Our university administration has bowed and cowered to tu politics. There are no legitimate reasons to not have an on campus bonfire. 50 story buildings that must stand for 100 years are designed in months. A safe stack of logs could be designed in-house in days.It only has toburn for a couple of hours.the thought here in Austin is that if we postpone it for a few years,it will go away. It shows that True AGGIES are not making the decisions.Our traditions have been eroded by outsiders over the years, but it is especially sad and un-Aggie like that we have let our greatest tradition fade away.

Aftermath, the decision was made by Bowen (an Aggie, like it or not) to suspend On-Campus Bonfire discussion until the lawsuits are resolved.

And a reliable stack design has been completed. We built it off-campus last year, and we're building it again this year.

and since the Governor is an Ag, and more importantly bleeds Maroon at heart, i don't see how t.u. has one damn bit of contorl over the current state of affairs.


Remember '99.
OC Hogs Build Bonfire!

at our tournament on Sunday, I was speaking with a guy class of '03. His first semester at A&M, Bonfire fell. He says that it was UNREAL how fast traditions and the Aggie Spirit faded away over the next few years. Campus now is absolutely NOTHING compared to campus when he was a freshman.

The simple thought of that just tears at me. Bonfire is an essential part of an Aggie's balanced diet.

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He says that it was UNREAL how fast traditions and the Aggie Spirit faded away over the next few years. Campus now is absolutely NOTHING compared to campus when he was a freshman.

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Recall how it feels to walk down the ramps at Kyle Field after an A&M loss. You are supported by those around you and you recount the things that could have been done differently, but that aching in your heart despite all your efforts in the stands won't go away.

Now multiply that feeling by 12, cancel football season and tell everyone that it may be years before anyone plays football again, if ever.

That is how campus felt following the fall of Bonfire.

You know how the whole stadium goes silent after an opponent intercepts the ball and scores the winning touchdown on Kyle Field? That's what the Spirit did in November '99. It was that abrupt. For weeks, the whole Aggie community just went silent with tears. It was the only time in my life when I walked on campus and didn't hear a single "Howdy."

In the years following, things didn't rebound. The class of '04 was bitter about being constantly told that they were second-class Aggies because they never did Bonfire. That sentiment carred on to the next few years and eventually the student body's spirit reflected the callouses that the class of '03 and earlier wore to cover up the hurt from Bonfire.

I'm sorry. I can't type anymomre.

-------------------------------------------------------
If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you can read this in English, thank a Soldier.

My sentiment is still that we have let it fade away.We have cowered to the threats of lawyers,judges,media, etc.. It has been totally uncharacteristic of us as Aggies to react this way to an unfortunate event. If someone has an auto accident,they don't close down the roads. If someone dies tragically in route to the OU-tu game(as some have),they don't cancel the Red- River Shootout. We have let this tradition die and it has torn at the very fabric that is Texas A&M. Don't be naieve enough to think that the people here in austin aren't snickering about how they have rid themselves of the one tradition that was aimed at them . There was never a time that "the spirit that can't be told" was felt as much as it was at the Bonfire. It was our greatest recruiting tool,not to mention spirit building event for the game that followed.It will never be the same until we BRING IT BACK!!

They took our jobs!

oh wai...

[This message has been edited by HOGS LEW (edited 9/13/2006 8:07a).]

dey der der derrrrr!!!!!!

There are 12 legitimate reasons that there is not a Bonfire on-campus today. You can pay your respects to them just east of engineering campus.

You are right about the University designing a safe Bonfire design, and in '03 or '04, the University showed three safe designs to the student body. The student body rejected all of them, because the University wanted to being in a contractor to build the Bonfire, and then everybody could watch it burn. The students rightly called it McBonfire, and the non-Ags in the University Administration learned that Bonfire was a journey, not a destination.

Unfortunately, in the Bonfire Commission Report, the cause of the fall in '99 was just as due to structural problems as it was due to the "Bonfire Culture", which includes, but is not limited to, hazing, screwing around at Cut, and most importantly, a group of 18-24 year-olds with limited (<5 years) construction experience building a towering stack without formal plans.

