Just wondering, seriously.

freemasons is a religious group. It has some weird stuff that I don't believe much of their membership knows about. I am sure you could google it and get more and better info than Texags will give.

what "weird stuff". All I find is interwebtube sites that say very general stuff like "weird stuff the bulk of their membership doesn't know", but then fails to unveil it.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masindx.htm

I found this pretty quick. I have a tract at home that I will look at as well.

quote:

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"That which we must say to the crowd is - We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition.

"To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees - The Masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian Doctrine.

"If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay (The God of the Christians) whose deeds prove his cruelty, perfidy and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him?

"Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods: darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive.

"Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil." (Instructions to the 23 Supreme Councils of the World, Albert Pike, Grand Commander, Sovereign Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry, July 14, 1889. Recorded by A.C. De La Rive, La Femme et l'Enfant dans la Franc-Maconnerie Universelle, page 588)

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I have not studied this info, just posted so you can.

yeah, that was originated by Taxil and discredited
here http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/DeHoyos.htm#i9

and in the New Catholic Encyclopedia:

quote:

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Taxil purported to reveal the existence of "Palladium," the most secret Masonic order, which practiced devilworship. He recounted the story of its high priestess Diana Vaughan; and ended by publishing the M�moires d'une ex-Palladiste after her conversion to Catholicism. When doubts began to spread, Taxil realized the time had come to end the deceit. In a conference in Paris (April 19, 1897), he cynically admitted his hoax, whose aim, he said, was to hold up Catholicism to derision.

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I guess that I was just hoping that someone, presumably you, might have information that was not based on Leo Taxil's hoax.

[This message has been edited by ctp2nd (edited 11/29/2007 11:32a).]

The rest of the information on the web page I posted is distrubing as well. The quote I posted just stuck out.

The bible claims to be complete (2 Peter 1:3, Jude 3, II Tim 3:16, Rev 20ish, Deut 4ish, James 1:25, etc). I question anyone who claims otherwise as it appears they do.

As far as why the Catholic church rejects freemasonry -

it is for 2 major reasons -

1st - they just require that you believe in a god. Not God. - it accepts many different beliefs - which is civially acceptable - and may seem to mirror our freedom of religion that we love in America, but since it is a religious orginization - it is wrong for Christians to take part because "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
7 you shall have no other gods before me."

2nd - Freemasons actively reject the Pope - as Catholics, we believe in the direct line of Popes, and that it is the throne of Peter, that the authority lies in the Pope. Being a member of a masonic order requires that you reject this, and is therefor incompatible with Catholicism

quote:

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2nd - Freemasons actively reject the Pope - as Catholics, we believe in the direct line of Popes, and that it is the throne of Peter, that the authority lies in the Pope. Being a member of a masonic order requires that you reject this, and is therefor incompatible with Catholicism

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um. linky?

this is not a signature.

so...

1) men of differing faiths that meet together and/or form a group of said men and base membership upon being a good men and focus on trying to improve each other as men, is immediately denoted as bad? because they do not push particular religion on its membership and only requires that they are, in fact, religious in nature? From what I have read, and learned, Freemasonry doesn't offer any means of salvation. Instead it recommends its members to become scholars of their own particular faith and to search therein for the way to salvation. It doesn't sound so much like a religion as it does a way of life and fellowship.

2)Where is that found? I haven't read anything about them being anti-Pope. The closest thing I have seen to that, or anti-anything is that the Scottish Rite's dislike for totalitarianism in all forms. I mean, if someone was in a country that said that all citizens must be Catholic (or any other religion for that matter) or else face pentalty... Maybe then I could see them being anti-Religious totalitarianism... but even then, not anti-Pope. Just anti the oppressive government which took away the freewill given man by God.

my explaination was flawed - i appologize

this explains the church's position very well.

http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm

here's the text from the link above.

quote:

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The origins of the Masons, or what is officially called Freemasonry, are hard to pinpoint. With the decline of cathedral building in the aftermath of the Protestant movement, the guilds of masons began accepting non-masons as members to bolster their dwindling membership. Eventually, the non-masons outnumbered the masons, and the guilds became places for the discussion of ethics and morality while retaining the secret signs, symbols and gestures of the original guild. Four such guilds merged in 1717 in London, England, to form the Grand Lodge of Freemasons. (A "freemason" was highly skilled mason who enjoyed the privileges of membership in a trade guild.) The Masons then spread throughout the world.

