absolutely phenomenal. Brilliant

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And this from a group of people where 0 know me.

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talk about your baseless claims...

oh you know me now?

sorry chunks
you know I hadn't thought of it, but yeah-- we should be happy. I think bonfire is going well this year.
Not that I am speaking for anyone or have any connections with people in bonfire leadership now, but I am pretty sure any bonfire leaders that read this forum use it as a comic relief in what is normally a long hard week.
Being critical doesn't make you right. Being critical and wrong at the same time just makes you annoying.
And finally being critical,blatantly ignorant, and making stuff up just makes you funny so keep the jokes coming guys. If you have a serious question or concern ask a yellowpot. And if you are still right after putting 2 years worth of hard work into bonfire and proving you are worth your salt you can be in upper leadership and change policies that way.

[This message has been edited by bigsue08 (edited 11/7/2007 1:37p).]

Nobody is saying being critical makes anybody right or wrong. But the attitudes of those IN bonfire towards those who ARE critical is primarily one of "we don't want to hear it, we're doing it right".

Criticism doesn't, and shouldn't be something that everybody does a snap 180 and a revolution takes place. It's meant to create some discussion, offer up a little thought..."hmm, I hadn't thought of that before" or "gosh, I didn't know that people OUTSIDE of our organization thought that way or viewed us that way"

SOME of you guys take criticism in the MOST negative way possible.

...says somebody who believes the Batt and KBTX.

Well that's a pretty damn good joke if I ever heard one.

I believed what somebody in your ranks of leadership was foolish enough to tell sometbody...from the BATT of all places! I didn't believe the BATT, nor do I, nor will I ever...what a load.

Where do I even START??? I just want to quickly point out that Slims comments are being taken out of context and misconstrued and though they are unpopular they are in some respects correct. If you combine the fact that bonfire participants are pretty much men with the fact that most women dont choose to step up in that forum you get a leadership that is predominately male. That is not to say women are incapable of taking on a leadership role, that is to say that most women dont push for, fight for, DEMAND the position that they want. If you want respect at bonfire you work for it. If you are a woman you work harder for it. If some female out there wants a position, prove you are capable of doing it and then make it known that you want to do X. Me being female didnt stop me from carrying a saw in 03. Why you might ask? Because no body could (or would) tell me that I couldnt do the job. In fact I dare anyone now to tell me that I cant do something... sounds like a challange and makes it even more rewarding when I accomplish whatever it is Ive been told I cant do. That said if you get your panties in a twist about women not being leadership there is a simple solution...get more women out there and get the ones that are there serious about bonfire and not just serious about bonfire boys and ***ching about their broken nails. Cant tell you how sick it makes me to hear girls talking about wanting to date this pot or that pot as if they are shoe shopping.

care to explain how they were taken out of context?

Oh, and for the record, the gal I live with, I've never once heard her swooning over wanting to date some "pot" or anything else like that...pretty sure she'd gag at the very thought.

think, little furry rodent that lives in trees and eats acorns.

Hey..for the record..SQUIRREL is a very nice guy and is very deserving of a very nice girl. I did not date him for pot purposes...what sense would that make? Our pots are on the same level, just different ends of the spectrum. How would that get me anywhere? Silly Rebel.

most worthless thing to bring up ever. Why does it ever matter who dates who.

Chunks,

I agree with your statement, however it is not prudent to get your honey from the same place you get your bread. This is an opinion of mine and I apply it to all of my endeavors, and this practice has not failed me yet.

What is popular is not always right
What is right is not always popular

yeah! i thought this was the "complaints" thread anyway!

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Silly Rebel.

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Wow, what an understatement.



[This message has been edited by TexAgs staff (edited 11/9/2007 9:15a).]

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I did not date him for pot purposes...

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I never said you did...

However, since you did agree that you did, it helps anybody who reads this while digging up old threads to see just how credible a certain roommate of yours is when they see him claim that you did not...

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...pretty sure she'd gag at the very thought.