I have both met with Dr. Gates multiple times, and spent a weekend with the family of one of the 12 at the dedication of the Bonfire Memorial, and all of those people echo the same statement: "We should not ever have ANY Aggie die or be seriously injured in the name of a tradition."

Bonfire was not Aggie Spirit, and Aggies aren't about throwing blame around. It's up to the current students to do their part and carry their weight of this history we all share, and it's up to the former students to support them. That's our job now.

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the University showed three safe designs to the student body. The student body rejected all of them,

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Where did you get that idea? Yes, there were vocal opponents to the elimination of Cut, but the University's proposal got 92% approval.

The new SB design is safe, has been designed by and Aggie engineer with a P.E., and has been signed off by him. It is built to his specs every year.

Ch Bass is spouting the same rhetoric that the tu lawyers and media people spit out.We are all aware of what happened.We all hurt about it for a long time.It is time to get back on the horse and honor those who died, bycarring on the tradition that they loved.ChBass can keep jabbering the same BS that all of the non-Aggie opponents babble,but I know that the large majority of Aggies everywhere want it back.It is time to stop trying to be politically correct and bring back what was the heart of our A&M traditions.

Leknerd, you're right, the proposed designs gor over 90% approval. Your memory is waay better than mine, though, I had to look it up in the Batt archives. Turns out the student body's problem with was paying for it, as 60% of the students polled (although less than a third of students at that time cared enough to take the survey, and I doubt that number would increase if the student body were given a chance to chime in now) said that the costs for this University-approved bonfire were too great, and only 30% of students would be willing to pay a paltry $20/semester "Bonfire Fee". I would imagine that even less of the current student body would be willing to pay what only 30% the student body of '01-'02 was willing to.

The article can be found here: http://www.thebatt.com/media/storage/paper657/news/2002/01/23/FrontPage/Survey.Results.Students.Support.Bonfire-516709.shtml?norewrite200609131612&sourcedomain=www.thebatt.com

As for aftermath, wow. The "rhetoric" that I'm spouting isn't based in political correctness or being a "tu lawyer", whatever that means. My opinion is based in reality, discussions with the highest levels of A&M's administration, and time spent with the family of one of the students who lost his life working on our tradition. I am all for bringing Bonfire back. I am all for bringing it back to campus and having students work on it as much as possible. But I will not support any form of tradition that puts my fellow Aggies at risk of death. I don't want any more memorials on my beloved campus bearing the names of members of my Aggie family who died in the name of tradition.

[This message has been edited by ChBass (edited 9/13/2006 3:31p).]

Chris, if you don't mind me asking, what was your vote in that survey?

Wow... I'm trying (in vain, it seems) to find the survey to try and jog my memory.

I do remember voting for the wedding cake design, and didn't they have a range of choices, and asked "What would you be willing to pay, in terms of a Bonfire fee?" I remember thinking, within the scope of a semester's $5-$6,000, a 1% increase of $50 or $60 (that I just would have been paying for now in student loans) wouldn't be painful at all.

At the time, I was an advocate for doing anything to get the University to start something, anything on-campus. My friends and I figured that even if we had a "cutless" Bonfire, that eventually the rules would loosen, and slowly (but more safely) Bonfire would become more "normal".

Keep in mind, this was before I was fully involved with campus things, before I met the Powell family, and even before I was on (then) Bowen's lawn, having a yell practice after he decided to discontinue Aggie Bonfire.

Also, everything I said is just my opinion. My main concern is the safety of all Aggies.

Leknerd, I'm assuming you knew me from way back then... not having posted in a long time, forgive me for not knowing who you are...