Old "handbooks" of Freemasonry define the organization as "a peculiar system of morality veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols," "a science which is engaged in the search after the divine truth," and "the activity of closely united men who, employing symbolic forms borrowed principally from the mason's trade and others and thereby to bring about a universal league of mankind which they aspire to exhibit even now on a small scale."

James Anderson (d. 1739), a Scottish Presbyterian minister, wrote the <Book of Constitutions> in which he contrived the "traditional," albeit spurious, history of Freemasonry. Masons hold that God, "the Great Architect," founded Freemasonry, and that it has as patrons Adam and the Patriarchs. Even Jesus is listed as "the Grand Master" of the Christian Church. They credit themselves with the building of Noah's ark, the Tower of Babel, the pyramids and Solomon's Temple. In all, Freemasonry borrows liberally from the history and traditions of cultic groups such as Druids, Mithars, Egyptian priesthood, Rosicrucians and others to weave its own history.

The Catholic Church has difficulties with Freemasonry because it is indeed a kind of religion unto itself. The practice of Freemasonry includes temples, altars, a moral code, worship services, vestments, feast days, a hierarchy of leadership, initiation and burial rites, and promises of eternal reward and punishment. While in America most Masons are Christian and will display a Bible on their "altar," in the same lodges or elsewhere, Jews, Moslems, Hindus or other non-Christian religions can be admitted and may use their own sacred scriptures. (In France, in 1877, the "Grand Orient" Lodge eliminated the need to believe in God or the immortality of the soul, thereby admitting atheists into their fold; this atheistic type of Freemasonry spread particularly in Latin countries.)

Moreover, the rituals involve the corruption of Christianity. The cross is merely a symbol of nature and eternal life, devoid of Christ's sacrifice for sin. INRI (For Christians, "Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum," i.e. Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews) means for Masons "Igne Natura Renovatur Integra" ("the fire of nature rejuvenates all) referring to the sacred fire's (truth and love) regeneration of mankind, just as the sun regenerates nature in the Spring.

The rituals are also inimical to Catholicism. During the initiation rite, the candidate expresses a desire to seek "light," and he is assured he will receive the light of spiritual instruction that he could not receive in another Church, and that he will gain eternal rest in the "celestial lodge" if he lives and dies according to Masonic principles. Note also that since Masonry involves non-Christians, the use of the name of Jesus is forbidden within the lodge.

A strong Anti-Catholicism also permeates Freemasonry. The two traditional enemies of Freemasonry are the royalty and the papacy. Masons even believe that Christ, dying on Calvary, was the "greatest among the apostles of humanity, braving Roman despotism and the fanaticism and bigotry of the priesthood." When one reaches the 30th degree in the masonic hierarchy, called the Kadosh, the person crushes with his foot the papal tiara and the royal crown, and swears to free mankind "from the bondage of despotism and the thraldom of spiritual tyranny."

A second difficulty with Freemasonry for Catholics involves taking of oaths. An oath is a religious act which asks God to witness the truth of the statement or the fulfillment of a promise. Only the Church and the state, for serious reasons, can require an oath. A candidate makes an oath to Freemasonry and its secrets under pain of death or self-mutilation by kneeling blindfolded in front of the altar, placing both hands on the volume of sacred law (perhaps the Bible), the square and the compass, and repeating after the "worshipful master." Keep in mind that the candidate does not yet even know all the "secrets" to which he is taking an oath.

The history of Freemasonry has proven its anti-Catholic nature. In the United States, one of the leaders of Freemasonry, General Albert Pike (d. 1891) referred to the papacy as "a deadly, treacherous enemy," and wrote, "The papacy has been for a thousand years the torturer and curse of humanity, the most shameless imposture, in its pretense to spiritual power of all ages." In France, in 1877, and in Portugal in 1910, Freemasons took control of the government for a time and enacted laws to restrict the activities of the Church, particularly in education. In Latin America, the Freemasons have expressed anti-Church and anti-clerical sentiment.

Since the decree "In Eminenti" of Pope Clement XII in 1738, Catholics have been forbidden to jojn the Masons, and until 1983, under pain of excommunication. (The Orthodox and several Protestant churches also ban membership in the Masons.) Confusion occurred in 1974, when a letter by Cardinal Franjo Seper, then prefect of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, was interpreted to mean that Catholics could join Masonic lodges that were not anti-Catholic; the same congregation declared this interpretation as erroneous in 1981.