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The only ways this statement can be true is if you were A) not thinking, or B) gagging constantly. Because he was, in fact, a "pot".


EDIT:

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Thank you for submitting your vote to TexAgs.com

As of 11/9/2007, there have been 2 objections to this post.

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and by the way...I wasn't even the only one to object this time...

[This message has been edited by TexasRebel (edited 11/9/2007 8:55a).]

you're missing the point.

he said i'd gag at the thought of dating someone PURELY ON the BASIS that they were a pot. that was not the case here. i could've cared less about his position in bonfire...completely irrelevent.

I'm not going to discuss my roommates relationship issues, past, present, or future. Sorry creep. She, we, both knew Johnathon well before his "pot" days and I can assure you that period of time had nothing to do with the fact that he was a pot, or even involved with bonfire. He's a nice genuine guy from what I know, and maybe that has something to do with it.

I think you should disinvolve yourself from my roommate's affairs and get back to your 140 hour work weeks and quit making yourself look like a dumbass.

Should I be bothered by the fact that you objected to a post of mine? V, you're just being silly now.

I have one question about the "Bro" video...

How did they get that Token/Pinata footage?

Scott Coker '92

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Discussions, prayers and mutual support

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Didnt say ALL women are pot chasers...I happen to know the female you live with square and am well aware that she didnt date Squirrel for his pot. I do however hear plenty of conversations when walking through the woods by women about this pot, that pot, how does my hair look, and I cant lift logs...it might break my nail. Again, this isnt all women and it certainly isnt the women who end up being involved with bonfire for multiple years...it is however, in my experience, most women (sadly).

As to slims comments being taken out of context and misconstrued... I believe anyone who knows slim knows that he doesn't have a mean or prejudiced bone in his body. His comments about women while unfortunate and unpopular are by and large true. Most women do not have the attitude or gumption it takes to be a force at bonfire... women are in fact people pleasers...we are raised from birth to cater to others needs and put others ahead of ourselves. Therefor when it comes time to make the hard decisions we will do whatever it takes to make everyone happy and will sometimes for fear of hurting someones feelings do what is easier not what is right. You can ask any psychologist about this...even Dr Phil would agree. Women are raised to be docile and make people happy. Its what we do as nurturers and caretakers. If a woman does step out of that stereotypical role she is portrayed as unnatural. Men on the other had are the warriors and bread winners. They are taught to fight to push and to be aggressive. The only time we see women as natural fighters is when someone threatens their children or family...not when they are threatened but when someone they love especially a child is threatened. Another example of we care more about other people than we do about ourselves. So we're back to Slim was right and constantly bringing up his post and dissecting little pieces of it without the background of the conversation that was held prior to that statement is taking it out of context. I get that it isn't popular and he probably should have bitten his tounge (or fingers in this case) BUT that doesn't make what he said any less true. his comments weren't about EVERY female. They were about MOST females. And if you talk to those of us that have been around many years at bonfire i think you'd find we would all pretty much AGREE with slim. Of course that would mean you'd actually have to know who we are and then actually talk to us and since from what I hear Square you aren't often (or ever) at bonfire that might be difficult for you.

That doesnt mean I dont want it to change and that I dont try to identify and encourage strong women to be involved in bonfire...just that what I see...every year...fits with what Slim said. Can women hold a leadership position? absolutely. Have I seen a female that I would pass a pot to were I involved in the decision making process? Possibly. But just because you are the best female out there doesn't mean you are better than EVERY other male candidate. I go back to my original advice...if you are a woman and you want a position...work harder. Prove your worth and how invaluable you are to bonfire.

Wow. Way to set back women's efforts for equal opportunity in this country back about 40 years, awesome. I happen to know, very closely, many strong women, and a number who happen to be in leadership roles and are pretty big deals in some pretty important places. To say generally that women aren't or can't be as strong of leaders is just flat out garbage. I'd like to hear what you think about black people, mexican people, asians, short people, etc...