ChBass,as I posted in the original thread,our administration is a large part of the problem.If they wanted to bring it back, all they would have to do is ask the alumni for a $20 donation every year,it would be easily raised.Many of them did not attend A&M and do not feel the way that the majority of the alumni do.If you are an aggie and spent 4 years in school at A&M ,I find it very hard to believe that it is not on your short list of things that need to happen at A&M.I know that Dr. Gates does not want to bring it back, it has no place in his heart.Are you an Aggie Chbass?

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Wow... I'm trying (in vain, it seems) to find the survey to try and jog my memory.

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Partial results are still on the TAMU website.

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Leknerd, I'm assuming you knew me from way back then... not having posted in a long time, forgive me for not knowing who you are...

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A former Clements Hall Tech Chair. You probably don't remember me, but I remember you. At one of our hall council meetings, you praised us for how well our dorm was handling the absence of Bonfire.

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But I will not support any form of tradition that puts my fellow Aggies at risk of death.

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so standing in the Texas sun amongst thousands of other people watching a game...doesn't fit that?

Or how about the tradition of driving home for Christmas, or thanksgiving, or to class.

I have to ask leknerd2004, who are you? Clements Pot with an Elephant (whoop!) on the front?

I'm Clements Dan, and I do have an elephant on my pot.

I was thinking that was you

[This message has been edited by Burger (edited 9/13/2006 11:20p).]

Texas Rebel is correct,the logic that we should not do it (bonfire)because of the tragic accident is like saying that we should not drive,swim,eat,run,go outside,play sports,fly in planes,etc. . All of these result in tragic accidental deaths all the time,but we don't stop doing them. We keep doing them and learn how to do them safer and better.It is POLITICS,tu Politics, that is keeping us from having Bonfire. We should be embarrassed that we have let it happen. Every one of those kids who died tragically that day would want it to continue. Most Aggies want it to continue. Only Politics is keeping it away.Design it, insure it,build it,and BURN IT!!

PERRY IS NOT AN AGGIE, PLEASE DO NOT CLAIM HIM. HE WOULD RATHER SEE t.u. WIN THEN US. *****PERRY.

Vanilla,

I think you forget that Perry is an Aggie. you may dislike some of his more politically motivated gestures towards t.u.'s athletics, but truth be told, Perry has done quite a lot for our school in his terms in office.

The administration had plans to do away with Bonfire BEFORE it fell. If you check out Vision 2020, you'll see that the plan to have outside companies come in and construct bonfire for the students, as well as doing away with cut and load, was already on the table years before stack fell. In fact, Vision 2020 is nothing more than a plan to take A&M away from the conservative, tradition-rich atmosphere that it was, and turn it into what it is now. Everyother college, USA. Bonfire was the greatest example of "Old Army", the biggest middle finger to the administration and the biggest thorn in their side. Why do you think they cut loose the reds and Rusty Thompson when stack fell? And you know what's the sad thing? They won. The campus now is no different than any other college in America, and it is missing the uniqueness that it once had.

Bunterman,
you are sooo right.The university has allowed outsiders,concerned only with research and academia to come in and make their grand plan for our university.They could care less about our tradition.Did you know that Vision 2020 calls for discontinuation of the Corps,and the model university that they desired to emulate is Cal Berkley.If we do not act to change things we will be nothing more than a Wal-mart U,and we will for sure be stepchild to tu forever.

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Did you know that Vision 2020 calls for discontinuation of the Corps,

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No, it doesn't.

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and the model university that they desired to emulate is Cal Berkley.

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Partly true. The Vision 2020 document makes frequent references to Berkeley, Michigan, UNC, UCLA, UC San Diego, and Wisconsin.

I'll be brief. I wrote a longer note, but then I left it to go to lunch, and when I finished it and returned and hit submit, BAM. Gone.