On Nov. 26, 1983, with the approval of Pope John Paul II, the Sacred Congregation reiterated the ban on Catholics joining the Masons: "The Church's negative position on Masonic association ... remains unaltered, since their principles have always been regarded as irreconcilable with the Church's doctrine. Hence, joining them remains prohibited by the Church. Catholics enrolled in masonic associations are involved in serious sin and may not approach Holy Communion." However, neither this declaration nor the 1983 <Code of Canon Law> imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics belonging to the Masons.

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[This message has been edited by kbaum07 (edited 11/29/2007 1:58p).]

quote:

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When one reaches the 30th degree in the masonic hierarchy, called the Kadosh, the person crushes with his foot the papal tiara and the royal crown, and swears to free mankind "from the bondage of despotism and the thraldom of spiritual tyranny

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I'm all for this! Not the foot crushing part but the freedom from despots and spiritual tyranny part.

quote:

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The Catholic Church has difficulties with Freemasonry because it is indeed a kind of religion unto itself. The practice of Freemasonry includes temples, altars, a moral code, worship services, vestments, feast days, a hierarchy of leadership, initiation and burial rites, and promises of eternal reward and punishment.

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I like the phrase kind of, and I disagree with promises of eternal reward and punishment. No where have I seen nor heard that promised. I know that masonry encourages its members to follow masonic teachings and hopes that by doing so, we may better pave our way to something here-after, but it does not pretend to assure anyone of their salvation. When it comes to salvation, masonry points to the open Bible (or book of your faith) and tells you to study it and your faith. Therein lies your pathway to salvation, not within the lodge.

quote:

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While in America most Masons are Christian and will display a Bible on their "altar," in the same lodges or elsewhere, Jews, Moslems, Hindus or other non-Christian religions can be admitted and may use their own sacred scriptures. (In France, in 1877, the "Grand Orient" Lodge eliminated the need to believe in God or the immortality of the soul, thereby admitting atheists into their fold; this atheistic type of Freemasonry spread particularly in Latin countries.)

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The Grand Orient of France in NO way represents the majority of Freemasons throughout the world. They were heavily and actively rejected by the bulk of the English speaking lodges and grand jurisdictions because of their move towards atheism. See:
http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/artmay01/grande_lodge_of_france.htm

Using the Grand Orient of France to describe the whole of masonry would be like using the Peoples Republic of China to describe Republic of Texas. Both are/were independent countries, both have/had rules governing their people, both have/had politicians. Of course, one is a Communist totalitarian country and the other was the short-lived country that is now the Great State of Texas.

quote:

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Moreover, the rituals involve the corruption of Christianity. The cross is merely a symbol of nature and eternal life, devoid of Christ's sacrifice for sin. INRI (For Christians, "Iesus Nazarenus Rex Iudaeorum," i.e. Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews) means for Masons "Igne Natura Renovatur Integra" ("the fire of nature rejuvenates all) referring to the sacred fire's (truth and love) regeneration of mankind, just as the sun regenerates nature in the Spring.

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I've got nothing... I never heard the Cross described in this way, nor do I remember right off hand the Scottish Rite's or York Rite's interpretation of the initials INRI.

quote:

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The rituals are also inimical to Catholicism. During the initiation rite, the candidate expresses a desire to seek "light," and he is assured he will receive the light of spiritual instruction that he could not receive in another Church, and that he will gain eternal rest in the "celestial lodge" if he lives and dies according to Masonic principles. Note also that since Masonry involves non-Christians, the use of the name of Jesus is forbidden within the lodge.

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In *Blue Lodge* masonry, the rituals might confuse people? maybe? but are in no way slanderous or disrespectful of *the Church*.

A candidate does seek *light* (knowledge), but masonry never insinuates that it provides spiritual instruction one could not find in their own church or faith. I like the use of "another" in that sentence too. Masons do not consider Lodge a replacement for Church or the Church. Please read my above comment for the *celestial lodge* comment.

The name Jesus is in no way *FORBIDDEN* in lodge. This is a very common misinterpretation of the fact that masons aren't supposed to evangelize during business meetings. There is no formal or informal penalty for talking about your faith because it would hypocritical to require members to be faithful to their religious beliefs and then require them to not talk about them. It is not hypocritical, when combining men of various religions into one cohesive group, to suggest that they not try to convert each other during the business meetings as nothing would get done. Masons also do not talk about politics in lodge nor try to campaign therein, but that in NO way means that they aren't allowed to say George Bush, or Congress in lodge.

quote:

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A strong Anti-Catholicism also permeates Freemasonry. The two traditional enemies of Freemasonry are the royalty and the papacy. Masons even believe that Christ, dying on Calvary, was the "greatest among the apostles of humanity, braving Roman despotism and the fanaticism and bigotry of the priesthood." When one reaches the 30th degree in the masonic hierarchy, called the Kadosh, the person crushes with his foot the papal tiara and the royal crown, and swears to free mankind "from the bondage of despotism and the thraldom of spiritual tyranny."