And as to "nearly all of us" agreeing with Slim, I'd have to say you're wrong, otherwise his sexist comments would not have been brought forward and the action that was taken would not have been taken.

What you just shared with us is classic sexism, regardless of your own sex, and classic bonfire people "protecting their own," even when obvious wrong was done.

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His comments about women while unfortunate and unpopular are by and large true. Most women do not have the attitude or gumption it takes to be a force at bonfire... women are in fact people pleasers...we are raised from birth to cater to others needs and put others ahead of ourselves. Therefor when it comes time to make the hard decisions we will do whatever it takes to make everyone happy and will sometimes for fear of hurting someones feelings do what is easier not what is right. You can ask any psychologist about this...even Dr Phil would agree. Women are raised to be docile and make people happy. Its what we do as nurturers and caretakers. If a woman does step out of that stereotypical role she is portrayed as unnatural. Men on the other had are the warriors and bread winners. They are taught to fight to push and to be aggressive. The only time we see women as natural fighters is when someone threatens their children or family...not when they are threatened but when someone they love especially a child is threatened. Another example of we care more about other people than we do about ourselves.

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Yeah, yeah I'm pretty sure this very quote right there is FAR more sexist and disturbing than anything Slim said, as a mater of fact, it makes his comments look downright TAME. To say that women don't have what it takes to be a force because they are "people pleasers" and will do what is "easier" instead of what is "right" is bringing into question what millions and generations have been working for. It's not "unnatural" for a woman to be strong and make decisions, it shows that she's independent and doesn't need anybody to take care of her. I happen to know one extremely successful woman who's seen more than you ever will, especialy if you continue to limit yourself to your "stereotypical role". She's had over 100 people reporting to her at times, and I know for a fact she would be embarassed to hear such words about a woman's ability. I'm sorry you feel this way, and I'm sorry you feel so constrained by your alleged perception that society has for you. I work for a woman, a damn good one at that, and I'm proud of the job she does and the job that I do for her. It's an attitude like this that will forever keep you limited, not by your abilities, but by other people.

And for the record, that green that I live with, she's strong enough to make any damn decision she wants, and she's not confined but what any man has to say about it.

I don't know you, and I don't mean this as an attack in any way, especially because my roommate has spoken kindly of you in the past. But in all honesty, you should be embarassed, and I sincerely hope that you don't feel like you can't make decisions and that you're in fact weaker and less able to make "right" and ethical decisions.

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Oh, and for the record, the gal I live with, I've never once heard her swooning over wanting to date some "pot" or anything else like that...

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who brought it up?
My point was, that he was a pot, and they did date...given a few other circumstances, from the outside looking in, one could argue many things just based on the timing of their relationship. Just because she was also a pot is actually irrelevant. You must keep in mind that I know another pot that she showed interest in at one time

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get back to your 140 hour work weeks

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Let me slow it down for you a little so you can understand...


I...
quit...
that...
job...
in...
July...

and my resignation stands.

...

now, I'll let you continue to argue with DG and make yourself look foolish because you don't know her...nor her attitude toward somebody telling her she can't do something...and you can't even really comprehend what she's trying to say because it's <gasp> a complex thought about her observations while she is actually out at Cut/Stack/Burn continuing to demonstrate her leadership abilities while enjoying the weekend and keeping many many people fed.

Thanks DG, and I promise the fires will be more accomidating to cooking.

[This message has been edited by TexasRebel (edited 11/10/2007 4:49p).]

Cooking, right where she belongs, right?

What she was saying wasn't just an observation about women's role in bonfire. She was speaking to women's role in society as passive and nurturing, and largely unable to be in leadership roles.

And sorry, I don't keep up with your employment status there bud.

cooking...like she offers to.

leadership that involves coordinating a bunch of people with minimal experience to work together in order to minimize injuires, deaths, and sucessfully complete an engineering/construction project on what could possibly be the smallest budget in the world...

and leadership that involves coordinating people with adequate experience so your company makes the most money while spending the least...

are not comparable. Wrong but popular decisions have drastically different potential in these two opposite situations.

