https://deadline.com/2024/01/yellowstone-taylor-sheridan-empire-of-the-summer-moon-story-of-comanche-leader-quanah-wite-direct-bosque-ranch-1235797097/


oh hell yes.

I'm actually reading the book right now. It's amazing.

Sheridan as the writer/director kinda scares me. He's good on historical fiction, but adapting actual history? I hope he doesn't mess it up. I don't doubt he can do a good job. That said, the book is so good, it will be hard for anybody to do the story justice in a movie. You could potentially make 50 full length western movies on it's contents. A good writer could turn any 15 pages of the book into a thrilling western.

One thing is for sure. No matter what parts he chooses to tell. It will be very violent.

It's a sidebar, but I do think it's fascinating how EotSM is seen as unassailable history in some circles. It's a good read, but it's also full of conjecture and fiction. This isn't meant to be a criticism of the book or the writing, just my immediate thought was "Summer Moon disciples are going to be disappointed when Sheridan modifies the story told in the book."

Will there be extended scenes of horse reining/cutting?

Mike Elko said:

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Will there be extended scenes of horse reining/cutting?

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Right after they dedicate half of the show to a whiny Indian woman that nobody likes.

Leggo My Elko said:

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I'm actually reading the book right now. It's amazing.

Sheridan as the writer/director kinda scares me. He's good on historical fiction, but adapting actual history? I hope he doesn't mess it up. I don't doubt he can do a good job. That said, the book is so good, it will be hard for anybody to do the story justice in a movie. You could potentially make 50 full length western movies on it's contents. A good writer could turn any 15 pages of the book into a thrilling western.

One thing is for sure. No matter what parts he chooses to tell. It will be very violent.

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I just don't want to see anything involving what the Comanche did to settler's babies (often in front of their mothers).

If I remember correctly, there was a story about a captive woman's infant being tied behind a horse and dragged back and forth through briar patches or thorny bushes...she could only watch as it screamed and the Comanche laughed. Apologies if I am crossing my stories.

jeffk said:

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It's a sidebar, but I do think it's fascinating how EotSM is seen as unassailable history in some circles. It's a good read, but it's also full of conjecture and fiction. This isn't meant to be a criticism of the book or the writing, just my immediate thought was "Summer Moon disciples are going to be disappointed when Sheridan modifies the story told in the book."

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Just curious if you have any examples of this? I know relying on first hand accounts isn't always 100% accurate but was wondering if you had any specifics?

El Gallo Blanco said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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I'm actually reading the book right now. It's amazing.

Sheridan as the writer/director kinda scares me. He's good on historical fiction, but adapting actual history? I hope he doesn't mess it up. I don't doubt he can do a good job. That said, the book is so good, it will be hard for anybody to do the story justice in a movie. You could potentially make 50 full length western movies on it's contents. A good writer could turn any 15 pages of the book into a thrilling western.

One thing is for sure. No matter what parts he chooses to tell. It will be very violent.

---

I just don't want to see anything involving what the Comanche did to settler's babies (often in front of their mothers).

If I remember correctly, there was a story about a captive woman's infant being tied behind a horse and dragged back and forth through briar patches or thorny bushes...she could only watch as it screamed and the Comanche laughed. Apologies if I am crossing my stories.

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This is accurate. The Comanches were absolute irredeemable savages who all belong in hell

I worry about any sort of TV adaptation that tries to make a softer, humanized version. That's not who they were.

TresPuertas said:

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El Gallo Blanco said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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I'm actually reading the book right now. It's amazing.

Sheridan as the writer/director kinda scares me. He's good on historical fiction, but adapting actual history? I hope he doesn't mess it up. I don't doubt he can do a good job. That said, the book is so good, it will be hard for anybody to do the story justice in a movie. You could potentially make 50 full length western movies on it's contents. A good writer could turn any 15 pages of the book into a thrilling western.

One thing is for sure. No matter what parts he chooses to tell. It will be very violent.

---

I just don't want to see anything involving what the Comanche did to settler's babies (often in front of their mothers).

If I remember correctly, there was a story about a captive woman's infant being tied behind a horse and dragged back and forth through briar patches or thorny bushes...she could only watch as it screamed and the Comanche laughed. Apologies if I am crossing my stories.

---

This is accurate. The Comanches were absolute irredeemable savages who all belong in hell

I worry about any sort of TV adaptation that tries to make a softer, humanized version. That's not who they were.

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Even though it's complete fiction, and a horror movie..."Bone Tomahawk" may be the closest cinematic portrayal or depiction of their unimaginable brutality and lust for enemy's blood (yes, I know the movie didn't involve Comanche). I have heard sex with dismembered, mutilated bodies was common.

Yeah, we actually had a really good discussion about the book a few different times on the TexAgs history board. The search feature is screwing up for me right now on my phone, but I know there's a couple of older threads there somewhere.

