Forgot about that
***** Ant-Man: Quantumania Spoiler Thread *****
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Last: 1 yr ago by jeffk
I think this movie, like Thor: Love and Thunder, learned the wrong lesson from the success Ragnarok. They put Ant-Man in a different world and took him away from the previous movies. That's something Thor needed. Ant-Man didn't. We already loved him, his family, Louis, and size changing shenanigans. The best parts of previous movies were him interacting with the real world while small, something that didn't happen at all in Quantumania. It was all just running or flying though CGI backgrounds.
Also, if you are going to make up rules for your world, at least follow them. It was well established that you had to wear the suit, including helmet when shrunk or large in previous movies. That's a rule this movie broke with Scott and Cassie removing helmets while large. Also, Cassie was wearing Converse with her suit, something my daughter loved, but how does that work with Pym tech?
Also, if you are going to make up rules for your world, at least follow them. It was well established that you had to wear the suit, including helmet when shrunk or large in previous movies. That's a rule this movie broke with Scott and Cassie removing helmets while large. Also, Cassie was wearing Converse with her suit, something my daughter loved, but how does that work with Pym tech?
I don't think it's right when people say they should have stuck to the same formula. If that had happened, we'd probably be here saying "they should have taken a big swing, why is it so formulaic?". I think it just wasn't handled particularly well. There's nothing that creative or inventive about this movie or the Quantum Realm.
I think this movie is a combo of:
- Not having a real Ant-Man story to tell here (we already know he'd do anything for Cassie). These movies used to be so focused on character.
- A new incredible world, but it mostly looks like Sakaar or any other Guardians planet
- Upping the stakes, but also, nothing happens (biggest change is that Scott is a little scared now - great)
- Not as funny or fun as the last two
- It's a Kang launchpad, but also, he gets beaten by ants. (Who cares if there are 1000 other Kangs? Maybe we just need 1000 more ants?)
- The re-written ending makes more sense than stranding them again, but having a portal pop up is very weak
So it's an uninteresting, weirdly-paced, unfun little adventure where the characters you love don't really do much, the new villain gets the highlights but then also gets ****ed by some ants, but they tease more goofy forms of that same villain in the post-credits.
I may be too harsh, but I think Peyton Reed was not the right guy to tell this story. Kang was cool, and I thought they actually pulled off this version of MODOK, but everything else was been-there, done-that. Ants, giant form, gotta save Cassie, etc. Pretty generic. The "mania" was pretty tame.
And unfortunately for Marvel, this is impacting the box office big time. Not enough people are recommending it, so it's a true "wait until streaming" type of movie.
I think this movie is a combo of:
- Not having a real Ant-Man story to tell here (we already know he'd do anything for Cassie). These movies used to be so focused on character.
- A new incredible world, but it mostly looks like Sakaar or any other Guardians planet
- Upping the stakes, but also, nothing happens (biggest change is that Scott is a little scared now - great)
- Not as funny or fun as the last two
- It's a Kang launchpad, but also, he gets beaten by ants. (Who cares if there are 1000 other Kangs? Maybe we just need 1000 more ants?)
- The re-written ending makes more sense than stranding them again, but having a portal pop up is very weak
So it's an uninteresting, weirdly-paced, unfun little adventure where the characters you love don't really do much, the new villain gets the highlights but then also gets ****ed by some ants, but they tease more goofy forms of that same villain in the post-credits.
I may be too harsh, but I think Peyton Reed was not the right guy to tell this story. Kang was cool, and I thought they actually pulled off this version of MODOK, but everything else was been-there, done-that. Ants, giant form, gotta save Cassie, etc. Pretty generic. The "mania" was pretty tame.
And unfortunately for Marvel, this is impacting the box office big time. Not enough people are recommending it, so it's a true "wait until streaming" type of movie.
After End Game, you expect them to follow rules?
Did he leave before the movie ended or something?
Just saw the movie this afternoon, and liked it! So far, it's the best of the post-Endgame movies.
Something I just thought about, I the audio book, Scott talks about being turned into a baby by hulk, which means he spilled the beans on time travel. You would think that would be a super secrett, pinky swear, only the Avengers can know, don't you dare tell the feds kind of thing. Revealing time travel to the world is a huge game changer that could not be a good thing.
An L of an Ag said:
Just saw the movie this afternoon, and liked it! So far, it's the best of the post-Endgame movies.