Edit: wrong word.

[This message has been edited by TexasRebel (edited 11/10/2007 5:12p).]

Once again...comments made about the general role of women in society are not meant to apply to all women. I happen to know many strong women and in fact consider myself to be a strong woman. That said, all you have to do is turn on the TV to see the role that women are portrayed as in this society. Yeah yeah there is the occasional uber sexy super hero with her massively large chest and overly tight black leather outfit, but even they have a weakness... usually in the form of some male super hero (still pissed off at michelle pfiefer for that whole catwoman fiasco...for another example you could check out the flick my super ex girlfirend- apparently women go all crazy and emotional when broke up with).

My comments make slims look tame because I am far less likely to guard my tounge or blunt the truth with niceties. Slim is a much more diplomatic person than I. You may not like me for my honesty, but unlike most women who are more "feminine", I dont give two craps. And regardless of your desire to be that man who supports womens rights and is all sensitive to the cause... you're still wrong. I suggest you go do some research into gender roles in the U.S. before daring to suggest that I am wrong about this. you may just find that despite the few exceptional women who have fought long and hard for their jobs etc the majority are still WAY behind their male counterparts choosing either to stay at home (a perfectly logical and valid life choice) or fighting for scraps at what is still a male dominated good ole boys club.

For Example- in the top 100 firms in Chicago there are NO women CEO's at all. A 2003 survey by the National Association for Female Executives (NAFE) shows that women who work full-time, year-round, earn 76 percent of what men earn(thats if they are lucky... I could go on but will allow you the pleasure of self discovery should you choose to actually do some research before making baseless accusations about ME setting back women and the Womens movement.


Also I didnt say that ALL women dont have what it takes...I said MOST...which is true...and im sorry to burst your overly developed sense of justice bubble but again....MOST women are raised to be people pleasers and put others ahead of themselves. While Im sure your mom would be very proud of your highly developed views of womens role in society it doesnt change the fact that in society women are supposed to be the nurtures, men the hunters and women who are aggressive are viewed as unnatural. I'm thrilled you recognize the value of a strong independent woman...I wish more people did, unfortunately the rest of society must just be one rung lower on the evolutionary ladder than you.

As to limiting myself...Its clear you dont know me...at ALL. Im hardly the compliant female type that is TYPICAL in society. I do not limit myself to being the docile and genteel woman that most women are raised to be. I don't feel constrained by my gender and stereotypical roles that I frequently step outside of. I am not limited (ref my earlier post about being told no and that being viewed as a challenge)rather I am emboldened by the judgmental attitudes of others. As i stated earlier, Its always satisfying to prove to someone I can do what they said I couldn't. I make difficult decisions on a regular basis and do not feel that I am in any way weak, unethical, or inferior. Furhter, I pride myself on my ability to eloquently and articulately state an argument and defend my point of view, regardless of whether that view is popular or not.

As to the "extremely successful woman who has seen more than I ever will"...somehow I doubt that. She may have seen different things, and experienced more in her life than I have at the ripe old age of 26, BUT again you clearly don't know anything about me and have no personal knowledge of what I have or have not seen or what I have done. As such I would suggest you stick to points that are relevant (BTW I have seen a good chunk of the world having lived abroad for three years, traveling extensively, and I fully intend to see the rest of it before I die...) As to her feelings on my comments, I suggest you ask her instead of claiming to know her reaction. If shes that smart she should be given the opportunity to make her own decision about the statements Ive made instead of having some male do it for her. Seems to me when I engage in intelligent discussion with other articulate females, they aren't embarrassed by my statements... we are collectively sad that after generations of fighting for equality we still aren't there yet and the stereotypes continue.

Also I never made any statements about ALL womens abilities. In fact Ive said that I believe a woman can do anything she chooses to, HOWEVER, most don't. The exception is not the rule and pointing to one woman who is strong and successful is not indicative of the rest of women in society.

