic_id=697981

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Out of curiosity, and if you can explain, why are the rituals/practices so secretive? Or more specifically, what purpose does the secret nature of the Masons serve/how does it benefit those that are Masons?

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I think this goes back to when people were persecuted for meeting, and when gatherings were strictly controlled by the government (especially when the organization was a proponent of democracy). By meeting in secret you could meet without fear of being discovered, especially if all of your members were sworn to secrecy.

These days I think, as a recent initiate, the candidate gets a better experience if they are unaware of what is about to happen. There is a better opportunity for discovery in your actual degree, and it also makes the mistakes by the degree team less noticeable. Ultimately our secrets have gotten out in accurate detail.

In the end you have to think, how many greek letter fraternities/sororities have secret initiation rituals? How much of what is done in the Corps goes unpublished?

denied and Samsill are doing a very good job of explaining the subject of this thread in context. Kudos to you both!

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b) Why would this be a problem as the Knights Templars were a Catholic order?

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This is true, but after the Knights Templars got very rich, the Pope changed his tune, confiscated some of their monies, then turned it over to the Knights Hospitallers. Since, the 14th century there has been no known organized Knights Templars per se, only speculation as to whether they morphed into Masons.

The Masons and many Catholic charities share the same goals. One has wonder why the Catholic Church is still so sticky regarding FreeeMasons.

Thanks Terata. I went back to that other thread I linked to find the issue of why the Catholic Church is so anti-Mason. According to the Catholic site posted by Texasag73 (where are you dude?) it's a matter of Indifferenism.

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Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity because it promotes indifferentism. Indifferentism is the heretical belief that all religions are equally legitimate attempts to explain the truth about God which, but for the truth of His existence, are unexplainable.

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The fact the Catholic Church is against Masonry because they promote an environment where people of different faiths can come together, meet, and share experiences on how to be a better man, father, and citizen without arguing or fighting the points of their religion is sad to me. But not surprising.

As for the Templars. You should read the book Born in Blood by John Robinson. It's about the peasants revolt in England and the possible connection to Templars and Masons. It's a great read and at the time he wrote the book he wasn't a Mason. Before his death he openly admitted that he had no proof for his claims but that it made a good story.

When the Templars were attacked by the King of France and the Pope the Templar treasury and naval fleet were never found. This has lead to much speculation over the years. While it would be the coolest thing ever if we were the descendants of the Templars, it's just not the case. The reason the Catholic Church is anti-Mason is simple and it doesn't have anything to do with the Templars. We allow people of other faiths to join and we don't shove Jesus Christ down their throat 24/7. It's just that easy.

Another point we covered in the other thread that applies here regarding "secrets" and ceremonies, etc. is the fact that the Boy Scouts have various parts with secret ceremonies, etc. The Order of the Arrow (OA) for instance is an organization with the BSA that has several levels of membership with ceremonies based in Indian lore. It is highly rumored to have been based on Masonic ritual and if you've ever gone through all the ceremonies in both (which I have) it's pretty clear someone involved in starting the OA was a Mason.

terata - What I said about the Catholic Church having a problem with Templars was said somewhat in jest.

In all honesty the Catholic Church had no real problem with the Templars. The problem was that Philip IV (the Fair) was greatly in debt to the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (commonly referred to as the Knights Templar) at the beginning of the 14th century. With the Crusaders having lost the Holy Lands, the military purpose for the Knights Templar effectively ceased. So the King of France found himself in debt to a large order whose purpose had ceased, that enjoyed the protection of the Vatican.

So, what is the best way for the King of France to make his debt go away? Make the order go away. How do you accomplish this? Pressure the Pope (Clement V) to disband the order.

This also was a political move on the part of Philip, in addition to being a monetary move. The Knights Templar were showing an interest in creating a monastic state, as the Teutonic Knights and the Knights Hospitalier had done. Where would they have done it? Where the bulk of their lands were, France.