I unfortunately decided to spend 2.5 hrs of my Sunday watching this terrible movie. Idk why I keep doing this to myself. MCU has proven they don't care about their films anymore, they just want to keep oiling the money machine with idiots like me who think 'this time it will be different.'
For the love of god, can they make ANY practical effects anymore? Is anyone having fun making this? Because I'm certainly not having fun wataching it.
As for news:
This movie is getting crushed by word of mouth and rightfully so. Disney already murdered Star Wars and based on the path the current Phase 4(5?) slate of films have gone, I'd say the MCU is marching towards the same conclusion.
For the love of god, can they make ANY practical effects anymore? Is anyone having fun making this? Because I'm certainly not having fun wataching it.
As for news:
[url=https://variety.com/2023/film/box-office/ant-man-quantumania-box-office-drop-concern-marvel-1235536265/][/url]Quote:
Ticket sales were down 69% from its $105 million debut, resulting in the biggest second-weekend drop in the MCU's history per Variety.
This movie is getting crushed by word of mouth and rightfully so. Disney already murdered Star Wars and based on the path the current Phase 4(5?) slate of films have gone, I'd say the MCU is marching towards the same conclusion.
Phase 4 included Spider-Man No Way Home, which made $814 million (3rd all time), Wakanda Forever ($453 million / 24th all time); Dr. Strange 2 ($411 million / 36th all time); Spider-Man Far From Home ($390 million / 45th all-time) and Thor 4 ($343 million / 65th all time).M.C. Swag said:
I unfortunately decided to spend 2.5 hrs of my Sunday watching this terrible movie. Idk why I keep doing this to myself. MCU has proven they don't care about their films anymore, they just want to keep oiling the money machine with idiots like me who think 'this time it will be different.'
For the love of god, can they make ANY practical effects anymore? Is anyone having fun making this? Because I'm certainly not having fun wataching it.
As for news:[url=https://variety.com/2023/film/box-office/ant-man-quantumania-box-office-drop-concern-marvel-1235536265/][/url]Quote:
Ticket sales were down 69% from its $105 million debut, resulting in the biggest second-weekend drop in the MCU's history per Variety.
This movie is getting crushed by word of mouth and rightfully so. Disney already murdered Star Wars and based on the path the current Phase 4(5?) slate of films have gone, I'd say the MCU is marching towards the same conclusion.
Quantumania was a bad choice to introduce Kang and shift tonally from the success of the first 2 movies of the series, and its box office is showcasing that, but it's hard to say that Phase 4 wasn't a big success financially.
Even in 2021 when people were still scared of going out, Marvel had 3 of the top 4 movies at the box office - No Way Home #1, Shang Chi #2 and Black Widow #4. Eternals was the real stinker ($164 m) before Quantumania.
I have little doubt GOTG3 will cruise to $400 m. What happens next with The Marvels, the new Cap, Fantastic Four, and beyond is where the real question lies.
Life is better with a beagle
I have no doubt the MCU will continue to make money. I didn't mean to imply that they wont dominate the box office...but the quality is clearly just sinking lower and lower. Eventually people will stop caring. Or at least they should.
Gotcha, my bad.
Life is better with a beagle
The Marvel stories and characters were initially compelling. That's what people gravitated towards. You have a captive audience of people that grew up loving the comic characters and were rewarded by good productions and a compelling story line that tied the movies together.M.C. Swag said:
I have no doubt the MCU will continue to make money. I didn't mean to imply that they wont dominate the box office...but the quality is clearly just sinking lower and lower. Eventually people will stop caring. Or at least they should.
Now they're trying to CGI their way out of the box they are in. It seems whomever was initially in charge of the productions allowed others in the room or got lazy. We see this all the time with series that drag on. More and more cooks in the kitchen thinking they have the answers or trying to emulate what worked in the past.
TLDR; Hollywood is lazy and it shows.
Nobody cares. Work Harder
Agreed. The problem with the MCU now is that they are running out of top shelf source material. By and large, comics are volume over quality. You'll get great stories and storylines that pop up here and there, but the narratives are usually of mediocre quality. Once you churn through the really compelling stuff like Civil War, Spiderman's backstory, Dark Phoenix, and the Infinity War, then you're just left with the mediocre leftovers. Sometimes you can use source material and greatly improve on it, like the movies did with Guardians of the Galaxy, but most of Hollywood isn't that talented.Quote:
TLDR; Hollywood is lazy and it shows.