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First, unless i'm reading that quote wrong, he was one of the greatest apostles of mankind, he was the Son of God, and was God, in human form. You don't get much greater than that... but, I could be reading it wrong and am therefor showing my ignorance.

The Scottish Rite does have a sway against religious and spiritual tyranny, no questioning that. The question that comes to my mind is does it apply today, now that the Church isn't forcing their religion on people? I'm pretty sure if we were in a time when people were required to believe unquestionably in Catholic Doctrine and non-believers were penalized to death, there would be much more concern about the last quote. But we dont.

If they were real men they would crush them against their foreheads!!

Their hats are very off-putting, and when you get a bunch of them drinking together in the hotel bar...forget about it.

I think it is just kind of gay.

disrespecting the fez will get you 20 lashes.

"disrespecting the fez will get you 20 lashes."

* * * * * * * * * *

I don't remember your name but the fez is familiar.

Do any of you know any Masons?

I've met a few, and they really aren't all that secretive. If you want to join, you only have to ask. They won't ask you.

edited.

[This message has been edited by JTM (edited 11/29/2007 3:48p).]

**** it. edited again. it's all a conspiracy.

[This message has been edited by JTM (edited 11/29/2007 3:57p).]

i can't post again because of the limit, but yea, Yes a super high ranking 32 degree mason MADE me edit my post

This guy is right.

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[This message has been edited by JTM (edited 11/29/2007 4:04p).]

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Simple reason....

Any group that does not outright praise Jesus or God and diverts attention away is somehow bad and should be condemned....

All this fear of Masons is just silly and only shows how insecure most religions are towards their own beliefs

We've been through this before and I'll do a search and pull up some threads later but a couple of points.

Freemasonry IS NOT A RELIGION! Period. The problem "the church" has with us is that we are an organization that allows a man with any faith to join. We don't discriminate against someone who doesn't believe Jesus Christ is the one and only God. That's the basics on that issue.

quote:

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It has some weird stuff that I don't believe much of their membership knows about.

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Oh, so the membership doesn't know but YOU do? Riiiiiight. You need to put the pipe down. It's a fraternity plan and simple.

quote:

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disrespecting the fez will get you 20 lashes.

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Although the shrine (guys with the fez) predicate membership on being a Mason, they are the farthest thing from a Masonic organization. I have very little good things to say about the shrine.

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bent outta shape because they wont let him ride in the funny little car

j/k

How is 1455?

Man, why has this thread gone to sleep.

ctp2nd - I was wondering who you were then you made your comment about 1455 and it only took me a moment to figure you out. You may have even told me your ident before, but I forgot it. Anyway, you going to be in Waco again this year?

quote:

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freemasons is a religious group

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Bullcrap!! I am a MASON, and we are not a religion, never have been. FWIW, Losman got it right.

The catholic church views itself as the will of God manefest on the earth. If the church makes mistakes, then they were justified because of the charge Jesus gave Peter. Any talk about the church (i.e. its leaders) making mistakes is unjustified.

Personally, I take the view that Jesus charge to Peter ended with Peter. Pass the hat, pass the power? hmmmm Saul/Paul did more to shape the future of the catholic church than Peter ever did.

My view of the catholic church is that is one of many christian churches that is doing good works. It needs to drop the pretention of being the only christian church on earth.

Freemasonry? uhhh. eh. It might be a society that is free to talk about things I just mentioned above. Am I a freemason? No.

maybe the Mason's did do some "bad" stuff way back when and that's why the Church looks down on them. Not because they admit anyone...the Church is not insecure about its beliefs. What i wonder though is what the stance on it now is?

quote:

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the Church is not insecure about its beliefs

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Just provencial?

Kind of OT:

My grandfather was a 32nd degree Mason and Shriner. When he died, he had a full Masonic funeral.

I don't really know much about Masonic rites. I have to say that it made me very uncomfortable.

Assuming funerals are for the living rather than for the dead, I struggled with this and still do. It caused me to call into question the things that my grandfather believed.

He would never discuss the stuff that went on at the lodge with me. Maybe if he had, it wouldn't have created the uneasy feeling the proceedings surrounding his funeral created for me and my family.