First off, Remember that two Aggies, Ray Bowen and J. Malon Southerland, were the ones in "power" when the decision to indefinitely postpone Bonfire was made. I was in the room with Bowen when he read his decision, I was on his lawn that night when he and Southerland came out to hundreds of Aggies yelling on his lawn, and as I looked into his tear-filled eyes both times, I have never been more glad to not be in another man's shoes. When there are lawsuits saying that 12 people died, and it's your fault, not to mention that there are 40,000 other kids you are responsible for, that's a heavy weight. People are quick to discount Bowen's "aggieness" because of this decision, but a lesser man and a lesser President would have capitulated under the sheer stress of those last years of his Presidency. Same with Southerland, I believe he was Deputy Corps Commander as a student, and I also believe he was the Bonfire advisor before Bill Kibler. That was all way before my time, so I'm just trying to recall those items.

Leknerd, I just remember when I was taking that survey that I had better keep studying so I wouldn't miss out on participating due to GPR! And I believe I do remember you from back in the day. I always liked Clements (although I doubt the feelings were reciprocal). In a time when many of the dorms became alike, Clements always went their own way. Hope everything is going well.

As for the "relative risk" argument: There is a BIG difference between driving home for Christmas to be with your family, driving to class to work to earn a degree, and standing in the woods while 18-24 year olds who are minimally trained to swing axes are doing so to participate in a tradition. Likewise, if any Aggie is standing and yelling in the stands of Kyle Field, and they feel they are at risk of serious injury or death, no sane person would support their staying out in the heat.

Rick Perry was a head yell leader! His senior boots were nailed to the outhouse and burned with Bonfire! If he's not an Aggie, then may God help all of us...

From Vision 2020, under Goals (pg 32): "Support efforts to grow and enhance the quality of the character, leadership and citizenship development offered by the Corps of Cadets, the Memorial Student Center, Student Government and
other broad-based student organizations. Grow the Corps of Cadets to no less than 2,600."

The entire document can be found here: http://www.tamu.edu/vision2020/culture/culture.pdf

I was in Gates' conference room in Rudder Tower the day after he discussed with other members of the administration the previous morning that he was going to unilaterally decide to bring Bonfire back. By lunch, he said, the conference room was filled with the University's lawyers. The logic is as follows:

A&M allowed Bonfire to be built as it was.

The Bonfire Commission proved that the design and culture of Bonfire, both of which the University tolerated, were responsible for 12 deaths.

A&M cannot allow the students to build using an unsafe design.

If A&M allows the students to build using a revised, safer design, it proves that A&M could have made the design safer and saved the lives of the 12, which in a court could be used to prove A&M's culpability.

Back to the original statement: yes, this is "lawyer stuff", but it's also reality. Unless you can stop all of the Bonfire lawsuits, there is little you can do. If you are a former student, involvement in the Association will help get your thoughts heard. Money talks at this University.

If you're a current student, spend some time reading the books on A&M History. I suggest Dethloff's "A Centinnial History of Texas A&M University", John Adams' "Keepers of the Spirit: The Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M University, 1876 - 2001" (before the hardocre non-regs bristle, remember that until Veterans came back after the War, Corps history was A&M history) and Dethloff's "Texas A&M University A Pictorial History 1876 - 1996". Learning about the history of the school will make your Aggie experience so much richer, and it will provide you great perspective on the University's current state.

ChBass speaks some wisdom Aggies. I remember shaking Bowen's hand that day and whispering in his ear, "Sir, it is with no disrespect intended that we notify you we will find a way to build it, with or without the University's blessing. You know this."

ChBass is right. Tears were often in his eyes. I may have lost three friends to that Stack, but Bowen bore the weight of losing 12 and the emotions and hurting of thousands.


Remember '99.
OC Hogs Build Bonfire!

Every time I read Texags and come across some of you snivelling, tradition hating ladies, I lose a little more hope for A&M. Some of you candy-asses clearly got lost on the way to Austin, Lubbock or Waco. Please buy a map and leave. - Buck Turgidson

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Rick Perry was a head yell leader! His senior boots were nailed to the outhouse and burned with Bonfire! If he's not an Aggie, then may God help all of us...

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yes, Perry used to be an Aggie...but he's not anymore, I'm starting to question his ability to call himself a Texan.