The biggest gripe I had in reading the book was that, from the outset, Gwynne elevates traditional Western views on what "civilization" entails and, because the Comanche didn't check a few of those boxes, they were considered lesser and savage. He spends some time talking about how the Comanche nation was organized and functioned, but his understanding of their sociology seems pretty limited. I know Gwynne put a lot of effort into tracking down firsthand accounts of the interactions between white folk and Comanches, but none of those accounts are from the Comanche perspective, which is a pretty big oversight/blindspot. Conflict between the white settlers and the Comanche were absolutely brutal, and I have no issue with how those were portrayed, but only letting a single side tell the story isn't something that can be ignored. As far as particular errors, I remember reading that the accuracy of a few of the sources Gwynne used to write the book have been called into question and he definitely bungles a lot of the description of Comanche societies and culture. If you're looking for a better historical telling of the people and time period, I think Pekka Hamalainen's "The Comanche Empire" is worth reading.

Here's a cool short read on the time period of Texas independence if anyone is interested. Speaks to the violence of the time and the complex systems of alliances and long-standing grievances as well.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/27088795.pdf?casa_token=3OCzzl-TAg4AAAAA:Pj_hBvaPVC_f740pW4aLn7BlOrwgg5lSvU4w3NxSCoLvWgGZNi_kEeKs3lsaBOySaKJpZraru8mCuUNiB-AaxvyNFJxJXepSmX-QOrP2HCFJpaW2hYs

Quote:

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Gwynne elevates traditional Western views on what "civilization" entails and, because the Comanche didn't check a few of those boxes, they were considered lesser and savage.

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The Comanche were considered savage because they were savage. Their existence consisted of preying on Mexicans, Texans, Spanish, Apache, Tonkawa, Caddo, or anyone else around them. They made war upon others, raped & murdered & stole children.

A civilization or culture that exists merely to make war on others & creates little to nothing IS a lesser civilization. It isn't wrong or racist to say some cultures are inferior to others, it's just politically incorrect.

Edit: I would like to know more about Comanche society/culture if Gwynne left things out.

javajaws said:

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Mike Elko said:

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Will there be extended scenes of horse reining/cutting?

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Right after they dedicate half of the show to a whiny Indian woman that nobody likes.

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And seemingly getting tackled every other day.

Here's another good short read on the complexity of Comanche raiding and warfare. Sorry the link is so long. I definitely think there were aspects of the Comanche civilization that can be described as being savage. Similar accusations could reasonably aimed at the Spanish, Mexican, and Texan civilizations during the time period. It's a complex discussion, and I'll stop adding to it after this because I don't want to keep derailing the thread. (My first post wasn't meant to be a derailment, but it definitely fits that bill, so apologies.)

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/51797265/Rivaya2014ComRaidCaptPop-libre.pdf?1487117495=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DA_Different_Look_at_Native_American_Depo.pdf&Expires=1705708156&Signature=SyBGrDBW4JDFmURtiNRp7MWTqPN19Iy4Yui5LRSdT~~rwFmkfFHIxcF1X79rgoGaZ9aUGkvb~iQA2~T5GPoIH9Y6qOFfS4aDBR0P9N12Fdd6DN9HjuRPUbn6LAGBXUjki~7tZZ7EZwAJzYoHKsBi5iuzneaIoYpTGJ5pudBToH9kshav2fc~ryxsteNSE-viYGmbsExjD~ylQXupKC81xzMBf9xJVZW7lixlzm-9o3W9a8Kd0vrWZAv15jT3x0FZcFaCHNNYfxfb9xoQaTqb0VVWetYim9fr8VHTcL2cKpUr0qtOuIYsakz6rCtSEAn3eZNV-68GNiIr62g0gmXaCg__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

I fully expect them to butcher this. Hollywood has lost all benefit of the doubt.

Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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I fully expect them to butcher this. Hollywood has lost all benefit of the doubt.

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Taylor Sheridan was just on Joe Rogan's podcast and it was probably the best interview I've heard in a while. If anyone deserves benefit of the doubt, it's him. He seems very against sugar coating just to placate the masses, although he did say that Sicario was like the PG version of what is actually going on (after doing extensive research with LE and diff groups on both sides of the border), so we'll see. You obviously can't show babies being dismembered by Comanche in front of their screaming mothers, so it will be sugarcoated to some degree I guess.

All that to say, he pretty much seems like he can't stand the world of Hollywood and doesn't fit in and pretty much does what he wants, within reason.

i loved his interview on Rogan, and think if he had his way he'd make this the way it should be or close as it can be.

but nobody will ever let him get away with it. The cartels are PG compared to the Comanches

TresPuertas said:

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i loved his interview on Rogan, and think if he had his way he'd make this the way it should be or close as it can be.

but nobody will ever let him get away with it. The cartels are PG compared to the Comanches

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Yep. Maybe 10 years ago this gets made the way it should. Now, putting indigenous people in bad light will cause trouble. Great Father bad.

TresPuertas said:

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i loved his interview on Rogan, and think if he had his way he'd make this the way it should be or close as it can be.

but nobody will ever let him get away with it. The cartels are PG compared to the Comanches

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Good pts, will be interesting to see. I could even see him doing it from Quanah Parker's perspective, which would be interesting. They truly did believe unimaginably brutal war needed to be waged against anyone and everyone. If he goes that route, I hope it's still a fair and somewhat accurate portrayal.

Also, he seems to have a mild obsession with the Comanche. Love this movie..