Exactly what about the ceremony was disturbing?

My grandfather died in the hospital and had been under hospice care, so his death wasn't unexpected.

My dad was present when he died, and family was called and came in immediately. The representatives from the Masons show up within an hour and requested some time alone with his body, and proceeded with some prayer/ritual of some kind seemingly without even being aware of the presence of the family and without what I would consider adequate sensitivity to our grief.

They really didn't say much to us at all - they were more concerned over performing whatever ritual it was they were performing, and didn't respond to requests to explain what it was they were doing.

This same treatment was repeated at the funeral. The traditional funeral was held, and after that the Masons in attendance then stood up, spoke their ritual which involved a response of some sort from the other Masons in attendance. It's been many many years now, so I apologize that my recollection of precise details has faded from my memory.

However, the impression that I recall was that the Masons in attendance were there to perform a series of rituals/rites, that they did so with little to no regard for the family, that they did these rites without explanation of any kind, and that they were there to perform a specified function rather than to remember/celebrate the life of a man.

My grandfather was an old man when he died. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that none of the Masons in attendance even knew him - I don't believe that they did. The entire event smacked of cold ritual without regard to family and seemingly without feeling for my grandfather.

There was some secrecy around it, in that after the graveside service, and before the casket was lowered into the ground, the Masons again surrounded the casket and repeated some form of ritual/prayer.

The sequence at the hospital, at the funeral home, and at the graveside felt to me that the family was in the way of the Masons - that they were there to do a job and patiently waited for the family to get out of the way so they could do whatever it was they were tasked with doing.

I do not feel that the rituals I witnessed were clearly explained, had any sense of care for my grandfather or my family, and were being performed by rote for no apparent purpose and with some degree of secrecy.

It left a sour taste in my mouth, and made me question what it was that my grandfather believed that he should feel so strongly that these rites be performed.

That's about the best I can do to explain. Sorry there are so few details... I guess you could say that the lack of specific detail is part of what I found problematic... in other words, how could it be that at my grandfather's funeral, there was an entire part of the ceremony from which I was completely detached and had no understanding or sense of relevance?

That's okay. I've been involved in Masonic funerals and never have I seen anything quite like you are describing. Lodge's are different, and I apologize if the Mason's that performed at your G'Father's funeral were emotionally cold, and showed little regard for your family. We (my Lodge) would not do such a thing. I'd like to say more, but I don't think this is the proper forum.

TechDiver,
I would think that your grandfather was honored by those in the way he thought was appropriate. I doubt that he meant any dishonor to you or your family. I think you are still hurting by the passing of your grandfather. Your pain might be agrivated because you are not part of the group that performed the ritual. You are upset that you were not part of your grandfathers group.

Death is always painfull. There is no getting around it. Death hurts all.

Walton, I think the spirit of your message is good, but I also think it's off-target. I'm 41 and my grandfather died when I was in my 20s... so it's not that I'm repressing some feelings of resentment or something. Added to that, my grandfather was both quite old and quite ill... his passing was a blessing, albeit a difficult one.

I'm also not on here condemning the Masons. My grandfather was one, and it was an important part of his life. I have no desire to be involved in Masonry, but I wish that he would have helped me and my family understand why it was so important to him. It probably would have made his funeral easier for us to handle, and it certainly would have helped me gain a better understanding of some things that were obviously important to him.

I don't think the Masons intended any harm or hurt feelings towards my family... not at all. I'm simply pointing out on a thread about masonry that I don't understand it, that I've only been briefly exposed to it, and that I'm confused by it based on my limited experience.

To say I loved my grandfather is an understatement... yeah I still miss him, but it was his time. He passed peacefully. I was close to him, and I guess part of the confusion/angst surrounding his funeral is that there was obviously a part of his life lived in secret that for whatever reason he didn't share with the rest of the family.

Maybe that's good, or not. I dunno.

The Masons that I know and are my friends feel that it is a dying organization. That may or may not be accurate - I'm not a mason, so I don't know. They tell me that the Lodge is getting older and new masons are fewer and farther between.

I don't understand the nature or need for the secrecy in the organization - because I have family and friends in the organization, I wish I understood it better than I do, but am unwilling to become more involved to get first-hand experience precisely because of the secrecy... I'm not willing to sign up for something sight-unseen.

In my opinion, I highly value transparency and am suspicious of secrecy.

Thanks to you both for your courteous responses.

[This message has been edited by TechDiver (edited 12/3/2007 1:08p).]