I don't know what year you guys are, but Bowen and Sutherland HATED the bonfire community, and made it their mission to get rid of it. This was 2-3 years before stack fell, and of course when 12 people die, you're not going to walk out there and say, "I told you so."

We had meetings with Sutherland and Bowen, and both of them made it clear to us that they would be happy if Non-Reg bonfire was gone. No more Cut, no more Load, and Stack would be built by cherrypickers. It started when the Bush Library came to campus, and we had to take things off our pots. It continued to change as the years went on, until Stack fell and it became a moot point. When they came out with their new plan for Bonfire, it sounded surprisingly like what Sutherland had told us the administration's plan was all along.

I liked the Wal-Mart U comment, though. It's funny because it's true.

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I liked the Wal-Mart U comment, though. It's funny because it's true.

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I disagree. Wal-Mart is always rolling back prices.

ChBass

"by lunch,the room was filled with the university's lawyers"

Thank you for stating this.NONE of these lawyers recieved their law degree at A&M.The decision was made by Outsiders.I live in Austin,I have for 21 years,I know the sentiment.I didn't just make this up.Lawsuits happen. You redesign,reorganize,buy insurance and go on.It is not rocket science.It is the way all of America operates.It makes no sense that we are not building the bonfire on campus.People like YOU ChBass,who have some personal agenda, are the ONLY thing that stand in the way of Bonfire. I was thinking about taking a shower this morning,but because of the risk of slipping and falling ,I think I will take a bath,no,I guess I might drown there and then an Austin lawyer would contact my wife and kids and sue the bathtub manufacturer,my builder and anyone else who may have suggested that I bathe.Oh wait a minuite,Ihave homeowners insurance,and besides,I am logical enough to realize that accidents happen and I can't go through life not doing things that I want to do in fear that the worst is going to happen.

Woah... hold on there tiger... So me and my "personal agenda" are the only reasons that Bonfire is not on-campus? You're right. I'm sure it had nothing to do with 12 people dying and the lawsuits.

The fact is, a major University is being sued, right now. While I'm sure you're the first person who thought to "redesign, reorganize, buy insurance and go on", I think I clearly stated that doing just that would cost the University MILLIONS in the cost of the lawsuits. Add the cost of the lawsuits to the cost of the reorganized Bonfire, and it is simply infeasible.

As for the "t.u. politics" behind the lawsuits, the lawsuits are being brough forth on behalf of Aggies who were injured in the Bonfire's collapse, and the families of Aggies who died in the collapse, based on their belief that the Administration knew how unsafe practices were at Bonfire. This isn't "slipping in the tub", these are people participating in a University Sponsored Event who died. Is it a "personal agenda" to hold a group responsible for the danger you believe they allowed your child to be exposed to that resulted in your child's death? If you let your kids go to a daycare, and the daycare sponsored an event at playtime (organized and led by the kids, of course), and as a result, your child died... wouldn't you want the daycare to be held responsible?

Now, I'm not saying that A&M is as responsible for the Aggies as a daycare is for the children, but that's the best analogy I can think of right now. And while I would want nothing more than (and as a student, I often fought) to see Bonfire burn again on-campus, I believe more in allowing the American judicial system to run its course.

So, if you want to donate the millions of dollars for the settlements, or if you want to tell the families of the Aggies who died (or the Aggies who were injured) that they need to "suck it up" so we can continue our tradition, or if you wish to undermine the American judicial system by replacing "justice for all" with "tradition for some", go ahead. Those of us tired of whining about lawsuits and other things we can't control have focused our energy in more productive ways.

When the skydiving plane crashed, did the parents of those kids sue a&m? the a&m skydiving club is a univ sponsored organization, just like aggie bonfire was...

I have alot to say on the issue.....but its late and im still seing red from the game.


Just had a buddy propose to his girl under the century tree though, All is good

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Proudest member of the Fightin Texas Aggie class of 08 Beat the h*** outa tu A-A-A Whoop!!!. May bonfire forever burn in our hearts.....and may the Twelfth Man ever burn it in memory and in hope for the future.