So ultimately Philip needed the Knights Templar to go away because he risked bankruptcy and the loss of part of his kingdom. It was not because of any actual heretical thing that the Order did that lost them the protection of the Vatican, but a tyrants greed.

In truth though, the Catholic Church has no perceived notion of a link between modern Freemasonry and the Knights Templar and the Knights Templar were actually absolved in 1308 for their alleged crimes before being dissolved in 1312.

[This message has been edited by denied (edited 12/4/2007 4:58p).]

Terata, I hope I'm not hi-jacking the thread, but, the Hospitallers were different from the Templars? And who were the Knights of Malta, the Knights of St. John, the Knights of the Holy Sepulcher, and do any survive to this day?

tia

or Denied, whoever wants to answer.

For the record, I was a Demolay, Master Counselor of Mother Chapter Alpha in Kansas City, recipient of the Degree of Chevalier, and I personally knew Frank S. "Dad" Land and Harold Bergstreser. Later I became a Mason.

I found nothing in either of those organizations that was inimical to the aims of any mainstream religion. Perhaps the secret nature of the ceremonies has led to suspicion and mistrust. There is no animosity toward any religion from within these organizatins.

You know, this reminds me of when my brothers and all my boy cousins would start a "club". Everything about it was secret, even when and where they met.

Maybe it's just a guy thing.

I don't know about the others, but the Knights of Malta still exist today:

http://www.smom.org/

[This message has been edited by OceanStateAg (edited 12/4/2007 10:41p).]

Doesn't the Catholic College of Cardinals meet in secret when they choose a new Pope?

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You know, this reminds me of when my brothers and all my boy cousins would start a "club". Everything about it was secret, even when and where they met.

Maybe it's just a guy thing.

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That is exactly what it is.

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who were the Knights of Malta, the Knights of St. John, the Knights of the Holy Sepulcher, and do any survive to this day?

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The Hospitallers are more acurately known as the Sovereign Order of Saint John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, and are referred to as Knights Hospitallers, Knights of Malta, Order of St. John, Knights of St. John, Knights of Rhodes, or Chevaliers of Malta.

Their history began with the founding of a hospital to care for the poor and sick pilgrims in Jerusalem in 1088. When the Holy Lands fell they operated out of Rhodes, where they were sovereign; then later on Malta where they were a vassal state of Spain.

When Napolean captured Malta in 1798 they ceased to exist, although they have succesor organizations. The most notable of these is the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem, of Rhodes and of Malta which was the 1834 revival of the former. They are a Catholic order, sovereign under international law, and possessing permenant observer status within the UN.

As for the Knights of the Sepulchre. They are the lowest rank of the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem. This is another Catholic chivalric order that traces its lineage to Godfrey of Bouillon. It is believed to have started as a confraternity of clerical and lay pilgrims. When the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem was reestablished in 1847, it was the Order of the Holy Sepulchre which was given the control. It too is considered sovereign under international law and enjoys permanent oberserver status with the UN.

[This message has been edited by denied (edited 12/4/2007 11:27p).]

Really interesting. Really.
My grandaughter was in Rhodes this past summer and said the castle was impressive to say the least.
It is now a series of shops, kind of like a mall/flea-market.
well, thanks again. I could never have figured all that out, and it's good to see that some things last.

What an honor it must be to belong to something so old and with such a gloried and romantic past.

thanks, again

I was going to jump in here, but Samsill and denied seem to be doing a great job.

I will add a few things:

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2nd - Freemasons actively reject the Pope - as Catholics, we believe in the direct line of Popes, and that it is the throne of Peter, that the authority lies in the Pope. Being a member of a masonic order requires that you reject this, and is therefor incompatible with Catholicism

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As far as I know, the Masons do not "actively reject the Pope." There is a belief (among non-masons) that we do not allow Catholics to join. However, this is not true.

For what it is worth....

Nice catch 99

I personally reject the spiritual authority of the Pope; however, I view him as a wise world leader who provides spiritual insight. Also, I am not a member of any organization that rejects his authority, spiritual or otherwise.