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Idk if I believe that. I think there's definitely a compelling story underneath this mess. Kang absolutely could be a villain worthy of following Thanos. Ant Man struggling to recapture lost time with his daughter IS an interesting story dilemma...but like, not like this.
I feel like the biggest problem with the MCU is:
a) Flooding the zone - they are simply oversaturating the market with marvel STUFF.
b) Focus - idk how much Feige has penned the overarching narrative down, but this whole thing feels aimless. The latest Thor movie was an abomination that im not sure had any reason to exist. Like, was that really the best way to deploy Chris Hemsworth? I think he's only under contract for like, 1 or 2 more movies and you fired one of those bullets on Love and Thunder? What was the point?
It's no doubt really difficult to juggle a storyboard this massive, but in the words of the philosopher Don Draper; THATS WHAT THE MONEY IS FOR. Disney is raking in tons of cash from these movies. They shouldn't have any problem finding the time and resources in developing a quality, cohesive story, post Thanos.
I feel like the biggest problem with the MCU is:
a) Flooding the zone - they are simply oversaturating the market with marvel STUFF.
b) Focus - idk how much Feige has penned the overarching narrative down, but this whole thing feels aimless. The latest Thor movie was an abomination that im not sure had any reason to exist. Like, was that really the best way to deploy Chris Hemsworth? I think he's only under contract for like, 1 or 2 more movies and you fired one of those bullets on Love and Thunder? What was the point?
It's no doubt really difficult to juggle a storyboard this massive, but in the words of the philosopher Don Draper; THATS WHAT THE MONEY IS FOR. Disney is raking in tons of cash from these movies. They shouldn't have any problem finding the time and resources in developing a quality, cohesive story, post Thanos.
Thor 4 would have been a much better vehicle for introducing Kang, especially if you were going to kill off Natalie Portman anyways. Not sure how the story would have changed, but even have him just showing up at the end of the universe place would have been pretty awesome.
Life is better with a beagle
Agreed - plenty of good stories left IMO. Even some of the great MCU films weren't necessarily great Marvel stories (Shield being infiltrated by Hydra, for example - more of a concept than a storyline, though the Winter Soldier comics story arc was great).
I think they've quit focusing on character as much, and that's a problem. Neither Ant-Man nor Wasp had a satisfying arc in Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantumania. The story needed to be tighter. If you're going to dedicate that much time to the Freedom Fighters, then Cassie's arc/involvement/development needs to be a lot clearer. Etc.
I'd say this applies to a lot of the Phase 4 products. Spoilers just in case anyone is running behind:
Now, that's not truly unique to Phase 4. Guardians 2 added more characters and left some (like Drax) sitting around with nothing to do. Iron Man 2 is often criticized for setting up Shield and Black Widow. But at least those movies still had arcs for their main characters.
It's like they didn't really want to make an Ant-Man movie, so you got a disjointed mess instead (first half is Janet / Scott / Cassie, second half is Kang, nobody is truly satisfied).
I think they've quit focusing on character as much, and that's a problem. Neither Ant-Man nor Wasp had a satisfying arc in Ant-Man & The Wasp: Quantumania. The story needed to be tighter. If you're going to dedicate that much time to the Freedom Fighters, then Cassie's arc/involvement/development needs to be a lot clearer. Etc.
I'd say this applies to a lot of the Phase 4 products. Spoilers just in case anyone is running behind:
- Wakanda Forever [sp]had great Shuri/Namor stuff, but there wasn't enough time to go around for Riri/Okoye/Nakia/Aneka and they all got a little underfed, or got underwhelming superhero reveals.
- Doctor Strange 2 - time spent on multiverse cameos could have been spent developing Strange or Wong or America Chavez
- Eternals, way too many characters
- Moon Knight, Layla got a superhero suit but we never really saw her origin, or Marc's origin for that matter
Now, that's not truly unique to Phase 4. Guardians 2 added more characters and left some (like Drax) sitting around with nothing to do. Iron Man 2 is often criticized for setting up Shield and Black Widow. But at least those movies still had arcs for their main characters.
It's like they didn't really want to make an Ant-Man movie, so you got a disjointed mess instead (first half is Janet / Scott / Cassie, second half is Kang, nobody is truly satisfied).