Lastly (if anyone is still reading at this point because lets face it a novel would be shorter) I would appreciate it if you would not presume to tell me how to feel. While I do enjoy the witty banter...its hardly making your point when you presume to know the thoughts of one woman and then presume to tell another woman how to think...Do you somehow think that you can do that because you are such an enlightened male or is it just because you somehow without doing any research on the roles of women in society have come to the conclusion that you're right? I am not embarrassed by my statements or my actions as a woman. I am sorry that there are not more strong women role models in the world. I regret that most girls are given barbies and ez-bake ovens instead of plastic power tools (We already have a chainsaw picked out for peanut) My desire for change doesn't change the way things are at this very moment. Do I seek to be an agent of change and encourage young women to be more active yes...doesnt change the way things are now. Do i hope the future holds more opportunities for women...absolutely...still doesnt change the way things are in the world right this second. All I can do is continue to push for change in my "limited" sphere of influence, continue to show other women what the possibilities are for them through my actions, and hope that some day everyone is as advanced in their thinking as you clearly are.

PS- I cook because I enjoy it and am good at it (barring the pot roast fiasco of last weekend- that I am embarrassed about) Should you ever deign to show up at bonfire I welcome you to my dinner...where I could continue to point out the flaws in your argument and enlighten you as to my views on other minorities and their stereotypical roles in society. As long as you don't throw trash on my cooking fire you should be safe and it should be a lively discussion.

^^^^

this thread.

mods please move this to the "Women's issues" Board

DG, you tell 'em. Exactly on the ball. And I still think about that beef stew you fixed for us last year, it was great!



What is popular is not always right
What is right is not always popular

All good points. I don't presume to know the thoughts of that woman, I know the thoughts of that woman. I didn't pretend to anticipate what she said, I told you what she said.

I think your desire to be the exception to the rule and your ability to accomplish what you've done is great and I hope you keep on that path. I hope nobody ever tells my daughter one day what she can and can't do, regardless of what other women before her have or haven't done though.

[This message has been edited by SquareOne07 (edited 11/11/2007 6:53p).]

"I know for a fact she would be embarassed to hear such words about a woman's ability"

the use of the phrase "would be" implies that you have not told her what was said but that her response should you tell her WOULD BE ______. If you did tell this person what I said, which I have some doubts about, I would question the accuracy of your reporting of the conversation. Did you show her the entire thread or, as is your tendency, did you take a piece of what I said and copy it into an email for her abridging it to make me sound like I think women are inferior? Either way...you should let her speak for herself instead of using her supposed thoughts to bolster your argument. stick to stating your own well reasoned thoughts...if she wants to participate in this discussion she can log on.

I know what was said and this person knows well the context of the discussion being had here, even though little knowledge is needed to know beforehand to read your comments the way they were read. I'm not going to get into a "oh yeah? Well you can go ask so and so if they said such and such" because that's really pretty unimportant. You don't care what somebody has to say about what you think any more than I care.

The only relevant thing here is the idea that women are limited, and should accept that, because they're women. While I think it's great what you've accomplished in 26 years and done what you've done with your life and experienced what you have in your time with bonfire, I don't believe that anybody ought to have an ascribed status just because some good ol boys would like you to believe that. The facts are far less important to me in this case, and if I have a little girl, I'm certainly not going to let them cloud my judgement or tell her what she can and can't do. Are women making 76% of what men are in some cases? Sure. Are companies in Chicago primarily led at the very top by men? Sure. Will I ever tell my daughter that she can't be something or do something or be the best at something because she's just a girl? Never. There are WAY too many cases that prove otherwise all around me, and I certainly hope no idea ever gets into my little girl's head that being a little girl is her greatest disadvantage.

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The facts are far less important to me in this case

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...and any other.

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Will I ever tell my daughter that she can't be something or do something or be the best at something because she's just a girl?

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What if your daughter wants to swing a hammer for a living?