I don't think it should be difficult to juggle the storyboard. It's all just a matter of scale. Start with the end in mind, find the key plot points to get you and your characters there, and then identity what movies it all happens in. Give the writers of the movies a lane to stay in with, "This is your part and where we need you to go/end up with so and so," and then let them get there on their own. Keep tabs on the individual scripts to make sure that happens, but other than that, stay back and trust your creators.
It's like being any kind of executive leader. You don't need to necessarily be involved in and see all the minutae because you're directing and seeing things from 50k feet. Everyone else's big picture understanding is your minor detail.
It's like being any kind of executive leader. You don't need to necessarily be involved in and see all the minutae because you're directing and seeing things from 50k feet. Everyone else's big picture understanding is your minor detail.
Kang could have offered Thor more time with Jane. maybe he needs the Bifrost/Stormbreaker to charge his spaceship.The Porkchop Express said:
Thor 4 would have been a much better vehicle for introducing Kang, especially if you were going to kill off Natalie Portman anyways. Not sure how the story would have changed, but even have him just showing up at the end of the universe place would have been pretty awesome.
ABATTBQ11 said:
Give the writers of the movies a lane to stay in with, "This is your part and where we need you to go/end up with so and so," and then let them get there on their own. Keep tabs on the individual scripts to make sure that happens, but other than that, stay back and trust your creators.
From what I hear, that's what Marvel does. When they met with the Russos for Cap 2, the only "must haves" in the script (from what I recall) is that Hydra had infiltrated Shield, and by the end of the movie Shield would be destroyed. But that's about it as far as requirements or guidance or anything. I think they were the ones to request Black Widow, and Nick Fury, and maybe even the Winter Soldier storyline.
I've read some interviews with the writer of Quantumania and it sounds like the same thing. IIRC Peyton Reed wanted to use Kang as the villain, and to change the tone and go more serious, and they were given the green light. It wasn't a Kang mandate because they had an Avengers film to hype up. Same for She-Hulk (they requested Daredevil, not the other way around), etc.
That's what makes it more odd. If executive meddling isn't pushing Kang into this film, then perhaps the filmmakers just weren't as interested in the Ant Fam as they were Kang. And that's pretty lame!
I just saw this movie today. Put me in the MODOK was well done camp as well as the This was a misfire by Marvel camp.
I also thought Bill Murray was a waste and poor casting. This movie already had a lot of big names attached so why add Bill Murray in this way?
This was the worst of the Ant-Man movies. I did enjoy the scenery and variety of ships, humanoids, aliens, etc.
Any great likelihood that the calamity now facing the Earth with this Kang gone, is anything other than more Kangs?
I also thought Bill Murray was a waste and poor casting. This movie already had a lot of big names attached so why add Bill Murray in this way?
This was the worst of the Ant-Man movies. I did enjoy the scenery and variety of ships, humanoids, aliens, etc.
Any great likelihood that the calamity now facing the Earth with this Kang gone, is anything other than more Kangs?
Agree. They should have cut out the Bill Murray section entirely and just had Hank, Janet, and Hope go directly to the power core which is where they ended up anyways. Use that extra time to show us, instead of telling us, the exile of Kang and how/why/what he sees time so differently. He said "I see time differently" to Janet like 3 times with no explanation of what that meant.bearamedic99 said:
I just saw this movie today. Put me in the MODOK was well done camp as well as the This was a misfire by Marvel camp.
I also thought Bill Murray was a waste and poor casting. This movie already had a lot of big names attached so why add Bill Murray in this way?
This was the worst of the Ant-Man movies. I did enjoy the scenery and variety of ships, humanoids, aliens, etc.
Any great likelihood that the calamity now facing the Earth with this Kang gone, is anything other than more Kangs?
Kang was the star of this movie, and giving us more of him makes it better.
Something else I just thought of, Darren Cross knows how pym particles work, he even reversed engineered them to make the yellowjacket suit. He should've been able to create more for Kang with all the technology available to them.
Kang wouldn't let him speak in his presence
His name is
Mechanized Organism Designed Only (for) Killing
Not
Mechanized Organism Designed Only (for) Killing Plus Pym Particles Production
Mechanized Organism Designed Only (for) Killing
Not
Mechanized Organism Designed Only (for) Killing Plus Pym Particles Production
bearamedic99 said:
His name is
Mechanized Organism Designed Only (for) Killing
Not
Mechanized Organism Designed Only (for) Killing Plus Pym Particles Production
Pretty sure everybody got in on PPP at some point
Quad Dog said:Agree. They should have cut out the Bill Murray section entirely and just had Hank, Janet, and Hope go directly to the power core which is where they ended up anyways. Use that extra time to show us, instead of telling us, the exile of Kang and how/why/what he sees time so differently. He said "I see time differently" to Janet like 3 times with no explanation of what that meant.bearamedic99 said:
I just saw this movie today. Put me in the MODOK was well done camp as well as the This was a misfire by Marvel camp.
I also thought Bill Murray was a waste and poor casting. This movie already had a lot of big names attached so why add Bill Murray in this way?
This was the worst of the Ant-Man movies. I did enjoy the scenery and variety of ships, humanoids, aliens, etc.
Any great likelihood that the calamity now facing the Earth with this Kang gone, is anything other than more Kangs?
Kang was the star of this movie, and giving us more of him makes it better.
There's an alternate ending where Bill Murray shows up with rebels to help defeat Kang. They cut it.
I wonder if it has to do with him being me too'd? they just left his character as a slime ball instead of redeeming him.Quote:
There's an alternate ending where Bill Murray shows up with rebels to help defeat Kang. They cut it.
Finally saw it this afternoon. First, I complete get the common criticisms of the movie, especially removing major aspects of prior Antman movies that made it such an engaging and likable character. Similarly, the quantum realm being just a ton of CG landscapes wasn't nearly as fun as seeing the size of familiar objects and setting manipulated.
That said, it was still really enjoyable. The cast carried the movie and their interaction was a lot of fun to watch. Also, this was pretty obviously a vehicle to introduce Kang as a realistic threat to our own universe and it accomplished that. More Jonathan Majors is a good thing and I'm glad we didn't fall into the intro and then kill a strong antagonist in a single film Marvel trope.
That said, it was still really enjoyable. The cast carried the movie and their interaction was a lot of fun to watch. Also, this was pretty obviously a vehicle to introduce Kang as a realistic threat to our own universe and it accomplished that. More Jonathan Majors is a good thing and I'm glad we didn't fall into the intro and then kill a strong antagonist in a single film Marvel trope.
Finally saw Antman and came away very impressed. I don't get the hate on this one at all. Sure, the was a CGI gray mess at times but it also checked on the boxes. It was funny, great actions, likable characters, good villains, stakes (I didn't feel like any character was 100% safe to make it out), built an fun world, and ultimately made me care. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a father daughter story, but it was one of the best parts of Endgame (Antman & Ironman) and continued in this one.
The father and daughter vibe from the two you mentioned, and Hawkeye too, was also the best part of Endgame for me. The problem then with Antman 3 was that I didn't buy the new actress as Scott's daughter. Not her look nor the way her character was portrayed. Other than "star appeal" I can't grasp why they wouldn't re-cast the actress from Endgame in the third movie, she seemed to be the perfect age for it. That really took away the sentimentality of the relationship; Scott's scene where he finds her after he escapes the Quantum Realm in Endgame is the best acting I've ever seen by Paul Rudd, and the actress who plays the teenaged Cassie in it is right there with him.Farmer1906 said:
Finally saw Antman and came away very impressed. I don't get the hate on this one at all. Sure, the was a CGI gray mess at times but it also checked on the boxes. It was funny, great actions, likable characters, good villains, stakes (I didn't feel like any character was 100% safe to make it out), built an fun world, and ultimately made me care. Maybe I'm just a sucker for a father daughter story, but it was one of the best parts of Endgame (Antman & Ironman) and continued in this one.
The rest of the casting I enjoyed, particularly MIchael Douglas' take on Hank Pym of just kind of rolling with the punches after all he's seen in the past few years. The only other thing I disliked about the movie was the dragging it out about who we're all scared of. Rational, intelilgent adults like the Pyms don't need to keep making these one line ominous statements about what everyone's so afraid of. Just spit it out already.
Life is better with a beagle
Agree with both your main points. Can't believe i forgot Hawkeye and his kids. I get they were trying to build him up, but it was annoying and lame.
Lilly looking pretty rough with that short haircut. Whoever is telling her it is a good idea needs to stop it.
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jeffk said:
More Jonathan Majors is a good thing and I'm glad we didn't fall into the intro and then kill a strong antagonist in a single film Marvel trope.
oopsie
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